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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/16/2002 6:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | Dear CVM brothers and sisters,
Can God experience Himself, through every possible individual, in a way that he does not have knowledge of?
Not really, in my mind, because God knows Himself, He is ALL KNOWLEDGE; therefore, God knows every possible experience of every human that might ever be born. However, I work with, experience, or learn from what knowledge, only God chooses to review, of Himself, to humanity and me personally. This is what I mean, when I say, "I am experiencing God…"
God experiences what He knows can happen (that is all ‘Possible Certainties’) in the life of the next baby born, until they die. I believe God knows everything, about every life that may be born, before the creation, from eternity past.
I am not saying, God learns, orthodox frowns upon that. God experiences the freedom of my choices for the first time when they occur; that is, they become actual. He knows of all the possible consequences of giving humankind the freedom of choice, simply because He is knowledge and cannot help but know.
Nonetheless, God is able to interfere anytime He chooses, with whom ever He chooses, to bring about whatever result He chooses, therefore, being certain of any outcome in a person’s life He chooses. Except for the choice of Salvation I believe, which He leaves to the individual to decide upon, therefore leaving Him, that is God in the dark, about whom will receive His gift of eternal life. God is not a prisoner of His own knowledge, nor am I, He relates in real time to real situations in my live, which He knows can occur.
This is what I mean, when I say, "God is…experiencing me, experience Him.
God relates to and/or experiences me personally, as I experience what He knew could happen. God can take control of my steps and establish or make them sure, if I will let Him or if; I will not…kind of a Heaven or Hell thing.
Max Herrera: Does God absolutely know what creatures with free-wills will do?
TIM: Or rather, does God know, all the possibilities of my free choices? I believe most certainly YES, however, possibility is not actual, until it is experienced, thus my use of the term, ‘Possible Certainties’, which when stated, "seems contradictory".
The following, after considering conversations I have heard and been in, is a reformation of one of the statements in my first post, when I first came to CVM, what do you think, is it neotheistic or orthodox? I am hoping it satisfies both.
I believe,
God is infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows absolutely all those things, which are possible as what is possible, certain as what is certain, contingent as what is contingent, and all those things, which are foreordained as what is predestined conclusion.
Max Herrera: Can God error, when it comes to future-contingent events?
By future-contingents, it is meant, a free-will act which is yet future. The question is, "does God ABSOLUTELY know what creatures with free-will, will do in the future, before the creature chooses what he or she will do?"
TIM: I do not believe it is possible for God not to know all possible futures; of, from, or about the free choices of all humankind, from eternity past. Universal knowledge, which is infinitely wise, has the intelligence for COMPLETE foreknowledge.
Your observations are taken well, Max, and with a great appreciation; it would be wrong for me to say, "God is without limit in knowledge, when He is indeed, ALL KNOWLEDGE HIMSELF." Although, I believe God is not a prisoner of His own knowledge, and is unlimited or boundless in His capacity to relate, with my limited awareness or experience of Him. That is to say, I believe God experiences me, by relating to my experience of Him, and others, such as your self. God does not predetermine all my choices when relating to you or Him, though He has determined what choices might or might not be (i.e. in His will or out of His will).
Furthermore, in my mind, either/or questions when formed by a person, does not always form a perfect ‘law of non-contradiction statement’, although the person may think they have.
God’s Love,
Tim
Edited by - Tim on 06/16/2002 12:01:25 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/17/2002 1:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I would like to respond to this topic (Ware #1: Gen. 22), and to Tim.
First to Tim. I don't think God needs to experience himself, like we might need to experience ourselves. God's knowledge is complete in this sense. However, when relating to creatures with LCFW (Libertarian Creaturely Free Will, for those who haven't followed these discussions), he may indeed enjoy experiencing our response to his creation and to Himself.
The LORD, your God, is in your midst,
a warrior who gives victory;
he will rejoice over you with gladness,
he will renew you£ in his love;
he will exult over you with loud singing
Zeph. 3:17 (NRSVA)
Now to the point of God saying "now I know", and similar statements cited by the OV. Let us assume that there is LCFW, and that some things are not settled until certain things take place. So, Abraham's heart toward God might not have been settled until it was tested on the mount.
