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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 9/25/2010 1:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Mere%20Christianity%20-%20Lewis.pdf

 

3. Time And Beyond Time

It is a very silly idea that in reading a book you must never "skip." All sensible people skip freely

when they come to a chapter which they find is going to be no use to them. In this chapter I am going

to talk about something which may be helpful to some readers, but which may seem to others merely

an unnecessary complication. If you are one of the second sort of readers, then I advise you not to

bother about this chapter at all but to turn on to the next.

In the last chapter I had to touch on the subject of prayer, and while that is still fresh in your mind and

my own, I should like to deal with a difficulty that some people find about the whole idea of prayer. A

man put it to me by saying "I can believe in God all right, but what I cannot swallow is the idea of

Him attending to several hundred million human beings who are all addressing Him at the same

moment." And I have found that quite a lot of people feel this.

Now, the first thing to notice is that the whole sting of it comes in the words at the same moment.

Most of us can imagine God attending to any number of applicants if only they came one by one and

He had an endless time to do it in. So what is really at the back of this difficulty is the idea of God

having to fit too many things into one moment of time.

Well that is of course what happens to us. Our life comes to us moment by moment One moment

disappears before the next comes along: and there is room for very little in each. That is what Time is

like. And of course you and I tend to take it for granted that this Time series—this arrangement of

past, present and future—is not simply the way life comes to us but the way all things really exist We

tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from past to future just

as we do. But many learned men do not agree with that. It was the Theologians who first started the

idea that some things are not in Time at all: later the Philosophers took it over: and now some of the

scientists are doing the same.

Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a

million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little

snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten-thirty—and every other moment from the beginning of the

world—is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has all eternity in which to

listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.

That is difficult, I know. Let me try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I am

writing a novel. I write "Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!" For Mary

who has to live in the imaginary time of my story there is no interval between putting down the work

and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary's maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between

writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit down for three hours and think

steadily about Mary. I could think about Mary as if she were the only character in the book and for as

long as I pleased, and the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary's time (the time inside

the story) at all.

This is not a perfect illustration, of course. But it may give just a glimpse of what I believe to be the

truth. God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried

along in the imaginary time of his own novel He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He

does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only

being He had ever created. When Christ died, He died for you individually just as much as if you had

been the only man in the world.

The way in which my illustration breaks down is this. In it the author gets out of one Time-series (that

of the novel) only by going into another Time-series (the real one). But God, I believe, does not live in

a Time-series at all. His life is not dribbled out moment by moment like ours: with Him it is, so to

speak, still 1920 and already 1960. For His life is Himself.

If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the

whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave

A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside

or all round, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

The idea is worth trying to grasp because it removes some apparent difficulties in Christianity. Before

I became a Christian one of my objections was as follows. The Christians said that the eternal God

who is everywhere and keeps the whole universe going, once became a human being. Well then, said

I, how did the whole universe keep going while He was a baby, or while He was asleep? How could

He at the same time be God who knows everything and also a man asking his disciples "Who touched

me?"

You will notice that the sting lay in the time words: "While He was a baby"—"How could He at the

same time?" In other words I was assuming that Christ's life as God was in time, and that His life as

the man Jesus in Palestine was a shorter period taken out of that time—just as my service in the army

was a shorter period taken out of my total life. And that is how most of us perhaps tend to think about

it. We picture God living through a period when His human life was still in the future: then coming to

a period when it was present: then going on to a period when He could look back on it as something in

the past. But probably these ideas correspond to nothing in the actual facts.

You cannot fit Christ's earthly life in Palestine into any time-relations with His life as God beyond all

space and time. It is really, I suggest, a timeless truth about God that human nature, and the human

experience of weakness and sleep and ignorance, are somehow included in His whole divine life. This

human life in God is from our point of view a particular period in the history of our world (from the

year A.D. one till the Crucifixion). We therefore imagine it is also a period in the history of God's own

existence. But God has no history.

He is too completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of

your reality (because it had already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part

(because it is still in the future): in fact having nothing but the tiny little present, which has gone

before you can speak about it. God forbid we should think God was like that. Even we may hope not

to be always rationed in that way.

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all

believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do soand-

so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking

that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead

and we cannot.

Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be

free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call

"tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today." All the days are "Now" for

Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because,

though you have lost yesterday. He has not.

He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though

tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment

were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions

in just the same way—because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He

does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is

already "Now" for Him.

This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it alone. It is a "Christian idea" in

the sense that great and wise Christians have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity.

But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian without accepting

it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all

 
 
 


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Tom
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   Posted 9/25/2010 1:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: Seems pretty clear to me that if God were necessarily temporal (and verb-ing, viz., 'changing') then there are in fact an infinite number of discrete, countable, changes to arrive at the point of creation.

Jeff: Well, that is inconceivable. Because there's no such thing as an "infinite number."

Tom: Exactly. But you know, Jeff, that this is why those who argue for the impossibility of a temporally infinite past argue so. There is no infinite 'digit' or 'numeral'. If you attempt to count to 'infinity' you can never 'get there'. Similiarly a necessarily temporal God couldn't 'get to' the point of creation (or any point really) because that would amount to having crossed through what is impossible to cross through--an infinite number of changes (or mind, or discrete experiences). In other words, it's precisely because there is no actual infinite number that God cannot be temporally eternal, for if God has a temporally eternal past he can at any point say "I've had an infinite number of experiences," or "I've thought an infinite number of thoughts." If this is impossible to say, then it's impossible to do, and if impossible to do, then, well, there you have THEIR argument. Rather than argument against this (because I don't see any GOOD way to defeat it), I concede it. But then I offer a MORE inconceivable supposition, viz., atemporal personhood. So I'm faced with two contrary suppositions which each have independent claims that seem conclusive (but which cannot both be true).

--------------

Tom: If I was the only one supposing it I'd doubt myself, but dude, come on...a LOT of smart folk out there see this.

Jeff: I don't know what it even means to talk about a necessary being whose attributes are only conceivable AFTER some "beginning."

Tom: I can appreciate that. But I can at least appeciate the other argument as well--which is why I'm a bit torn.

Jeff: And, yeah, Craig is a smart guy. But he's also opposed to open theism. So what do we do?

Tom: Let's kick his butt!!!! ;o)

T


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One Love
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   Posted 9/25/2010 4:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thought (heavily influenced by James Loder, SK, and Kallistos Ware):

How is psychological "clock" time overcome and eternity experienced in the life of the Christian?

I say by choosing oneself in the Spirit of God (SK's relating oneself to oneself and willing to be oneself in being established in the Power that creates oneself ) How? Think about this. Active choice is only done "now". We don't choose in the past or the future, even though past and future are always linked to whatever choice we make in the "Now." Human mediation of the poles of possibility/actuality, infinite/finite, intelligible/sensible all occur at the point of DECISION which happens in the "Now." So when we live by the free exercise of our wills in mindful choosing ourselves in the Spirit's power, we truly come into being. Actually, we bring past, present, and future together in said act because any decision consciously made in the present bears the marks of past understanding and the seed of future occurances. So, human LIFE is LIVED in the "Now.

Next...

if we take the idea that God is always choosing to creatively sustain created time and space (ie time and space are God Himself working on our behalf), then God's always doing that "now." God doesn't sustain the past or future...he sustains the whole Creation by his WILL and creative choices of will are done in the "Now." Like Oral Roberts used to say...God is a God of the Now!

So...when a person self-relates and wills to be themselves in the "Now" in and through the Spiritual Presence of the Creator who is ALSO in the "Now as Grace towards Creation...that person is actually experiencing "eternal" life...because eternal life, Christianly speaking, is KNOWING (present-tense) the Triune God in the "Now."

Paul's teaching about "praying without ceasing" puts all this together, I think.  As one becomes continual hesychastic prayer, one CANNOT say that "eternal life" exists at some particular state in the FUTURE...or in some glory day of the PAST.  Intimate knowledge of God is always happening NOW.

Indwelling God's Love frees one from defining oneself via the "arrow of time" and the fear of eventual, final entropy...while allowing that one to be fully embedded in time, REDEEMING the time for God's Will.

