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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 5/9/2003 6:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi borg, just a quick 2 cents to throw in.
quote:
But nowhere in the Bible do i see that Christ came to die for everyone's sins, save Jn 3:16, and in light of Scripture, can this even be logically concluded? Where does it say that Christ has come to give the free gift of salvation to everyone?
The verses you cite (Eph 5:25; John 10:15, etc.) say that Christ died for the Church, but what they do not say is that Christ did not die for those who are not part of the Church, and that's what you would need to infer limited atonement from these verses. Now as you admit, Jn 3:16-17 seems to say that Christ died for "the world". So it seems we have at least one verse that teaches that Jesus died for everyone's sins and no verses to the contrary.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 5/9/2003 8:17 PM (GMT -6) | | thanks for responding alan. what i was getting at, is that nowhere in the Bible does it clearly say that Christ came to die for the whole world. rather we have a collection of verses that say He died for the sheep, the church, hence the elect, and though it doesn't say that He didn't die for the rest of the world, why are we to assume this? i do believe in limited atonement, and as far as jn 3:16, we need to interprut scripture in light of scripture. the word "kosmos" used in Jn 3:16 for "world" is translated 7 different times throughout the Bible, and perhaps we are too eager to think that Christ died for everyone.
Acts 17:24, the wholeniverse
John 13:1 the earth
John 12:31, the world system
Romans 3:19, the whole human race
Rom 3:6, world minus believers
Rom 11:12 gentiles in contrast to jews
John 1:29, 1 Cor. 5:19, believers only.
grace and peace,
borg
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/10/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
thanks for responding alan. what i was getting at, is that nowhere in the Bible does it clearly say that Christ came to die for the whole world. rather we have a collection of verses that say He died for the sheep, the church, hence the elect, and though it doesn't say that He didn't die for the rest of the world, why are we to assume this? i do believe in limited atonement, and as far as jn 3:16, we need to interprut scripture in light of scripture. the word "kosmos" used in Jn 3:16 for "world" is translated 7 different times throughout the Bible, and perhaps we are too eager to think that Christ died for everyone.
Acts 17:24, the wholeniverse
John 13:1 the earth
John 12:31, the world system
Romans 3:19, the whole human race
Rom 3:6, world minus believers
Rom 11:12 gentiles in contrast to jews
John 1:29, 1 Cor. 5:19, believers only.
grace and peace,
borg
ANOTHER track that can be pursued is this: WHAT has the preaching of the Church been all these years. I'm not interested in anything totally made-up-fresh (except food). Augustine, they say, imported the "imputed guilt" idea from his pagan days--and I buy that interpretation of his theology. But it seems very much the witness and preaching and life of the Church that Christ came to redeem by assuming, dying and raising all "far as the curse is found." (Isaac Watts) The Feasts of the Orthodox Church seem to say this very strongly too.
I'm NOT an "anihilationalist." Were I it might be easier for me to see Christ's act more partial. But as it is (I beleive), God's love is for everyone, whether they want it or not...and whether they can stand it or not. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/10/2003 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
thanks for responding alan. what i was getting at, is that nowhere in the Bible does it clearly say that Christ came to die for the whole world. rather we have a collection of verses that say He died for the sheep, the church, hence the elect, and though it doesn't say that He didn't die for the rest of the world, why are we to assume this? i do believe in limited atonement, and as far as jn 3:16, we need to interprut scripture in light of scripture. the word "kosmos" used in Jn 3:16 for "world" is translated 7 different times throughout the Bible, and perhaps we are too eager to think that Christ died for everyone.
Acts 17:24, the wholeniverse
John 13:1 the earth
John 12:31, the world system
Romans 3:19, the whole human race
Rom 3:6, world minus believers
Rom 11:12 gentiles in contrast to jews
John 1:29, 1 Cor. 5:19, believers only.
grace and peace,
borg
ANOTHER track that can be pursued is this: WHAT has the preaching of the Church been all these years. I'm not interested in anything totally made-up-fresh (except food). Augustine, they say, imported the "imputed guilt" idea from his pagan days--and I buy that interpretation of his theology. But it seems very much the witness and preaching and life of the Church that Christ came to redeem by assuming, dying and raising all "far as the curse is found." (Isaac Watts) The Feasts of the Orthodox Church seem to say this very strongly too.
