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¡Que Payaso!
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/1/2003 6:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | According to the NASB, Revelation 13:8 reads: All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Now, the NIV takes the phrase “foundation of the world” as modifying “the Lamb who has been slain.” It reads: All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
I am not sure what modifies what. Perhaps there is some ambiguity in the Greek text here. Not sure.
But Revelation 17:8 also says: And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come (NASB).
The NIV reads: The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Here, the two translations agree that the phrase “foundation of the world” modifies “the book of life.”
Have these verses been dealt with before on this board? If not…
It appears as though the names which appear in the Book of Life have either been there, or not been there, since the foundation of the world. This strongly suggests that the eternal destiny mof ankind has been settled (whether foreknown or predestined or what have you) for quite a long while.
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins
Edited by - payaso on 07/01/2003 11:12:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/2/2003 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Payaso
quote:
It appears as though the names which appear in the Book of Life have either been there, or not been there, since the foundation of the world. This strongly suggests that the eternal destiny mof ankind has been settled (whether foreknown or predestined or what have you) for quite a long while.
Ron
In most of the verses that reference "from the foundation of the world", my commentary (Pulpit) tends to say it refers to the Lamb of God, and not names written. But in my opinion if the phrase from the foundation is used refering to names written it could easily mean the Lamb's blood, who was slain from the foundation, covers all who have faith in the time period beginning from the foundation, like starting with Adam and Eve.
Payaso
quote:
This strongly suggests that the eternal destiny mof ankind has been settled (whether foreknown or predestined or what have you) for quite a long while.
Ron
I would think that all the verses that talk about names and situations being blotted out, some explicitly refering to God's book, would show that your interpretation of the names in the book being a settled thing with God lacks letting the whole tenor of truth inform your understanding.
Example:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
God Bless
Ron Sirkel | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/2/2003 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Ron,
I'll check other "foundations of the world" passages. Hadn't thought of that.
But even if, say, 95% of all passages which use the expression "foundation of the world" tie it to the "Lamb who has been slain" that does not require the expression to modify it in the other 5%. I mean there is nothing conceptually that demands all usages of "foundations..." refer to "Lamb...", is there?
quote:
...your interpretation of the names in the book being a settled thing with God lacks letting the whole tenor of truth inform your understanding.
But could this not go the other way around? I mean the Greek word order of Revelation 17:8 appears to say that "foundation of the world" modifies names written/not written in the Book of Life. And if not, what does "foundation of the world" modify in this passage? And if so, could we not just as easily say that this statement of the Book's settledness belongs to the tenor of truth which ought to inform our understanding of Revelation 3:5?
By the way, I am not approaching this from the perspective of "eternal security/conditional security" but rather as a potential objection to OV in that it suggests settled future events which depend on the excercise of free will. But perhaps the two issues cannot be seperated.
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins
Edited by - payaso on 07/02/2003 10:04:08 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/2/2003 5:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | Yes, Rev. 17:8 is troublesome, b/c in every version I have looked at, it is clear that "from the foundation of the world" is modifying the "Lamb's book of life." This verse says nothing about how Christ was slain from the foundation of the world...the New American Standard says: "they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/2/2003 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm sorry, that was the American Standard Version I quoted. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/2/2003 8:58 PM (GMT -6) | | The article linked at the bottom of this post examines the question of the proper translation of the phrase commonly rendered, "the foundation of the world." Essentially, it is this author's thesis that the word, "kataballo" and it's cognates are not usually meant as equivalent to "foundation," but rather to "casting/throwing down." Hence the phrase is more properly translated, "because of or in view of the disintegration/fall/casting down of the inhabitants."
In either case, the names written in the book are, as so rightly Ron pointed out, able to be blotted out by God, and even if we go with the traditional translation of this phrase, "from" can refer to the fall of man as well. As in, "Since the foundation of the world" meaning the names were added (and in some cases subtracted) in the time subsequent to the world's founding.
http://www.biblical-theology.com/omniscience2/meaning.htm
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/03/2003 02:03:31 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/2/2003 10:43 PM (GMT -6) | | That article looks pretty interesting. Thanks for the lead, John. I'll check it out and if I'm still not satisfied, I'll come back for more.
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/2/2003 11:14 PM (GMT -6) | | For anyone else who is interested in this, here is a link to the same article along with the footnotes and appendices.
www.house-church.net/wstaylor.htm
Also, here is a chapter from Elseth's book which the author refers to.
www.house-church.net/katabole.htm
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/3/2003 1:59 AM (GMT -6) | | There's many other verses in scripture about the book of life, a bunch of them pertaining to people's names being blotted out of the book.
