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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/17/2002 9:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | -My Middle Knowledge theory  -
Could the following verse be an explicit example of a type of God's Middle Knowledge (without getting into Molina's complete theory) and reveal there was something to know in real time, looking at the heart, as a basis for action and prediction?
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: (for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before) I have brought them into the land which I sware.
Also concerning the timing of temporal judgements could the ground be the same concrete middle knowing of God as in Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
-Concerning Covenant-
It seems the scriptures affirm the free moral agent principle and reveals how God does not violate this but gains access to legally work in the dimension of a delegated realm of authority on man's behalf because they agree in a covenant. The covenant gives the right for action for both parties. I have not read about this being addressed as a supportive argument for the open theism or free will model, but they seem to be very helpful for understanding. What do you think
Ron
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Tom
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| Posted 12/18/2002 2:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
..for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: (for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before) I have brought them into the land which I sware.
Ron-
Welcome to the site. Hope you enjoy hanging out here as much as I do.
I like the thought of viewing covenant as a mutually agreed upon basis for actions on both parts. If covenant is God's way of relating (and it certainly seems to be) then the presence of evil in the world might be explained in terms of covenants God made (with Lucifer, with the angels, with Creation, with humankind). Some of these covenants we we know about because they're in the Bible (Abrahamic, Davidid, New Covenant, etc.). I think Doc argues in SPE that there are other covenants God entered into (with angelic beings, Lucifer in particular) that partly define God's actions in the world. Not knowing much about these covenants, we just have to confess humbly that we don't know, though positing their existence helps explain some things.
Now, about Middle Knowledge, I'm no experet. But the passage from Deut. you mention seems to me to be an example of God predicting future behavior based on the "now." The open view of course agrees that tons of things about the future can be predicted with accurancy based on past and existing track records. But this is unlike MK, which posits as an eternally settled fact the truth of what agents WOULD do in certain circumstances. As I understand it, such knowledge is not deduced by God from existing realities. God knows what he knows eternally. In Molinism, God's knows possibilities only as what "might have been" and never as "what might be."
Don't know if that was any help.
Tom
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/18/2002 11:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm going to take some time to read what others post here. Maybe I'll respond later.
(Despite the fact that I go to a Christian Reformed Church, I do not hold to "Covenant Theology"; but, rather, think of is as kind of an analogy. Its more than an analogy, surely. But I think it is less than concretely history-bound -- in a way similar to how the issues Paul dealt with in Galatians was BOTH tied to and disjunct from whether getting circumcised was sin or not.)
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 12/19/2002 10:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Welcome rsirkel.
The very idea of God entering into a covenant with humans suggests an interPERSONAL relationship. Both parties agree to it and live by it, with blessings and punishments stipulated. To this extent it suggests at least an Arminian perspective. As for middle knowledge, TGB expressed my own thoughts.
in his love
Doc
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/19/2002 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | TGB & GB
Thanks for the warm welcome. I do love to visit this site and read the amazing discussions of all the participants. You have quite an enlightened group, the topics are known with such depth that for the most part I'll just watch. I should have said at the onset that my mention of middle knowledge had nothing to do with Molina's theory. I do have his book "On Divine Foreknowledge" but for a country preacher it is a labored read. When I first heard the term middle knowledge I immediately thought of the passages where it is revealed God said something about the future, maybe just a general prediction, based on His seeing the heart of man or a people. The imagination of the thoughts of the heart seems to cover what triggers (bad choice of words, it implies the cause as in determinism, I should have said the motivation for)the volitional acts and God seeing this predicts. I should have used a different word or phrase instead of middle knowledge since it already has meanings attached, but those accounts seemed like a middle knowledge to me.
Fred
For me, seeing that covenant revelation of HOW God gains saving access to lost humanity in a perfectly just way, not violating authorities, but establishing agreements for action, was like the Quakers used to say, I had an opening. That opening revealed a deepened understanding of How He works. Covenant probably does have dimensions of understanding but an opening helps clear up that hazy background mind of notions men have about God and did give an inward concreteness to my relationship with Him. Boy thats setting myself up for an heretical charge. A concrete Spirit.
Ron
Edited by - rsirkel on 12/20/2002 6:10:18 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/19/2002 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Ron, for fun....
quote:
"perfectly just way, not violating authorities"
Does this suggest something greater than God?
You could see this article: Original Sin According to St. Paul www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm. Others here have read it. It makes the following point (if you agree):
quote:
...what man accepts as just and good according to his observations of human relationships within society and nature cannot be confused with the justice of God. The justice of God has been revealed uniquely and fully only in Christ. No man has the right to substitute his own conception of justice for that of God.
...
For St. Paul, the justice of God and the love of God are not to be separated for the sake of any juridical doctrine of atonement. The justice of God and the love of God as revealed in Christ are the same thing. In Romans 3:21-26, for example, the expression, "love of God," could very easily be substituted for the "justice of God."