Under the OV, we can look at Gen 22 as the point where the unsettled became settled, for ALL.
However, what about the view that allows for EFN? If we again allow for the premise of LCFW and that some things are unsettled until certain events take place, then couldn't God still say, "now I know?" Let me explain.
Given EFN, God could know that Abraham would have passed the test. However, the thing still is not truly settled until he passes the test. The act of passing the test would be the basis of God's knowledge of Abraham, and would also be the basis of many events yet to come. God is not being disingenious to say "NOW" I know, because the knowing is determined by that event in time.
This only becomes problemmatic if you do not allow for LCFW and an openness to the future.
YBIC,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these."
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/17/2002 2:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Winghead: I do not think God needs to experience himself, as we might need to experience ourselves. God's knowledge is complete in this sense. However, when relating to creatures with LCFW (Libertarian Creaturely Free Will, for those who have not followed these discussions), he may indeed enjoy experiencing our response to his creation and to Himself.
The LORD, your God, is in your midst,
a warrior who gives victory;
he will rejoice over you with gladness,
he will renew you£ in his love;
he will exult over you with loud singing
Zeph. 3:17 (NRSVA)
TIM: I believe God does experience the pleasure, of being the creator (i.e. Himself), of all things, the pleasure and trials of relating to the freedom of my own choices, as I experience His creation. As the creator of my emotions, I believe God experiences a depth of emotion within Himself, He never could of, without having created.
I believe God with Universal or having ALL KNOWLEDGE, with infinite wisdom, has the intelligence for COMPLETE FOREKNOWLEDGE, without fatalistic determinism.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord,
to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things,
and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (AV)
God’s Love,
Tim
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 6/17/2002 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree in gerneal with your view of God and his relationship to creation Tim, but there are some puzzles here that may nuance it a bit.
How does experience himself experiencing us when our experience is intrinsically myopic? That is, what it means for you to experience YOU is that you experience ONLY you AS YOU and not ME or anyone else.
Consider that your experience is as much an experience of "not-Greg" and "not-Tom" and "not-God" as it is an experience of "being Tim." How does God perfectly experience my subjectivity when my subjectivity is what is is only by virtue of being not-anything other than me? Does God experience exactly what its like to be me? If so, he has to experience what its like to be me WHILE NOT ALSO BEING THAT YOUR NOT ALSO GOD.
Relatedly, does God experience all the things that accompany the experience of being a finite being? E.g. In experiencing Tamarah who is petrified of dying, does God experience the fear of death (which, recall puzzle #1, is not assuage by knowing that you are also God, or even eternal, for Tamarah doesn't believe she's God and doesn't even believe there's life after death)? Does God genuinely hold false beliefs and experience the consequences of those false beliefs? If NOT, than his experience of us experiencing ourselves is not EXACTLY identical to our experience of us.
In the same vein, does God experience "willing evil"? lf God's experience of an evil person is exactly identical ("Perfect") to the evil person himself, then God must experience himself as willing all horrendous-- really truly desiring -- all the horrendous things humans sometimes will.
For all these reasons, I'm inclined (gardians of truth, note, not "resolved" or "teach as doctrine" -- just inclined as a possible theory ) to conclude that there is a dimension of our subjective experience that God perfectly KNOWS ABOUT (e.g. in the form of propositions) but does not experience FROM THE INSIDE. He experiences all sins IMPACT on the cross of Calvary, but doesn't experience our WILLING SIN.
And note this, Scripture depictsTHE INCARNATION as what equipped Jesus to be our empathetic high priests.
Heb. 4:15-16. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are — yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
The incarnation ADDED to God's experience. HERE he experience FROM THE INSIDE human existence and, on the cross, the horrifying consequences of our sin. This suggests that this is not GENERALLY God's experience.
I'm not clear on the extent to which my reflections here agree with or go against your view that "God experiences himself through us." But, at the very least, it seems to nuance it somewhat. Agree?