I'm NOT an "anihilationalist." Were I it might be easier for me to see Christ's act more partial. But as it is (I beleive), God's love is for everyone, whether they want it or not...and whether they can stand it or not.
agreed, we need to decide which parts of scripture do we use to interpret scripture in light of. For this, a consideration of Christian tradition is important. Although, as shown by Dorrien and others there has been a lot of diversity in Christian Theology over the years, one can always find precedents that will support the position that one currently takes.
This is why I tend to characterize theology not as dealing with absolute Truths, but rather as trying to reconcile one's received world-view with that of Yeshua of Nazareth as recorded in the Gospels and understood by the early church. Okay, so let us treat the fact that the future is open in some respects, especially including our salvations or whether we decide to have Nazi Holocausts or what-not. That in itself doesn't say too much, since its implications depend upon just what sorts of things are open or should be taken as given, predetermined. The idea of Theology as irreparably trying to reconcile differences in world-views is descriptively accurate of Theology during the Medieval Ages, whereby it was, as C.S. Peirce characterizes it in his "How to make our ideas more clear", attempts to reconcile one's faith in Aristotle with one's faith in the Church.
So when I embrace OVTheology, I feel I am doing Liberation Theology. I am being liberated from the aspects of Fundamentalism still present in my White Neo-Evangelical religious heritage. I do not look to Systematic Theology as laying a foundation for Christian Unity, but see it rather as a task we are called to since Theology can and should be a source of inspiration for innovative answers to the ever-present problem of order. Seeking to improve upon our received answers to the problem of order(whether it be in its ecclesiastical or secular forms) is an important way in which we help establish the Kingdom of God. If we see Theology as co-eternal with God and universal, then we instill undue status to our received theologies and may spawn infighting due to their differences.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 5/10/2003 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | borg:
quote:
within the NT, at least, i do not believe there are any verses that say specifically that Christ came to die for the whole world and that God loved the whole world, save the famous Jn3:16.
JET:
Rom 5:
quote:
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
To whom does Paul say this gift is brought? "All men" (v. 18).
Note, Paul first talks about the "group" to whom death came through sin: "all men" (vv. 12, 18); "the many" (vv. 15, 19).
This is the SAME GROUP to whom Paul says the gift is brought: "all men" (v. 18); "the many" (vv. 15, 19).
Who does Paul say will reign in life through Jesus Christ? Those who "receive" the "gift" (v. 17).
Sounds like Paul and John are in agreement.
quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Thanks,
JET
Edited by - JET on 05/10/2003 11:18:58 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 5/11/2003 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | thanks jet, you pointed out my obvious mistake. i thought i made it clear that i meant the Gospels, not the entire new testmant. i wrote something wrong, it's not what i meant. we do hear in the epistles and that Christ came to die for all men, but the epistles were written to believers, not non-believers. we as believers, in the letters, have the promise that Christ came to die for us, but what promise do non-believers have that Christ came to die for them. i've only seen John 3:16 within the Gospels that say He died for all men, but as i said, scripture needs to be inturpreted within scripture and i've already given my ideas for John 3:16.
grace and peace,
borg
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/11/2003 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
thanks jet, you pointed out my obvious mistake. i thought i made it clear that i meant the Gospels, not the entire new testmant. i wrote something wrong, it's not what i meant. we do hear in the epistles and that Christ came to die for all men, but the epistles were written to believers, not non-believers. we as believers, in the letters, have the promise that Christ came to die for us, but what promise do non-believers have that Christ came to die for them. i've only seen John 3:16 within the Gospels that say He died for all men, but as i said, scripture needs to be inturpreted within scripture and i've already given my ideas for John 3:16.
grace and peace,
borg
Borg, when you make the distinction between believers and non-believers, this is a distinction that is very important from within Calvinism. HOwever, from an OVTheism viewpoint, it isn't that clear-cut, since non-believers can become believers and believers can fall astray, unfortunately, permanently.
I think it is pretty clear that in the early church, the Gospel Accounts were required reading/hearing for seekers. I also believe that one would count the cost for years prior to becoming a Christian back then. I don't think they would have viewed the final outcome during those counting the cost years as predetermined and so saying the Gospels were written for believers doesn't hold water.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/11/2003 9:28:49 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/23/2003 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | Here you go, Ronald Ricketts. (Check out pages 3 and 14.) | | Back to Top | | |
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