Food for thought.
Fred
Edited by - fred on 12/19/2002 5:30:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/19/2002 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Fred,
Remember this is for fun.
Is not God just and the justifier? Wouldn't all of His actions be perfectly just? Could I not say so upon observation?
You ask.
Does this suggest something greater than God?
Thats reaching way out of biblical grounds. But it shows the turn of your mind.
That was a good read on the link you gave and I teach the same as most of it, except for a few points included and one or two I think he left out.
If the scriptures use the different terms justice and love why is he trying to make them the same thing? Are we saved by love or faith? They both have there definitions and place in doctrine and in an experiential walk with Jesus now. When I shared the two openings they were from divine immediate unmediated revelation (the anointing that teacheth)even if my transmission was flawed.
He left out the baptism with the Holy Ghost as to how we receive power to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. I think he left out, casting out devils, healing the sick, and setting the captive free, a whole creation deliverance from the bondage. It may be a subjective gospel for me but objective for those in bondage around me, unless I neglect that part of the gospel. I emphasis now, the Holy Spirit, the promise the church has neglected.I don't see how anyone including theologians can know anything as God intended without the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? He guides us into all truth, teaches us all things, brings to our remembrance the words of Jesus. When He reveals you've got something the gates of hell cannot prevail against. That is what Jesus told Peter, flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father,... upon this rock I will build my church.
I would say pertaining to his teaching that it was a monastic and limited gospel without the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it was good bible teaching but no mention of receiving the power of God for the great commission. Nor the need for the Holy Ghost as a teacher. Paul's teaching to the churches I think has that as a given whereas in John and Acts it is spoken of as fundamental entrance into the kingdom. That is believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Is the Christian Reformed Church taught from a monastic perspective?
In Christ
Ron
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/19/2002 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | 1. No. The CRC has no monks or nuns.
2. You posted, perhaps in response to Romanadies (who was Greek Orthodox):
quote:
I would say pertaining to his teaching that it was a monastic and limited gospel without the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it was good bible teaching but no mention of receiving the power of God for the great commission. Nor the need for the Holy Ghost as a teacher. Paul's teaching to the churches I think has that as a given whereas in John and Acts it is spoken of as fundamental entrance into the kingdom. That is believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Let me direct you to this link on the OCA site (was Russian Orthodox):
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Chrismation.html
quote:
In the sacrament of Chrismation we receive "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" (See Rom 8, 1 Cor 6, 2 Cor 1:21-22). If baptism is our personal participation in Easter -- the death and resurrection of Christ, then chrismation is our personal participation in Pentecost -- the coming of the Holy Spirit upon us.
(Thomas Hopko)
Browse up and down from there. That's the way the Chruch "has always" done it.
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/20/2002 3:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Fred,
With all due respect to your religion, do you possess what you profess? Do you have a form of godliness and deny the power? I cannot say the essence of the teachings of your church are wrong because they point to a revealed truth from scripture. But have they become a ceremony, a form. Do you know the Holy Spirit as your teacher? Do you know his charisma or outworking grace? Can you say this is that or do you point to an external rite and call it the thing. Have you ever been moved by the Spirit and given utterance in another tongue you have never learned or prophesy. By asking these things I am not trying to put you down but does your religion lead you into the possession of the truths it professes. Is reformation to you a return to the orthodox rites and church. Is that worshipping God in Spirit and truth in your mind? Can one in your mind, receive regeneration without going through a rite in the orthodox church? Can one receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit and not be rubbed with oil in the sacrament of Christmation? If your answer is no then since you point to orthodox writings as reference for us to read, would you take the time to read the first 100 pages of the "Journal of George Fox"?
I love the zeal and passion you have Fred and if what you preach stands great but if it falls repent.
Ron
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
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might-be-don
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| Posted 12/20/2002 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Ron says:quote:
-Concerning Covenant-
It seems the scriptures affirm the free moral agent principle and reveals how God does not violate this but gains access to legally work in the dimension of a delegated realm of authority on man's behalf because they agree in a covenant. The covenant gives the right for action for both parties. I have not read about this being addressed as a supportive argument for the open theism or free will model, but they seem to be very helpful for understanding. What do you think
Bold above is mine.
"Legally"? "Right"? Are you talking about the Lord God Almighty, King of Kings and Lord of Lords ? or the leader elect of the free world?
peace and love, don
---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/20/2002 11:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Don
Were you having a bad day?
You said:
"Legally"? "Right"? Are you talking about the Lord God Almighty, King of Kings and Lord of Lords ? or the leader elect of the free world?
Is not Jesus King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..
Need I say more
In Christ
Edited by - rsirkel on 12/20/2002 4:25:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/20/2002 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I see you started this thread Ron. Fair enough.