Makes sense?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Post Edited (One Love) : 9/25/2010 4:40:45 PM (GMT-5)

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Similitude
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   Posted 9/25/2010 6:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Tom: If you attempt to count to 'infinity' you can never 'get there'. Similiarly a necessarily temporal God couldn't 'get to' the point of creation (or any point really) because that would amount to having crossed through what is impossible to cross through--an infinite number of changes (or mind, or discrete experiences).

Jeff: But note, "attempting to count to infinity" entails a beginning of that process. This is what is not the case with God's existence if He is temporal. There are things about such a conception that are mysterious in the sense that we can't analyze things we would like to. But mystery exists either way. But at least we are not stuck with the inconceivability of divine persons relating to another atemporally. At least our normal conception or relating works if the godhead is temporal.

It seemed that Noah Porter conceived of time and space as beings, too, but not self-existent beings. And you know how much an admirer I am of his analytical prowess. But I think even he was wrong on this one. To me, the very concept "existence" is only conceived of in its full import in terms of spatial relations.

As D says, everything is done in the "now." But it seems equally true, to me at least, that the very meaning of "now" is only understood in terms of a correlative relationship with "before" and "after." And yet, what sense does it make to speak of the "before" and "after" as existing? None, to me. Time and space are just frames of reference which are conceived as infinite insomuch as the finite is correlative with the infinite to our minds. This allows us to conceive of God as necessarily existent in that temporal sense, alone, regardless whatever other sense He may be a necessary being.

 


 


 

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Tom
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   Posted 9/25/2010 9:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: But note, "attempting to count to infinity" entails a beginning of that process. This is what is not the case with God's existence if He is temporal.

Tom: Right. He's always been counting, which is the problem, not an escape from it. The issue here is pretty much established among philosophers I think. But I did drop in to ask you what you both did with this particular problem, and you were kind enough to tell me. Thanks much!

Hugs,
Tom


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Similitude
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   Posted 9/26/2010 10:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not seeing why God has to be counting anything. But again, if by "counting" you're implying an intiation of a count, then clearly that creates the problem you're talking about. But if there was no such initiation, I have no idea what you're meaning by the problem.

There is a sense in which I see the problem for the point of view of open theism. Per my understanding of open theism, I have no reason to believe that God had ALWAYS foreknown any distantly-future event. Therefore, there would be no reference point which God could have considered the point "zero" from which to calculate a specific number of any given "now" that God experienced. But all that means is that there is no reason to believe God would have been counting at all. And if He wasn't counting, He certainly didn't INITIATE a count.

On the other hand, if God has the absolute foreknowledge Craig claims He has, then He has ALWAYS had at least the reference point we call the initial act of creation of our world to use as the "zero" point of the time-line. From that, He could have clicked off the appropriate negative number to match the time of any given "now" God experienced.

But I think there are coherence problems with that view of God's foreknowledge in the first place because of the problems it creates for coherently conceiving of volitionally-caused events. So I don't see that as a solution to anything.

To me, it's simple to just realize that we can't make sense of total, absolute foreknowledge in the first place. Given that, we have no reason to believe God was or needed to be counting at all. Thus, the supposed problem of God's counting out "an infinite series" is non-existent.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 9/26/2010 4:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Newcomb: Space is uncreated, but not matter.
 
Jeff: Right, but I'm saying space is uncreated because space is not a "being" at all. It's just a kind of frame of reference which human minds have to think in terms of to apply particular spatial relationships to actual "beings." Only "beings" can be created--i.e., "come into" existence.
 
Dr. Newcomb: Not even dark matter which is the matrix, the material, the base into which the visible matter is held. It is what God "stretched forth" (some 17 references in the OT) at the creation to pull it into its size.
 
Jeff: So are you saying that Humphrey rejects the Einsteinian view that space itself is stretched? I was not aware of that.
 
Dr. Newcomb: The dimensions are necessary (uncreated) the matter is created.
 
Jeff: I would say dimensions are necessary in the sense that humans have to conceive of beings in terms of spatial relationships, and spatial relationships are only intelligible in terms of dimensions. But that doesn't mean that space, time, or their respective dimensions are BEINGS.
 
I think we get in trouble when we start getting pulled into the fallacy of thinking that because something is articulated as a noun that it is a being. But "goodness" is a noun, but is "goodness" a being? It doesn't follow that because something is thought of as a noun that it is actually a being.


