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Asher
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 6/5/2003 4:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi,
Quick background: became a Christian in an independent Baptist church. Fundamentalist, but not hyper-fundie. Soft-Calvinist theology, but not stressed much except for Perseverence of the Saints...i.e. eternal security of the believer. In Albania for a few years as a missionary. Came back to the states and realized the changes in me and my family when we started visiting our supporting churches, and this before I'd ever heard of Openness. Basically been home-churching for several years now with some friends as we haven't been able to find a church nearby that even comes close to our views. Now adding Openness to my long list of heresies ;) Oh well, it only hurts the first 20 or 30 times you're called a heretic ;)
Anyways...my immediate questions are three:
1) I'm working through Openness in my thoughts and life...implications etc. My prayer life is revitalized! But there are many other areas where Openness hasn't taken full sway yet. One is concerning the issue of eternal security of the believer. I have moved toward Openness on this but would like some input and explanation from some of you who have worked through these kinds of things already. I realize that many of you may have been Arminian before moving toward OV, is there anyone who was more on the soft-Calvinist end of the spectrum? Though all comments will be deeply appreciated.
So, I have come this far and still thinking...if you can choose to accept God's grace you can choose to leave just as freely. That in itself is a huge change for me. Now moving on to the issue of sin (and pardon me if I misunderstand or misrepresent Arminianism...please educate me) I have family members who are Methodists and others who are General Baptists (Arminian). My General Baptist family members believe you lose your salvation if you sin and don't repent. Is this true Arminianism? Is this true of OV? I realize this is a complicated issue. I have family members whose views on this whole topic seem like "cheap grace" to me, and not "cheap grace" in the usual use of the term (i.e. used in reference to TULIP churches who believe that once you are a Christian, no sin, not even continual, will cause you to lose your salvation) but "cheap grace" in the sense that they think it is so easy to lose you salvation that I would wonder about the efficacy of Redemption itself if it was as easy to lose your salvation as they let on.
My thoughts have been kind of running like this lately: No sin in itself will throw away your salvation, but the danger may lie in the fact that sin, and especially sin that we don't deal with quickly, has the effect of hardening us, thus LEADING TO a turning away from God.
This may be coming from the fact that I still have lots of Baptist baggage hanging on, but I still see many, many passages of Scripture that point in the direction of eternal security...but I am now also beginning to understand where Arminians are coming from on the issue, and especially with regards to the verses they put forward for their view.
Again, I am not congealed on this topic and invite all comments. Help me out here! So far I have read The Openness of God, God of the Possible, God at War, Satan and the Problem of Evil, Most Moved Mover...just started reading The God who Risks by Sanders and God, Time, and Knowledge by Hasker.
Though this topic has been touched on in all these books (well, the ones I've finished anyway), none go into much detail, except Pinnock in MMM...but still it only directly addresses the topic in four paragraphs. So, as well as welcoming your comments I ask if there is a book you would recommend that more fully goes into this particular aspect, whether from an Openness position or more traditional Arminian one.
2) Anyone know of any Openness churches or pastors near Madisonville, KY or Evansville, IN? I live about midpoint between the two.
3) I have read on the board about various conferences, etc about Openness, I know various churches and pastors from many different denominations have taken Openness positions, but has there been any talk of a denomination forming around Openness? Perhaps it is too early for this to have come about, perhaps many Openness pastors will sit tight in their current denominations as long as they aren't ousted, etc. Where I'm coming from is this...I was an independent Baptist missionary, took my first furlough and realized that I had changed, addressed my changes to my pastor, my mission leaders, my supporting churches and pastors...and was labeled a heretic for my views of Bible translations, giftings of the Spirit, and a potpourri of other issues. I'm not in touch with most of my former Baptist acquantainces, but for them, Openness would definitely be the crowning jewel in my crown of heresy. So I am left with the question of how will I ever serve as a missionary again? Now I was already in this boat before Openness, as a formulated system, was even known to me...but I am wondering if by accepting Openness I have moved closer to or farther from being able to return to the field...not that that would have any effect on whether I continue pursuing Openness, it wouldn't...but I'm just wondering if there is any Openness organization taking place?
Thanks,
Rob
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Christian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 6/5/2003 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | I have no answers for you, but hope someone will answer your last question because I also have wondered this very thing. You said you have a hard time finding an openeness church and pastor. I don't think there are many (any?) are there? I no of none, but that is not to say there aren't any. Are there any? I know that Boyd is an openess pastor but unsure about his church- is it considered an openess church? Are the staff OVers? Members? It would not surprise me if the OV broke off as a separate tradition/denomination in the future.
Rob said, has there been any talk of a denomination forming around Openness? Perhaps it is too early for this to have come about, perhaps many Openness pastors will sit tight in their current denominations as long as they aren't ousted, etc."