But Ido NOT like your judgemental, out-for-the-hunt demeanor. I'm sick of it; to me and my internet friends here. I don't want to read any more of it.
You can have your thread. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/21/2002 3:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Fred
What is really moving you away?
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
This is the language and way I hold to within, it should not be strange if it comes out, I would not have began a public discussion if I were not ready to be examined myself. You've given your mind on the matter, I hope you (change your mind). Now if there is a protocol I have transgressed I am open to correction. Really.
In Christ
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Springs
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| Posted 12/21/2002 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Ron,
The verse you quoted is about examining yourself, not examing others. Why do you wonder whether Fred has the Holy Spirit?
Springs
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic." | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/21/2002 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
I wonder for his sake. The links he promoted indicated rites that were supposed to represent the baptism with the Holy spirit. My questions to him were intended to see if he had been content to replace the Holy Spirit with the rite. Had he received the Holy Spirit since he believed? A proper, biblical question, that should not offend anyone seeking the truth. The light first shows the condition. Thats a good thing. Should I relegate the discussion board to an offlimits area for ministry. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the promise the church has neglected. I feel a sense of obligation to say something about the promise in any encounter in life because I had neglected Him and want to promote the promised gift at all times. Maybe the arena of academic discussion has not been my cup of tea in the past and I am a little crude in my presentation but the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. Examine yourself, Paul made the statement, was he wrong in giving them the instruction? Also asking whether he had received the Holy Spirit since he believed was a public question, have you?
In Christ
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might-be-don
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| Posted 12/21/2002 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Ron says:
quote:
Is not Jesus King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
I didn't make myself clear enough.
Regarding the need for the Lord to make a covenant to gain a legal right to interact with us as He does, phooey. He has the "right" to do with us as He will without the need for a covenant, or for that matter, for us to agree to anything.
peace and love, don
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/21/2002 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Don,
I wrote the following prior to reading your latest message and don't mean to ignore but will get back to your position later. I will probably just stick with what He has done and what He has said and leave what He could have done or could do, to you.
God Bless
Regarding the statements about my middle knowledge theory.
Deuteronomy 31:20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
I stated I thought God was predicting the general future actions of Israel because of what He saw in their hearts. I am now thinking of another level or dimension of understanding, that to me begins to point to the “God at War” presentation. That is the revelation in Romans 7 shows the the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So of course God knew at the giving of the law, the laws at work in fallen creation, man included, that Paul discovered and shared by revelation of the Holy Spirit
Romans 7:9….: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring !!!against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
God knew perfectly well the prince of the power of the air would cause, by working in lost man, the imagination and intent to oppose God when His will was revealed in the law. God wanted to bring them into the promised land the devil in enmity against God worked in them for them to return to Egypt.
Deuteronomy 31:20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
He knew this because He knew the enmity of the devil. And, but I am carnal, sold under sin., when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Of course He knew (another law in my members, warring against the law (Of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.)
So anytime His will was made known to lost man unaided by the Holy Spirit. He knew the enemy would oppose and could predict the enemies opposition to His will which would manifest in man, showing their captivity. Even to one who wanted to do His will (Paul) That is why Jesus died for our sins (plural) to free us from sin (prince of the power of the air) buy us back, place us in the Kingdom of His Son and give us a new Holy Spirit working in us to fulfill the righteousness of the law. So we have truly been called to freedom, free will able to, as we walk in the Spirit, live holy and blameless before Him in love.
To summarize, I see a progressive revelation in scripture of the principalities and powers opposed to God and holding man captive until repentance and belief in the gospel. That the behavior of lost man can be generally predicted or even detailed if He wants to, because the law of sin and death opposes the law of God. (the commandmant came sin revived) In Christ the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets us free.
In Christ
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Springs
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| Posted 12/27/2002 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Ron,
Thanks for the explanation and your humility. I think I was just as curious about your presentation as your motivation. In answer to your question, yeah, I have recieved the Holy Spirit since I was saved. Is there some way you will know whether my profession is true or not, or is subjective judgement good enough?
I've read a bit of McCabe. When I have more time I'd like to post of few questions about it. For now, I'm off to the great white north.
Praying for snow, just like last year.
Happy New Year,
Springs
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic." | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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| Posted 12/27/2002 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
My conviction of whether a person can know whether one is baptised with the Holy Ghost or not(my subjective judgment is of secondary importance, if important at all, in relation to the knowing an individual can possess) and when I use this word know I mean to experience. Not just to know about, as contained in a formula rite, or to just know from scripture alone, or doctrine alone, or to know mentally, but known communion with the person of the Holy Spirit and speaking with the utterance he gives. From Jesus's teaching, he said when he (Holy Ghost)would come, he would speak, testify, ect. in John 14, 15, and 16. I hold no rite, mental knowing about, or man's theological posturing can replace the person of the Holy Spirit speaking through, guiding, anointing, and revealing in us. In fact, the allowing to stand, upon encounter, of any imitation of, so as to replace the power of, the person of the Holy Spirit, with a form, would be irresponsible on my part. It is my subjective judgement every Christian, in obedience to the Lord, should receive the gift of the Holy Spirit just like the New Testament accounts. So if your profession measures up with possession, great. Hope you have a great time in the North.