 

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Tom
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   Posted 9/26/2010 5:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What does space separate in the absence of matter? That is, what has spatial dimension (height, length, width) in the absence of all matter?

T


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Similitude
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   Posted 9/26/2010 6:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: What does space separate in the absence of matter? That is, what has spatial dimension (height, length, width) in the absence of all matter?
 
Jeff: In the absence of all matter, perhaps nothing HAS 3-dimensionality. But that doesn't mean that God didn't conceive of matter using the relation of dimensionality. Surely we do. Why not God? There's only a problem when we keep trying to think of all nouns as BEINGS. Dimensions aren't BEINGS that actually EXIST.


 

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Tom
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   Posted 9/26/2010 7:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dimensions aren't beings. I get that. But to say that sans creation God's thoughts, or his conceiving, of matter in terms of dimensionality is NOT the same as saying 'space' is uncreated. I think by 'space' you mean the NOTION of space. Surely that's uncreated. I have no problems here. I mean the instantiation of space...i.e., it's actuality, not just it's conceptuatlity, and therefore the instantiation of its dimensions (its dimensions being coterminuous with its actual instantiation). I understood you to be saying 'space' in THIS sense is uncreated, which would entail matter and dimensionality. But you say the latter (matter) is created.
So to clarify...is it the NOTION of space that's uncreated or its instantiation?

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Similitude
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   Posted 9/26/2010 10:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: So to clarify...is it the NOTION of space that's uncreated or its instantiation?
 
Jeff: I don't know what it means to "instantiate" non-being. And to mind, neither space nor time are beings. They are MERELY the frames of reference that are conceptually necessary to conceive of certain kinds of relations.
 
The easiest way to see this is to think of time. What does it even mean to say time exists seeing how "exist" is a verb with a tense--the meaning of which is only conceivable in terms of time itself. Any time (no pun intended) we define a thing in terms of itself, we haven't actually defined it. The whole problem with time is that we can't define it as a being without entailing just that kind of circularity in the definition. Thus, to my mind, it can't BE a BEing. Thus, neither are dimensions.
 
But I don't see how a frame of reference is a being in the first place. Our problem is that we don't have a unique term to use to define what it is about time and space that is common about them (e.g., they both have dimensions). "Frame of reference" is the closest thing I can come up with in words.
 
In short, I think we are making category mistakes when we even think of time and space as beings at all. And if they aren't beings, I can't even conceive of what it means to "instantiate" them. If that means that we have to accept as brute facts that time and space are simply frames of reference which are not created, then I just accept that.
 
Sometimes, categories are like that. "Being" is like this as well. How do you define "being" in a non-circular way?


 

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Tom
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   Posted 9/27/2010 6:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: So to clarify...is it the NOTION of space that's uncreated or its instantiation?

Jeff: I don't know what it means to "instantiate" non-being.

Tom: I'm not asking you to instantiate non-being. I'm asking about instantiating properties, and properties can be and are "instantiated." So let me try again to describe what "I" am talking about so you can help me understand you.
 
To instantiate 'space' would be for there to be some actual entity (as opposed to MERELY possible entities) which possesses the dimensions definitive of space--height, width, length. This is different from there existing in God's mind the notion of entities possessing these dimensions.

I'm not supposing time and space to be "beings." I got all that. Dimensions aren't beings. I'm with ya.
 
So let me ask it this way: Do you think there are any necessarily existing entities (objects, or beings) which necessarily possess the dimensions of height, width and length? Or in other words, are there any beings which exist necessarily AND who have height, width and depth? Do you think there are any such objects/entities/beings? Assuming you think God is the only necessarily existing being or entity...do you think God necessarily has height, length, and width? If you think God does NOT necessarily possess height, length and width, then I would say you don't think 'space' is uncreated; you think it's created. But you said 'space' is UNcreated which sounds to me like you think there is some UNcreated entity who possesses these dimensions.
 
Tom


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Similitude
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   Posted 9/29/2010 10:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, my hunch is that we might be wrong to speak of beings as having dimensions. Maybe only space and time have dimensions in the sense we mean by that term. Insomuch as we percieve stuff as extended, we say that stuff has dimensions. But maybe we would be more categorically accurate to say that extension is conceived of IN TERMS of the dimensionality of space. I.e., stuff is percieved to be space-OCCUPYING, which is basically what we mean by extended. And therefore, our conception of said stuff involves the dimensionality OF space.