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 6/5/2003 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Rob,
As one of the "new kids on the block" let me suggest that you read Arminius to see what he had to say on security. I think you will find that it doesn't agree with your General Baptist family or the Methodists or many of the Freewill Baptists (might as well throw in the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, Assembly of God, United Pentecostals and a host of other denominations). When addressing the issue of security, Arminius basically presents the position of the security of the believer. Meaning the believer is secure, one can stop believing, but that is the only way to lose your salvation. According to Arminius, it is relatively rare and not anywhere near being a common happening.
A second regeneration from the apostate state would negate the "it is impossible ... to renew them again unto repentance" of Hebrews 6.4,6. The Calvinists would say that person has never been saved in order to justify their being in a lost state and allow for a future conversion, whereas Arminius would recognize their fallen state and deny a future regeneration (or renewing to repentance).
Coming from a Southern Baptist background (1952-1994), I don't really know what the OV position is on this issue. I know the Freewill Baptists helped convince me that the security of the believer is the correct position instead of OSAS or repeated regeneration.
One of the regulars can enlighten you better on the OV.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/5/2003 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Rob, and welcome!
From what I know there is no single view among Open Theists about the possibility of a believer apostasizing. I personally don't use the terminology "lose your salvation" in reference to apostasy, as to my mind that sounds as if it could be an accidental thing.
Coming from a Pentecostal (basically Arminian) background, I basically agree with how you put it when you said:
quote:
My thoughts have been kind of running like this lately: No sin in itself will throw away your salvation, but the danger may lie in the fact that sin, and especially sin that we don't deal with quickly, has the effect of hardening us, thus LEADING TO a turning away from God.
But again, I don't perceive of sin as something that has an inherent ability in itself to "throw away" one's salvation; rather, I see the continuing in unrepentant sin as the believer turning his back on Christ. But again, I don't see it as a momentary "zap" and "poof," now you're not saved!, but rather an attitude of hardening one's heart through the deceitfulness of sin.
Another very important point, which I owe to Dr. Boyd, is the idea that though we have free will, with every choice, we in fact become less free, whether towards good or towards evil. Doc calls this process "character solidification." Basically this can be stated as:
Choices when persisted in become habits.
Habits when persisted in form character.
And character determines destiny.
The very helpful and practical aspect of this view is that ideally as we progress in our relationship with God, we become more and more secure (our character becomes more and more stabilized) to the point where we simply wouldn't choose to forsake him, for we have learned
discipline. I also should add that I do believe a true Christian will repent whenever he does sin, but that we must not continue in sin.
I understand a very good book on this is _Life in the Son_ by Robert Shank. I think Dr. Boyd also talks about this in some detail in his books, but I can't recall right now precisely where.
quote:
but I'm just wondering if there is any Openness organization taking place?
I do not know of any presently. I am ordained with the Church of God (Cleveland, TN), which is a Wesleyan Pentecostal organization. So far apart from my senior pastor getting upset with me a time or two and forbidding me to teach the Open View in his church, I haven't had too hard a time. I am hoping to get back into pastoring my own church soon, Lord willing. In my experience, people are fine with Openness-type statements until you say, "God doesn't know precisely what will happen in the future." That one will get you hanged.
On second thought, Youth With A Mission is a missions organization that has embraced the Open View for decades. As far as I know, they are primarily a short-term missions group, but who knows? It may be worth looking into.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/6/2003 1:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Rob-
From one missionary to another, welcome aboard!
On eternal security, there is no official open view. Since libertarian free will is necessary to the open view, you’ll probably find that most do believe in the genuine possibility of apostasy. Those who deny this possibility I think do so in two ways: 1) they may argue that the new birth removes our libertarian free will in one specific matter: choosing to apostatize; or 2) they may argue that over time, as a believer is sanctified and her will becomes more set, libertarian free will gives way to compatibilistic free will and apostatizing becomes an impossibility. But this latter impossibility would apply to VERY mature believers (your Mother Teresas, Paul the apostles, and Greg the Boyds  ).
Rob: My General Baptist family members believe you lose your salvation if you sin and don't repent. Is this true Arminianism? Is this true of OV?
Tom: Naw. It’s not true of either Arminianism or the OV.
Rob:My thoughts have been kind of running like this lately: No sin in itself will throw away your salvation, but the danger may lie in the fact that sin, and especially sin that we don't deal with quickly, has the effect of hardening us, thus LEADING TO a turning away from God.
Tom: Exactly. Which is perhaps why the writers of Hebrews speaks of the “deceitfulness” of sin.
--------------
Sorry to hear about your being labeled a heretic by your former friends and colleagues. I would be interested in hearing how you came to hear of the open view, what started you thinking on it, how you found the books, etc.
If you’re still interested in missions, have opened up to the gifts of the Spirit, are an open viewer, etc., write me off-line: opentheist@hotmail.com
Tom 
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