In Christ
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Springs
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| Posted 1/6/2003 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Ron,
Thanks, I had a great time up north. I hate to show my ignorance when I post, but it’s never stopped me before, so here goes.
You say: Not just to know about, as contained in a formula rite, or to just know from scripture alone, or doctrine alone, or to know mentally, but known communion with the person of the Holy Spirit and speaking with the utterance he gives.
Are you saying that if a person doesn’t speak in tongues, they aren’t in communion with, nor have they experienced the Spirit?
-S
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic." | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 1/6/2003 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Springs, I BET that's what he's saying. I read him that way.
I don't know how really "Trinitarian" this all is, though; at least on the surface. Christ said: "one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matthew 11:27). And Paul writes: "and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3). EVERYTHING God does is trinitarian.
As I've read the Good Doctor say, "The Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit" (Eph 2: 18-22).
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rsirkel
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| Posted 1/7/2003 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
How would you describe a manifestation of the Spirit in you or through you? I was speaking from the context of being filled with the Holy Spirit which does not exclude His working to get us to see this.
Jesus said when the Holy Spirit would come, He would speak, and testify. In the general tenor of scripture when the Spirit came upon someone they (He) spoke. In the New Covenant, a new manifestation was given which is tongues. In Acts they either spoke in unknown tongues or the known language when they were filled with the Spirit, both are utterance and they are the uttrances I make reference to in my post. Charisma is outworking grace and it gives empirical knowledge of the Holy Spirit, or Jesus, or the Father. I am a Trinitarian not Oneness. Glad to hear from you again.
Al,
You are so predictable , working from your systematic theology platform. Spirit moved first then God said. If you had known you would know .Tecnically you lost the bet. Utterance by the Spirit,in my definition,
would be in a known or unknown language. The tongue is the most unruly member of the body and no man can tame the tongue. Yielding the tongue to the Holy Spirit means yielding the most unruly member of the body to God. Then Jesus is truly the Lord over you.
Keep searching, (we) only know in part.
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Springs
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| Posted 1/10/2003 5:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Ron,
Thanks for the response. I’m no theologian but I will answer as best I can. I believe that God calls all people, so I guess the beginning of our interaction with the Spirit is on his initiation. Prevenient grace? When we respond he brings salvation. After that I think the person is in communion with the Spirit. Albeit, with great variation from person to person as to the level of interaction. How well they listen, how obedient they are to what they hear, etc.
Beyond that I think that we are also anointed for ministry. While this is most often apparent in preaching or teaching I think there are other forms too. For instance, in Acts one passage says the preaching was anointed, another says the Spirit fell on the those listening, so they could receive it. Certainly there have been times when the Spirit spoke through me. But there are many more times when the Spirit spoke to me.
I don’t believe in transubstantiation like the Catholics, but I think the Lutherans are onto something when they express how the Spirit of God is in (anoints) communion. So although we should not perform rites as a magical way of dispensing the spirit, I have found that God consistently honors those who partake of communion with humble hearts.
High church rituals certainly should not be a substitutions for interaction with the Spirit but they go a long way in preparing the heart for receiving the Spirit.
Surely, I am most often I am anointed when I do ministry. And again most often that involves me speaking audibly. However, there have been times when I was completely alone when the Spirit anointed me, and I did not speak, I only prayed or acted.
Springs
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rsirkel
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| Posted 1/10/2003 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Springs,
I appreciate your reply and sharing your experience of the anointings and understanding you have. I don't disagree with anything you said and would comment, I feel very comfortable with what you say. 1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. The word operations is energy and in the body of Christ its diverse. Wouldn't you say the manifestation of the Spirit is a definite experience in a persons life? The experience in particular I see in the book of Acts, that is for all that the Lord our God shall call, is the experience of being filled (immersed) with the gift of the Holy Spirit and continuing to be filled. In analogy, when the water level may get low at times and experience asks, where is He? Then we pray or praise to be filled again, in reality He is always here, just not revealed to the natural senses.When the water level starts to overflow, we know it, like, draw nigh unto God and He will draw nigh unto you. A person might ask how do we know when He draws nigh? Well He is other than ourselves and this we experience. There is something about this ebb and flow that teaches us our dependence upon the Spirit. Neglect not the gift that is in thee.
Ron Sirkel | | Back to Top | | |
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