We know that at judgement day, the book of life will contain the names of the elect. The question is, what was in the book of life when the world started? There's three options:
1. everyone's name (entered when you're born)
2. the names of the elect
3. no one's name (entered when you accept Christ)
From scripture we know:
A. God's grace is extended to all, everyone has the chance to become part of the "elect in Christ", yet many reject this
B. people's names can be blotted out of the book of life
Option 1 does NOT violate A and B (unbelievers names removed at death)
Option 2 DOES violate A and B
Option 3 does NOT violate A and B
I go with option 3, it's EASY to surrender to Jesus and get your name written in the lamb's book of life. It's possible to have your name subsequently blotted out of the book, but if you do it's because what you have willfully chosen. The least viable option is 2, the "traditional" view.
"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
-- George Santayana
Edited by - Laika on 07/03/2003 07:02:40 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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lone ranger
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 7/9/2003 7:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Payaso,
I'd like to throw out an idea for your consideration. My own dealings with scriptures, such as the one you have mentioned, were the very thing that broke me out of the Calvinistic mindset and opened up the OV to me. In fact, I was an OVer for a little over three years before I even knew "my belief" had a name. I had never read a book on it, I was simply in the process of rethinking my Calvinistic beliefs(through scripture)when I happened on a new thought(at least to me). After having said all of this, I would now submit a very "unorthodox openview"(talk about oxymorons ) concept which may or may not be helpful to you.
Consider, for a moment, Laika's option #2 (above) to be true (the elect's names). Now consider the elect to be the Jewish race. The people whom God made covenant with through Abraham, and who are considered to be "God's chosen people". Now, before jumping to any conclusions, let me say that I wholeheartedly believe Laika's A and B to be true as well. However, it is also true that God's grace has not always been open to all people, right? Jesus himself said to the Canaanite woman, "I have only come for the lost sheep of Israel"(Matt. 15:24). Paul even describes this truth as the "mystery of Christ" in Eph.. "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel.."(Eph.3:6). This was an incredibly difficult concept for the Jewish Chistians to get a handle on. Afterall, nowhere in prior history had they ever had to "share" God with anyone. And while we as Gentiles now preach (and rightly so)that God's grace is available to all, it is important to remember that things were not always such. However, this relatively short Gentile phase that we are now in, according to Paul(Rom.11:11), serves to "make Isael envious". I believe that the Gentile period will come to an end as the book of Revelation unfolds. When the "natural branch" is grafted back in, God will once again be in their midst in miraculous ways(ie. the two witnesses, etc.) It was this Jewish outlook that helped me understand what the apostle Paul was saying in all of his "Jew vs. Gentile" passages. As a Calvinist, it was assumed that every passage about "predestination", "election", and "forknowledge" applied to everyone. This really kept me screwed up(for about ten years)! Anyway, I think that if you too will go back and do a study with more of a Jewish mindset, then you will also be convinced that Paul's messages are much more limited in scope, often times, than we allow. Romans 11 becomes particularly interesting. Now, consider too, for a moment, that God didn't "foreknow" anyone except those of the Jewish elect, as Rom.11:2 seems to suggest. If this is true, then many scriptures, such as those you mentioned, are reconciled. Specifically, then, there are those who have had their names written "in the book" from the foundation(the "foreknown" ones Paul mentions in Rom.11:2, who also happen to be Jews)of the world, and then there are the rest of us who got our names written "in the book" when we accepted Jesus. Again, this is what helped me out of the bondage of Calvinism several years ago. With all due respect, I only term my Calvinistic experience as "bondage" because it's logic had stolen my love for the lost. Afterall, if everyone is "predestined", then there are no "lost", right?!!! Hope this helps.
Let me know what you think!
Lone Ranger
"That's why God gave ya two ears and only one mouth....He spects you to do twice as much listenin' as talkin'!"
~Mom
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geebob
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 94
| Posted 7/10/2003 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Luke 11:50-51
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Revelations 13:8 is not a problem for the open view either way it is translated. From the foundation in Luke 11:50 clearly speaks of something that has been going on since the fall, which was about the time of the founding of the world and not at the very precise time of creation. So this verse refers to those whose names have not been added at any time since the foundation.
Or if it was the lamb who was slain since the foundation, we could say that this may be a metaphore for planning the sacrifice of the son (and we have to take in metaphorical no matter how we understand it anyway). Just like the slaying of the mayrters, we need not assume that this happened before the fall.
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy | | Back to Top | | |
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