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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/24/2004 4:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | TGB,
quote:
Jeff: I guess I would say that God's knowledge is "perfect" in the sense that He knows all that is necessary to accomplish His ends plus any other knowable fact that He chooses to know.
Tom: This seems problematic. It certainly doesn’t qualify as a definition of “omniscience” on any account, for there would remain truths God would not know. You’re better off just admitting that God isn’t omniscient, because what you’re describing isn’t anywhere close.
I have no problem believing that God is not omniscient. I have no intuition that makes me think it and know of no verse that says He is - but if you have such a verse I WILL change my mind. Like I said, I'm not dogmatic.
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It also assumes that God wouldn’t know what he didn’t need to know. You just assume God’s knowledge is merely utilitarian.
I'm not sure ALL of His knowledge is always in His conscious mind - since all of my knowledge is not always in my conscious mind. And I have no reason, at this point, to assume that God would bring to His conscious mind, by recall, thoughts which are disusting to Him unless there is a practical reason for it. I can bring to my mind disgusting memories, but to what end?? Why would that be admirable if there was no practical purpose for it??
quote:
But who are we to say what is useful to God or whether or not God wouldn’t or couldn’t know what is not useful to him?
Not me, and that's the point - since
a) I DON'T know that ALL disgusting contingencies and past events are useful to God, and
b) I DON'T know that He HAS to be conscious of all His knowledge at all times, then
c) I DON'T know that He IS conscious of such thoughts.
In other words, he may be able to forget such knowledge in the sense that they are no longer in His conscious mind. I can choose to remember things - why not God? I still know them in the sense that they are available for recall, but I need NOT recall them to my conscious mind.
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I know that the sun now coming through the window is casting a shadow across my right thigh at roughly a 30 degree angle. That bit of information is not useful to me. There’s no “end” or “purpose” which knowing this serves. But nobody considers such knowledge a weakness. I guess I’m wondering you think God either couldn’t or wouldn’t know what was not useful to him.
That is not a disgusting, morbid thought and, thus, does not address what I was talking about.
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Jeff: I still can't help but wonder if God would ever "remember" sins after the consummation if there was no practical necessity for it.
Tom: I’m questioning not only who are we to say what is “practical” for God, but even if we COULD say what was and wasn’t practically useful to God’s purposes, what reason could we have for believing God couldn’t or wouldn’t know such things?
By reason of the analogy of God's moral nature to ours - WE are moral beings that find some thoughts disgusting and morbid. We consider people who dwell on such thoughts to no useful end, morbid people. I have no reason to assume God is different.
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The analogy you give actually establishes what I’m arguing. The usefulness of locking up an ox can only be determined by foreknowing AT LEAST ONE horrible thing it can do. Don’t get side-tracked in arguing the difference between foreknowing only SOME as opposed to ALL the possible ways an ox might do damage. The point is that the farmer can’t determine the usefulness of locking up his ox at all apart from knowing at least SOME event that establishes that usefulness, and once that event is known, it’s known.
My analogy stands precisely because the distinction between ALL and SOME is valid in it.
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Jeff: If I did contemplate all such evil, would I not be morbid for doing so…?
Tom: Not at all. Knowledge itself isn’t morbid. It’s what you do with that becomes morbid—enjoying thinking about the evil of the events in question, role playing as an evil participant, “getting off” on the disgust of it. God doesn’t do that.
I disagree. People who purposely think of morbid thoughts for no benevolent end ARE SICK independent of what they do.
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Tom: anyhow, we do have examples in the Bible of God contemplating future contingent evil, so that kind of settles it. Exodus 13:17: When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, "If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt."
Jeff: Note the necessity here, though, of considering contingencies to be able to ensure the desired ends. That verse also seems to make more sense in the OV, doesn't it?
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This distinction won’t work, Jeff. Again, knowledge of possible events PRECEDES establishing their usefulness, for it is BY foreknowing them that God relates them to his purposes and so establishes their usefulness. But once he foreknows them, they’re known. There’s no escaping knowing them if their usefulness is to be determined.
I don't see how you're disagreeing with me. God did not have to contemplate every conceivable way a war would turn out to know that any war might have caused the Israelites to return to Egypt.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/29/2004 9:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
I skimmed thru (admittedly, too fast) that thread you suggested. If I understood you correctly, you pretty much agree with me - the verse in 1 John is equivocal and the other's quoted there were irrelevant. I simply don't see how we can know from philosophy or scripture that God has knowledge of all contigencies or that He has ALL of His actual knowledge constantly in His conscious mind.
