 |
| 
Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 6/29/2002 7:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | Recently a friend was presenting his combatibilist position to me, which he defined as God ordaining our choices, but "mysteriously" we genuinely choose. In his thinking, God ordains the flavor of ice cream I will choose to eat after church on Sunday, citing Eph 1:11 as proof text. (My initial response to this was, "Then why doesn't God will me to sin less?  )
The point if this topic is not to debate Eph 1:11. Instead, I would like to share some thoughts I have on the limitations of LCFW.
First, I find my friends reasoning unconvincing. It strikes me that he is negating the choice, and the "mystery" he is referring to does not appear to exist. In this post, I will deal with the limitations of LCFW, and my next, the mystery.
Opponents of LCFW often talk of it as if it is some big thing that necessarily threatens God. However, I believe that at closure examination, this is not the case. LCFW appears to be limited as follows:
1. An individual's LCFW is limited by other creature's LCFW.
2. An individual's LCFW is limited, but not eliminated, by God's sovereign will.
3. An individual's LCFW is limited by their finitude.
The last case is important because it is how our LCFW necessarily requires God's infinite sovereign will. In understanding this tension, we can discover a fundamental insight into why LCFW is not a threat to God.
Because I have LCFW, I can choose to receive God's salvation, or not. Or, I can choose to sin, or not. However, I cannot save myself, nor can I make myself righteous. Enter God's sovereign will.
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Eph. 3:20-21 (NRSVA)
Any comments?
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 6/29/2002 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | | This post presents an arguement for LCFW based on experience. I will use what I call a "turn signal analogy."
We are all familar with the turn signals in our cars. Flip it up and turn right, down and turn left. Now, someone might tell you something new about the turn signal, such as "push it out and the high beems will go on". To this we might say, "That's very interesting, I did not know that." (It's just an analogy, stick with me  .) However, if someone were to say something blatantly contradictory like, "flip it up and turn left", we would rightly say object because we would know from experience that when we flip it up, the right turn light goes on.
Similarly, we have an experience of a certain amount of LCFW. We make choices. Often, God gives us no conscious insight into what those choices should be. Perhaps often we make choices contrary to God's revealed will in scripture. And finally, in scripture, God approaches us as IF we have real choices to make for which we are held accountable. Even if much of this is God speaking "baby talk" to us, he apparently is reinforcing our experience, nonetheless.
So, I would argue that our experience tells us that we have a degree of LCFW. However, some peole say that we do not have what appears to be LCFW, but instead, it is compatibalist free will, and in REALITY, God is mysteriously determining our choices for us.
To me, this is like the person who tells me to flip my turn signal up to turn left. All evidence suggests they are wrong.
Any thoughts?
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 6/29/2002 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | One more thought on the limitations of LCFW. (So far, I am enjoying engaging myself in a conversation.)
In the Bible, God challenges us to depend on Him -- to seek him out for what we need. Rather than a message of "God helps those who help themselves", he wants us to seek HIM out. We should look to him for the things we need to live (Mt 6). We should look to him when our enemies rise up against us. We should depend on Him as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death (ps 23). We should seek out His counsel. So, in a way, God appears to be asking us to give up our life (LCFW) to find it (Matt 16:25).
What do you think?
YBIC,
Winghead (Okay, now I will listen .)
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/29/2002 12:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Winghead: Any comments? Any thoughts? What do you think?
TIM: A libertarian is an advocate of the doctrine of free will, as I understand it, they are a person who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty, especially of thought and action, have I got that right?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 7/5/2002 7:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
TIM: A libertarian is an advocate of the doctrine of free will, as I understand it, they are a person who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty, especially of thought and action, have I got that right?
No one can have absolute and unrestricted liberty. In the context of the Calvinist/Arminian/OV discussions, the question is raised on whether people have enough FW to resist God. In a similar fashion, are we really making choices or has God actually ordained them all for us? LCFW suggests that at least to some degree, we do actually make libertarian choices.
The OV goes a step further and asks whether God foreknows those choices (possibilities) exhaustively.
We need to use terms that accurately communicate an idea. When I first stated talking about free will, I thought it was sufficent to use the generic term, "free will". However, people have apparently further defined FW so I need to be more explicit and say "libertarian free will". On this board, at least, it appears that LCFW is generally accepted as something Arminians and Open Theists believe we have, and Calvinists believe we do not. Perhaps my definition of LFW is more retricted than others define it, but it strikes me that these limitations must be imposed.
In Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:01 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|