 

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Tom
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   Posted 9/29/2010 4:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So do you think God perceives himself as space-extended?

I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say space is not created. That would mean (to me) that SOME necessarily existing being/entity perceives itself as space-extended.

Tom


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One Love
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   Posted 9/29/2010 5:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just a thought:

What are "time" and "space" in relationship to the omnipresent, uncreated energies of God? In other words, how does omnipresent, constantly creative divine perspective relate to what we (creatures) call "time" and "space"?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 9/29/2010 5:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Off the wall thought: If matter/energy is basically just "condensations" of Grace (God himself working for creation's existence), and time and space are constructed from perspectives dealing with matter/energy.

So, what would time and space be to God...really?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 9/29/2010 6:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I suppose the question is whether one thinks God ever WILLS to act in response to us who are temporal. In other words, if we ARE irreducibly temporal and if God is really related to us, then what's that say about God?

I agree that if God is temporal, then he's temporal in the sense that time is IN God. He's fully present at each spatial location (or finite event, vzi., limited created perspective) and so cannot depend upon the speed of light for the transfer of information. So what WOULD such events, or perspectives, be to God? God would have to perceive the truth of OUR perceptions and then WITHIN his own perception, relate all the finite perceptions that constitute the world to his own universal perspective. But contrary to process, God's perspectve is MORE than JUST the sum total of all created perspectives.

So within God's own perspective (apprehension of all the universe) is God's own perspective on each of our perspectives, which I think would be HOW God is able to experience the conscious flow of the temporal world.

What I would not want to say is that God's "uncreated energies" are an uncreated package of [i]effective volition[/i] (already completed choices) that lie in wait for their appropriate temporal counterparts in the world to happen (some do, some don't) for those counterparts to then experience God in this or that way. In the end, the question is, do you think there is any potential in God. The Orthodox will say 'no', God never experiences a movement from 'possibly this' to 'actually this' in ANY sense. Hart's gone on and on about this most recently.

Tom


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Similitude
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   Posted 9/29/2010 6:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Tom: So do you think God perceives himself as space-extended?

I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say space is not created. That would mean (to me) that SOME necessarily existing being/entity perceives itself as space-extended.

Jeff: I don't see how that follows. Space is not solid. It's solid, extended beings that we say are space-occupying. Space is the frame of reference in which we can relate places to other places. But a place is not a thing/being. Thus, any finite collection of them is not a being either. "Collections" are a species of abstracta.

Beings exist in some place in space. As such, we could conceive of the Father and the Son not being extended in any dimension of space and still being somewhere with respect to one another, just as are two distinct points, even though points are not extended in space. The difference is, I don't conceive of points as beings. But the Father and Son are, whether extended or not.


 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 9/29/2010 6:12:21 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 9/29/2010 7:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: I don't see how that follows. Space is not solid. It's solid, extended beings that we say are space-occupying. Space is the frame of reference in which we can relate places to other places.

Tom: They WHY do you say 'space' is UNcreated? That's what I've been trying to understand for a while now.

Tom


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Tom
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   Posted 9/29/2010 7:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: Beings exist in some place in space. As such, we could conceive of the Father and the Son not being extended in any dimension of space and still being somewhere with respect to one another, just as are two distinct points, even though points are not extended in space. The difference is, I don't conceive of points as beings. But the Father and Son are, whether extended or not.

Tom: OK then...
 
Perhaps you could find a better word, something other than 'space', to describe the personal distinctions between F, S, and SP. For these persons are not identical. But it seems to me like you want to account for this distinction in terms of space. They are each someWHERE in relation to the other. I wouldn't say it that way because it can (as this thread shows) be very confusing. I'd save "space" for the material world. I wouldn't say F, S, and SP are 'somewhere' with respect to one another--not even in a sense analogous to two distinct points. But maybe that's just me.
 
Perhaps it's because of HOW I do the Trinity, which for me works out in terms of Augustine's (or better, Edwards') psychological analogy. In other words, I talk to myself...I can objectify myself and address myself. But when I objectify myself, the image I 'pull up' or 'beget' (so to speak) is not somewhere with respect to me. Similarly, I take the Logos to be the personified objectification of the Father; i.e., what the Father perceives when he self-perceives, the content of the Father's own self-reflection.
 