In that thread, I was playing the devil's advocate a bit, trying to get others to chime in on a very good question that had been posed to me, but I don't recall ever saying that the other verses quoted were as you say, "irrelevant." I do believe there is scriptural basis for the doctrine of omniscience. However, I have found the amount of evidence is much less than I had previously assumed.
quote:
Why can't God have some knowledge the way we do - i.e., "stored" for later recall into His conscience mind when necessary? And why must He recall what He need not recall (or desire not to recall)?
Okay, this seems to be getting into psychology. Even in psychology, it is said that we retain all of our past experiences; we only truly lose a memory due to brain damage. When we say "I forgot" what we are really saying is "I can't recall." Our minds are literally scanning through our "archives" if you will (long-term memory) to find the information we are trying to recall. This is why oftentimes something will come to our mind that we've been trying to recall hours or even days later--our recall is hindered by many things.
That said, in God's case, I honestly don't see how He could really have a problem recalling things. Most of our lack of ability to recall is due to our finiteness and physiological and psychological state (such as dehydration, fatigue, information overload, etc). As God is a Spirit who never grows weary and has no physical limitation to hinder his thought processes, it would not seem reasonable to me to say God ever has trouble recalling things.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/29/2004 5:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
I still don't see that you're disagreeing with me. If you concede that God does not NECESSARILY have ALL of His knowledge in His conscious mind at ALL times, then God may be said to "forget" in the figurative sense that He will never PURPOSELY recall to His conscious mind certain things which He COULD recall if He wanted to.
Hi Jeff,
I don't recall ever using the term "conscious mind" with regard to God. I don't see the conscious/unconscious terminology as applying to God. Sorry if anything I said gave you that impression.
The reason most of us hold that God knows all contingencies is because we do find Scripture to teach that "His understanding is infinite."
Ps 147:5 Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
Is 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, does not faint or grow weary; there is no searching of His understanding.
I appreciate your challenging posts, Jeff. Again, I have never meant to say or even imply that I don't believe God has a part of His mind which is somehow unconscious.
Also, my understanding of God forgetting is that it is simply a Hebraic idiom meaning basically that God chooses not to hold it against the one he has forgiven, not that he literally forgets.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/30/2004 4:11 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
Thanks for the clarification. The misunderstanding was probably my fault - and I apologize now for any future occurrences of the same! I'm usually in a hurry trying to make my posts due to lack of time, and probably pretty careless in my wording.
I'm no Hebraist, but I think I've read at one point that Psalms 147:5 is saying that God's knowledge is "perfect." When I get time I'll try to verify that. If I'm right, though, it's kind of like the 1 John verse - somewhat equivocal.
quote:
I don't recall ever using the term "conscious mind" with regard to God. I don't see the conscious/unconscious terminology as applying to God. Sorry if anything I said gave you that impression.
Nor do I know my view to be correct. But since God purposely uses language that indicates He may have such a mind, I don't rule it out. I would argue that the rule of parsimony would compel us to believe that He DOES have some kind of recall capability unless we have other philosophical/scriptural reasons for believing otherwise. The scripture verses, to me, don't rule it out.
quote:
The reason most of us hold that God knows all contingencies is because we do find Scripture to teach that "His understanding is infinite."
Is 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, does not faint or grow weary; there is no searching of His understanding.
Doesn't the scripture talk about the innumberable quantity of sea creatures, sand of the sea, stars of the heavens, etc.? I need to look at those verses and check out the Hebrew before I can be convinced by Is. 40:28.
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Also, my understanding of God forgetting is that it is simply a Hebraic idiom meaning basically that God chooses not to hold it against the one he has forgiven, not that he literally forgets.
I have no problem with that. But if God has true recall ability, it may imply more.
The bottom-line is, I can't convince myself (yet, at least) philosophically or scripturally that God DOESN'T have recall capability OR that He needs to know ALL contingencies to execute His plans successfully. Until I can be convinced, parsimony tells me I should hold to the most analogous view of God's intellect. And that being the case, it seems contrary to holiness to have disgusting thoughts in one's mind unnecessarily. But the key to understanding where I'm coming from is my adherence to parsimony, analogy, etc. - inductive axioms that I believe are just as relevant to the understanding of language as any other area of thought.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/31/2004 3:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
I checked out the pictures on your website. You have a beautiful family; thanks be to God for His beneficence!!
How very kind of you, Jeff. Yes, I am unbelievably blessed. | | Back to Top | | |
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