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/17/2002 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
For all these reasons, I'm inclined (gardians of truth, note, not "resolved" or "teach as doctrine" -- just inclined as a possible theory) to conclude that there is a dimension of our subjective experience that God perfectly KNOWS ABOUT (e.g. in the form of propositions) but does not experience FROM THE INSIDE.
Right on. But would the gatekeepers disagree with this? I should think not.
Tom
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 6/18/2002 6:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Tim, you stated:
quote:
Not really, in my mind, because God knows Himself, He is ALL KNOWLEDGE; therefore, God knows every possible experience of every human that might ever be born.
I didn't read the rest, don't have the time, but let's look at the basic idea:
(rated PG13)
I will produce about 876 billion sperm in my life. My wife, about 500 fertile eggs in hers. This gives on man with one wife (not the norm through history)the simple multiplication possibility of 438 trillion different individual children. (Last night I was at a graduation party where the mother was one of 10 kids, the mom was there, she was one of 15 and had the least number of children in her family, wow).
Let's say I had the possibility to marry 10 different women (Hmm, Gina, Ann, Anne, Barbera, Pam, Pam, Caroline, Mary, Cindy, Debbie, Brenda, etc, this is conservative), so before I committed to one woman, the possibility was 438t x 10 = 4,380,000,000,000,000 different individuals. Let's say less than 1/4 of the population of the earth had this possibility, so we reduce it to 1 billion men, so we just add zeros and have the current earth population has the possibility of producing 4,380,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 different children. Each human can have, conservatively, 1,000,000 thoughts a year and lives, lets just say 30 years, we now have the possibility of 131,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 thought experiences, the extreme majority of which will never exist because the people won't (for instance, of my possibility of 4,380,000,000,000,000 different individuals, I have 3 kids, want to see their pictures?:)
Let me quote you again:
quote:
He is ALL KNOWLEDGE; therefore, God knows every possible experience of every human that might ever be born.
Hmmm.
"Neuk'em"
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/18/2002 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Newcomb.......
So infinity is still infinity, no matter how many zeros you put at the end of it.
Good. Just checking. 
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/27/2002 1:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Greg: I agree in general with your view of God and his relationship to creation Tim, but there are some puzzles here that may nuance it a bit.
How does [God] experience himself experiencing us when our experience is intrinsically myopic? That is, what it means for you to experience YOU is that you experience ONLY you AS YOU and not ME or anyone else.
TIM: God experiences for the first time, His knowledge in me, as I grow in knowledge or experience. That is, God experiences what He alone knows, where each person is capable of, fullness in Him.
Greg: Consider that your experience is as much an experience of "not-Greg" and "not-Tom" and "not-God" as it is an experience of "being Tim".
TIM: Sorry, I believe Lucifer is experiencing God, as much as, Jesus did, only differently. That is, either in His will or out of it.
Greg: How does God perfectly experience my subjectivity when my subjectivity is what is, only by virtue of being not-anything other than me? Does God experience exactly what it is like to be me?
TIM: I believe my subjectivity pertaining to, or derived from, my own consciousness, originates from the consciousness of all things, namely God. Therefore, God must experience exactly what it is like to be me or else I am not (i.e. Jesus).
Greg: Relatedly, does God experience all the things that accompany the experience of being a finite being? E.g. In experiencing Tamarah who is petrified of dying, does God experience the fear of death (which, recall puzzle #1, is not assuage by knowing that you are also God, or even eternal, for Tamarah doesn't believe she's God and doesn't even believe there's life after death)? Does God genuinely hold false beliefs and experience the consequences of those false beliefs? If NOT, than his experience of us experiencing ourselves is not EXACTLY identical to our experience of us.
TIM: I get your point, however, I have a weird suggestion, was it not as death to be only God and not to be experienced (i.e. created in the image).
Greg: In the same vein, does God experience "willing evil"? If God's experience of an evil person is exactly identical ("Perfect") to the evil person himself, then God must experience himself as willing all horrendous-- really truly desiring -- all the horrendous things humans sometimes will.