Sorry for the rush job.

Thanks!
Tom


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Post Edited (Tom) : 9/29/2010 7:23:09 PM (GMT-5)

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Similitude
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   Posted 9/29/2010 9:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: They WHY do you say 'space' is UNcreated?
 
Jeff: Because I don't know what it means to create something that isn't a being. And I can't conceive of time or space as beings.
 
Tom: Perhaps you could find a better word, something other than 'space', to describe the personal distinctions between F, S, and SP.
 
Jeff: I'm not saying the Father and Son are distinct because of being in distinct locations. They are clearly distinct in other ways. I'm saying it is possible to conceive of the Father and Son being in different locations or the same location since they are not extended, solid beings. As such, it is perfectly sensible to me to conceive of them conceiving of each other in different locations or the same location. Either way, they're using the spatial frame of reference to do it. Just as they would use the temporal frame of reference to think of something they experienced prior to their "now" experience--even if that "now experience occurred sans creation.
 


 

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Tom
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: They WHY do you say 'space' is UNcreated?

Jeff: Because I don't know what it means to create something that isn't a being. And I can't conceive of time or space as beings.

Tom: But Bro, one doesn't need to suppose that space is a being to say its being instantiated is a state of affairs with a beginning. All one says is that God creates beings whose existence is spatial, or beings who are spatially extended. Space need not be a being. It's a property or dimension of beings who begin to exist. But if we follow your logic, then ALL properties are by definition eternal and uncreated simply because they're not "beings." But surely contingent beings can possess SOME properties contingently.

-------------------

Tom: Perhaps you could find a better word, something other than 'space', to describe the personal distinctions between F, S, and SP.

Jeff: I'm not saying the Father and Son are distinct because of being in distinct locations. They are clearly distinct in other ways. I'm saying it is possible to conceive of the Father and Son being in different locations or the same location since they are not extended, solid beings. As such, it is perfectly sensible to me to conceive of them conceiving of each other in different locations or the same location. Either way, they're using the spatial frame of reference to do it. Just as they would use the temporal frame of reference to think of something they experienced prior to their "now" experience--even if that "now experience occurred sans creation.

Tom: If it works for ya! But I gotta say, it's perfectly meaningless to me so say F and S and SP can have different spatial locations. ;o)

Tom


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Similitude
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom: But Bro, one doesn't need to suppose that space is a being to say its being instantiated is a state of affairs with a beginning.
 
Jeff: I don't see it. And it surely can't work for time. For it is the reference frame we call time that actually gives meaning to "being instantiated."
 
Tom: If it works for ya! But I gotta say, it's perfectly meaningless to me so say F and S and SP can have different spatial locations.
 
Jeff: I suspect most dualists quite naturally think of souls/spirits changing locations even though they (i.e., souls/spirits) are non-extended. There is nothing counter-intuitive about it. Dorothy Sanders, for one, explicitly defended the notion.
 
We could say that it is not spirits that have location, but that spirits simply conceive of themselves as being somewhere. But the same implication follows. It means that spirits mean the same thing by their own location as they do of any other point "occupied" by any extended being.


 

Post Edited (Similitude) : 9/30/2010 6:28:55 AM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just thinking out loud here...

I also don't think that "points" (in spite of being defined as having no height, width or length) can be placed at "different locations" apart from some shared frame of reference that IS spatially extended. In other words, we locate two points at different locations by locating them WITHIN a single spatially extended continuum. But I can't imagine different spatial locations in the absence of spatial dimensions.

Tom


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Similitude
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom1: In other words, we locate two points at different locations by locating them WITHIN a single spatially extended continuum.

Tom2: But I can't imagine different spatial locations in the absence of spatial dimensions.

Jeff: I agree with Tom2. But a 3-dimensional frame of reference is not extended. Material beings are, though. The 3-d frame of reference is what gives MEANING to extendedness. If extension and dimensionality meant the same thing, we would never conceive of space at all. For beings, PER SE, would have as attributes everything we needed to make sense of our spatial language.


 

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