For all these reasons, I'm inclined (gardians of truth, note, not "resolved" or "teach as doctrine" -- just inclined as a possible theory) to conclude that there is a dimension of our subjective experience that God perfectly KNOWS ABOUT (e.g. in the form of propositions) but does not experience FROM THE INSIDE. He experiences all sins IMPACT on the cross of Calvary, but doesn't experience our WILLING SIN.
And note this, Scripture depictsTHE INCARNATION as what equipped Jesus to be our empathetic high priests.
Heb. 4:15-16. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are — yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
The incarnation ADDED to God's experience. HERE he experiences FROM THE INSIDE human existence and, on the cross, the horrifying consequences of our sin. This suggests that this is not GENERALLY God's experience.
I'm not clear on the extent to which my reflections here agree with or go against your view that "God experiences himself through us." But, at the very least, it seems to nuance it somewhat. Agree?
TIM: Agree…your very close to the point I hope we both arrive at, however, showing yourself somewhat undecided and unclear in what I am presenting is a good thing, in my mind.
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
God’s Love,
Tim
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/29/2002 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | markus: I cannot see how one can separate into separate, watertight, independent compartments, those events that God determines and those which are given to us to freely decide. Every single action that we take on our own initiative is not a simple, one-off act, it has untold repercussions that affect the whole chain of future events that interrelate with it…
…I can and do believe that God directly intervenes in this world, and that He also allows some, if not most, action to be our own decision - but I cannot find a way to understand how God can also be [unaware of the future actions we will take], or of the incredibly vast and chain-linked implications that continue beyond them.
But I am not very competent at working these things out alone and I would appreciate some guidance [on] how God could work in such a manner that He remains omniscient, but, at the same time, still ignorant of future events - or have I misunderstood the whole concept (very possible!)?
TIM: Experience is of a different nature for God, than for you or me. How so, God experiences what He knows and we know what we experience. That is, God, you, and me learn  as it were, from this experience. God learns the outcome of what He knows and we know the outcome of what we learn. As for separate, watertight, independent compartments…
I believe,
God is infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows absolutely all those things, which are possible as what is possible, certain as what is certain, contingent as what is contingent, and all those things, which are foreordained as what is predestined conclusion.
…looking forward to your comments
God’s Love,
Tim
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/30/2002 2:38 AM (GMT -6) | | If God already knows every decision that I will make tomorrow then he must know every decision that I will make for the rest of my life. And if he knows this then he must have known every decision I was going to make when I was born. Of course, this then leads directly to the observation that he must have known every decision that every person was going to make from when he decided to create the universe. This means that the whole thing has already been determined. We are just acting out the script - going through the motions. It is already written.
Think about it. In the billionth of a second it took him to work out the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of decisions and impacts and events and further decisions after he decided to create the universe he knew the whole story. He knew every little thing that was going to happen. Over 15 billion years ago (from our time perspective) he knew that Iconoclast was going to write this sentence. And there is nothing I can do to change that. Because if I do - he already knew that I was going to do that.
Upon further reflection (which he knew I was going to do), it occurs to me that he wouldn't have even had to actually create the thing before knowing how it was all going to work out. This means that he first designed the whole thing out in his head and mentally modeled all the trillions upon trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power details before creating anything. Then he decided to do it.
If this is true then I have two questions:
1. Do we really have to go through the motions? Couldn't he just create us all in the end resultant state with memories of what we have done? I mean, what is the point?
2. How exactly am I any different from a robot or a billiard ball? Sure I am a really complex robot, but if by a calculation it can be determined exactly what I am going to do and every decision I am going to make then what does it mean that I am created in the "Image of God" (Imago Dei)? And how can I possibly be responsible for my actions because by definition it is definitive that the inputs leading up to a decision are enough to calculate exactly what I will do?
Just throwing out a stream of consciousness here.
Oh, another question:
3. Wouldn't this also mean that God has also already worked out exactly how he will intervene at each point? Therefore, does it mean that God is also just going through the motions as well? He already knows each decision he will make at each point because, in fact, he already made that decision in the billionth of a second it took to work it all out.
Thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Iconoclast,
Great questions, I am sure you have an answer for every one of them .
markus: I have been trying to understand the basic idea behind Open Theism, which is a new, and very complicated subject for one of so little brain.
TIM: I have been trying to figure it out also, and in my discussions with Greg Boyd and his particular flavor of it, he has not disagreed with my own view; it has made him question his own, from my perspective.
"For all these reasons, I'm inclined (guardians of truth, note, not "resolved" or "teach as doctrine" -- just inclined as a possible theory) to conclude that there is a dimension of our subjective experience that God perfectly KNOWS ABOUT (e.g. in the form of propositions) but does not experience FROM THE INSIDE. He experiences all sins IMPACT on the cross of Calvary, but doesn't experience our WILLING SIN." - Greg Boyd
markus: It appears to divide the unfolding story of humankind into those events that God determines and those where God allows us free choice - but still accepts that God already predetermined the result at the very beginning.
TIM: If you are stating the true premise OV holds, I do not disagree, it is in the particulars of the working out of this premise, that I part with many. Furthermore, ‘Predetermined’ is an inappropriate term or way of expressing the truth of the matter in my mind though.
markus: This sounds very sensible to me to the extent that it adds meaning and purpose to our existence here, but I struggle to understand how God can also be without foreknowledge of our future decision-making - or why He even needs to be.
TIM: I do not believe it is possible for God not to know all possible futures; of, from, or about the free choices of all humankind, from eternity past. Universal knowledge, which is infinitely wise, has the intelligence for COMPLETE foreknowledge. However, I believe,
"God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge."
That is to say, God is relational.
God’s Love,
Tim
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/1/2002 3:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast raises two very good, fundamental questions above, relating to God’s omniscience. And I think it is essential to have a personal answer for these two issues before being able to form any belief concerning God’s foreknowledge of events.
The two questions raised are:
quote:
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1. Do we really have to go through the motions? Couldn't he just create us all in the end resultant state with memories of what we have done? I mean, whats the point?
2. How exactly am I any different than a robot or a billiard ball? Sure I am a really complex robot, but if by a calculation it can be determined exactly what I am going to do and every decision I am going to make then what does it mean that I am created in the "Image of God" (Imago Dei)? And how can I possibly be responsible for my actions because by definition it is definitive that the inputs leading up to a decision are enough to calculate exactly what I will do?
Of course, this then leads directly to the observation that he must have known every decision that every person was going to make from when he decided to create the universe. Which means that the whole thing has already been determined. We are just acting out the script - going through the motions. It is already written.
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Regarding the first question, Yes, God could have just created us perfect, and not bothered with any of this physical world pre-existence and experience. Equally, He could have prohibited the existence of evil and sin. But on both accounts He didn’t. So the question still is why ARE we here, and why ARE we immersed in sin and evil? But let’s come to that later.
Regarding the second question, It would only be a script if God actually wrote it. Just because He already knows what we will do through perfect deduction, it does not mean He is simultaneously robbing us of our individuality and making those decisions on our behalf. Why would the Bible contain references to God’s anger and disappointments if we were only playing out His own game? No, His disappointment comes from His own unfulfilled hope and yearning that we all would turn to him, and that none would be lost. But He knows that it will not happen because WE choose for ourselves, not God on our behalf! What an incredible gift that is from God – that we may freely choose our own destiny!! And what incredible love is shown by His refusal to interfere with our own decision-making – in spite of His burning desire that all would be saved. How easy it would be for God to artificially keep us all on the right road – but that would not achieve God’s ultimate purpose, in spite of how much it breaks His heart to see people’s waywardness and continuing stubborn refusal to all come to Him.
God demonstrates equally much restraint and patience concerning His will on earth. He could (and surely does) directly intrude into earthly events, but His wish is that his will is implemented via humankind. He craves our prayer so that He may respond, and also that we may understand what He wishes us to do – and that we then do it.
His ultimate purpose (I believe) is to retain our individuality and personality, whilst removing our demand for personal independence that is derived from our pride, ego and selfishness.
It is important to remember that all the decisions we make are based on both external circumstances AND our own reactive and proactive judgement and free-will. So the external "inputs leading up to a decision" are NOT enough to calculate what we will do, it also requires our own internal input - and that is why we are NOT robotic. The point is, though, that God ALSO knows us so well that He also knows what we will do just as well as if He WERE us Himself. And His awareness of our decision-making is a totally different thing to His usurping our own authority over our decision-making. We make our decisions, we are responsible for them, we are accountable for them – God just knows them beforehand. There is a whole world of difference between just knowing what we will decide and actually deciding for us on our behalf. Our decisions will be whatever they will be, regardless of whether God is already aware of them or not.
When we try to deny God any pre-knowledge, all we are actually trying to do is preserve some kind of personal independence and separation from God. We are fighting against surrendering ourselves totally to God – we are still trying to keep a piece of ourselves for ourselves. And this is exactly what we have to learn to surrender. If we could make even a single decision without God's pre-knowledge then that means there HAS to be a part of us that is hidden from God – that we are capable of thinking something without God’s knowledge – that there IS a hiding place from God’s eyes. Do we believe that? Really?
When considering the reason for our physical existence, I think it is very important to consider first what is God’s purpose concerning the universe that we live in. I doubt, for example, that anyone thinks our physical, mortal world is an end in itself. Therefore, it is purely a means towards something else, something far more important, far more lasting, far more significant. We know something of the nature of God’s coming kingdom, but we do not actually know anything about its purpose or what we are going to be doing there. In the same way that we ponder endlessly about the purpose of life here, isn’t it even more relevant to realize that an even greater purpose lies beyond this physical world? We do at least know that our physical universe is only an interim phase, that has both a beginning and an end – but we also know that God was here before that beginning AND that God will still be there beyond its end.
So the crucial point (for me, at least) is that God HAS to already know the outcome of this physical stage, and that the real issue lies beyond this world, not in its midst. It follows from this, that our transcient physical stage here is for our benefit only, not God’s. It is a stage where we are meant to learn about God’s values of love, selfessness, patience, perfection, goodness and so on. In our present state we are worthless to God, and we need considerable transformation for the next world, where we are to be of value to God in our own right, not as programmed robots. We are certainly made in God’s image, and that image exists inside each and every one of us, but it is buried so deeply and tarnished with such sin, that we have to struggle hard to find it within us – that is core of our mission here. Yes, God could have created us as perfect but would we understand what perfection means without having once witnessed existence within an evil, sinful, selfish environment?
It is human nature to accept the current situation as a "norm". What is spectacular today is commonplace tomorrow. It takes ever-greater spectacles to continue to impress us. This works in both directions, both good and bad (e.g. scientific advancement and pornography). If we were created directly into the final kingdom, how long would we stay impressed before trying to take personal advantage, neglect duties, and taking everythign for granted – just as we do in this lifetime? Yes, God COULD have created us without these sinful tendencies – but then we WOULD be programmed robots. God wants to live eternity with you as an individual, self-thinking being, not as an automated God replica – but also as a person that can be trusted and has a God-like heart that needs no set of rules to live by. When the Bible says there will be no evil in the new Kingdom, it is because no one brings it with them, not because it is somehow forbidden. If God were to simply ban evil from the new Kingdom, it would mean we are not trusted, that we still would have a leaning towards sin. But the truth is, when everyone is perfected to their own image of God, there can BE no evil, because evil comes from within, not without.
If you were an army commander facing an important battle, would you prefer a unit of war-experienced veterans whose discipline, decision-making and teamwork is based on an inner appreciation of the essentiality of these qualities for survival - or an bunch of energetic, newly trained recruits? Surely, our experiences here are even more essential in building the maturity and character of those populating God’s new world?
God may know already who will be with him in the next life - but we certainly do not! We still have to make all those decisions that lie ahead of us. We still have to decide for ourselves, do we wish to give ourselves to God or not – is that not the whole purpose of having a God that is invisible and yet still tangible? What purpose would there be in God revealing Himself fully to all persons? How would that allow us to find and treasure our knowledge of God? If He were provable, visible, then everyone would simply accept Him and become complacent to Him and remain unchanged and imperfect, within themselves – they would follow God through necessity and not for the right reasons, and thereby still retain the seed of evil potential. It would lie buried in our hearts instead of exorcised through a lifetime struggle with faith and a yearning to see God clearly and to move as close to Him as possible.
But it is OUR decision, each of us alone, whether we do look for God. And what a wonderful, inspiring, thought that God gives us this lifetime to learn these values! A school in which we develop our selves – not for this lifetime, but for the next. We know we cannot succeed here in a world controlled by evil, and Jesus warns us many times that it will be a life full of difficulties and stress. But we are not here to achieve results, we are only expected to allow Christ through faith to change our inner selves, our attitudes, our values. And above all, we are here to find our love of God through deep faith and prayer.
I believe God calls on all people at various times in our lives – and it is up to us whether we recognize it and accept it, or walk away from it. Maybe we often walk away many times without even realizing it before the truth finally dawns. For many people, this calling comes during times of suffering, for often the stars are only brighter and more valuable when seen from the bottom of the well than from the peak of the mountain. When things go well for us and we feel on top of the world, we often forget our need for God.
But rather than limiting our focus to our decision-making today, let us imagine how we will be able to look back on this life from the next lifetime. Project yourself ahead to the time beyond this world, where you can look back and see how God, even knowing how some would continually refuse Him, still allowed them the right and opportunity to decide for themselves! Only then will we realize the true value of what God has allowed us here. We will see the true justice in His judgement. We will see how we justified our own salvation through our belief and yearning, regardless of failings. We will each be filled with thanksgiving and a deep humility for the salvation through grace that God has extended towards us in recognition of our faithfulness. Each will be filled with a deep understanding and love of God’s ways and a commitment to Him through eternity. And all this is a prerequisite of life with God. We will have more freedom there than we could ever imagine now. Afterall, is eternity just for singing and playing harps? I doubt that! There is work to be done.
And what better work can there be than having free responsibility to work autonomously for God with perfection in one’s heart?
Markus
Thank you, Tim for your thoughts. I liked the following very much
quote:
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TIM: I do not believe it is possible for God not to know all possible futures; of, from, or about the free choices of all humankind, from eternity past. Universal knowledge, which is infinitely wise, has the intelligence for COMPLETE foreknowledge. However, I believe,
"God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge."
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Foreknowledge does not mean already executed. So God certainly has every ability to do whatever He likes to guide, correct, etc. Of course, He already knows what HE will do and when, but it is not yet done.
Again, this might sound boring and pointless from God's own perspective, but WE are the reason why all this exists around us. It is WE who are being moulded towards perfection, if we allow it. It is WE who need this process, God is only managing it for as long as it is still required - the "school" will be wound up for good.
As usual, I add the disclaimer that these are only my own views, and I have no wish to try to convert or divert anyone from their own views. I just believe sharing views and insights makes us all much richer. Some opinions may change our own, others may just strengthen those we already have. But in all cases, it makes us challenge our own beliefs and makes us meditate on them more deeply - and thus strengthening and deepening our own faith and knowledge of God.
Surely God appreciates a sincere, questing heart - not just the accuracy of our opinions?
Markus
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Dear markus.
I absolutely love reading your post; you expose what I believe is the truth, so clearly.
I believe the call of experience is to risk the peril of life; exposed to injury, loss, and destruction. The price of passage through the state of things, which is the affair; to conduct myself, with what happens well, or ill; attended by the circumstance of events, both fortunate and unfortunate. Instructed by life; the skill of knowledge is taught by use, and is the call to learn. The experience of the trial, the test of the experiment, the effect upon my judgment and feelings produced by the event, is the act of one with all knowledge, the creator. Observation and experiment; made to confirm or disprove under life conditions, determined by the experimenter, that is God. The act and operation of creation; undertaken in order to discover something unknown about life, choice; choice is the subject of God’s experiment; to try me, to know my God, to perceive Him correctly, to prove me, by the trial of the experience.
God’s Love,
Tim
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