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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/3/2003 1:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | OK, I haven't seen this addressed in the forum - if it has been i'd appreciate someone pointing to it.
GOd knows our hearts- our every thought, and intention. Doesn't it follow from that that God knows much of the future? If I am very mad at my ex-husband and intend to kill him, I think in my mind, I am going to kill him. I must formulate the intent in my mind of premeditation. Before I actually complete the act of murder, I knew that I would. Barring something interfering with my intent, I will commit the act. God knows that, right? He's, in effect,a mind reader.
If he so chose, he could intervene to stop the act before committed, since he knows the intention is to commit the act.
There are instances of things that occur due to natural forces, animals, machines, etc., and so no intention is formulated there for God to know. So some of the future may not be predictable. Also, a person may change his mind after forming the intent.
But if the intent is formulated to commit an act, steps are taken to carry that action out- God knows that. According to the NT, your'e just as guilty of action when you have the intention in your mind without even doing the action.
If God knows our every thought and intention, could he not step in and prevent much evil before the action occurred even if he does not perfectly know the future (or see it as a state)? Even if there's a slight chance of a person changing his intent at the last minute, wouldn't it be a better "risk" for God to step in and stop that person from taking the steps to commit the act in case he DOESN't change his mind at the last minute?
What I'm trying to get at (albeit not very well) is OK, maybe God took a risk with creation- he takes a risk every day by allowing the universe to continue existing. But even so, if he knows our thoughts, almost all of human actions are predictable. By NOT stepping in to prevent those actions from coming to fruition- God is determining the future in a backwards way - by allowing things to fall as a domino effect - when he COULD choose to prevent those actions from coming to fruition, thus preventing much evil.
So why does he decide one way or another? And don't Christians believe that at times GOd DOES intervene and save people- heal people, etc.? So he makes a decision sometimes to prevent, other times not to. There must be a perfect criterion for this decision.
Now, if God did not have the ability to know our hearts and minds, and also did not know the future (for whatever reason)- then he would not have the capability of stepping in. And he would really then be "not responsible" (but he'd be pretty impotent).
So do OV'ers believe that he does know our every thought and intention and that if he so chose he could intervene - and by not doing it- he affects the way the events play out?
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/3/2003 1:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Off-topic but RD when do you intend to get back to me with what you think about my idea for a gradualist approach to altering the legal definition of when human life begins???
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 6/3/2003 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey RD,
quote:
Now, if God did not have the ability to know our hearts and minds, and also did not know the future (for whatever reason)- then he would not have the capability of stepping in. And he would really then be "not responsible" (but he'd be pretty impotent).
I don't think this is quite true. God isn't helpless to intervene were it the case that He couldn't read our minds or hearts; it isn't because of being able to read minds and hearts that He's omnipotent--able to do all things. As we've discussed on several threads around here, it is because God knows ALL possibilities that God can be well prepared for anything coming down the pike. He is never caught off guard, not because He can read our minds and hearts, but because there isn't anything humanity can come up with (were God not able to read minds and hearts) that God is not fully aware of as a potential and possibility. That God can read minds and hearts obviously confines us that much more to the finite.
You have hit upon much of the fulcrum of what makes our (Open View) discussions about evil on this board. Specifically, you recognize a perspective of the Open View--actually much, if not all, of the evangelical thinking about God's insight into our hearts and minds--that adds to the question and discussions about evil, the existence of evil, and "Solving the Problem of Evil," just to get DWL's goat!
I figure it this way: first and foremost, since God can and does read our minds and hearts--it's, like, always there in front of him, you know--it stands that much more to reason that there must be darned good reasons why God is either not able to intervene (rules of the game or something like this) or chooses not to intervene. Either way, we trust that God is in control, is never caught off guard, and will see it to the end. Then we'll know the whys.
I realize this does't answer your question. It is, however, the first and foremost of understandings about the subject, in my opinion.
For He who is the great Mind Reader,
Starkman
Am I right? I say, am I right?
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/3/2003 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW: I'll get back to you on that issue after I think about it some more!
Starkman: You said, "He is never caught off guard, not because He can read our minds and hearts, but because there isn't anything humanity can come up with (were God not able to read minds and hearts) that God is not fully aware of as a potential and possibility. "
OK, so if he's not caught off guard - then isnt he responsible? You don't know (as I don't know) why God chooses to intervene sometimes and other times does not. So are you going to deny that his decisions don't "alter" the way history unfolds?
If they do, then it is a slippery slope- b/c how can you differentiate between certain isolated incidences of alteration, and a grand master plan running according to the way God wants. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/3/2003 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | I have had experiences in my life that have shown me that God does act, doesn't let us just flail on our own free-wills. For example, I stayed a student at Bethel College, MN, when I could have gone on to a better academic school because of the birth of my sister when I was 18(Same birthday even). Because of that, I, not only got to have a number of additional courses with GBoyd, received mentorship from a good number of mature Christian friends and was challenged to confront my subject matter(Economics) from a Christian perspective. I also then didn't get accepted into what I thought were "top-notch" economic graduate schools, since hardly anyone had heard of my alma mater. But then I got into Michigan State, which is pretty good and made the acquaintance of Warren Samuels, a brilliant man who I am blessed with the opportunity to live my Christianity before.
Because of that, and a bunch of other stuff, I ended up here in MX, where I am blessed with the opportunity to teach its future leaders(I am at the "Yale" of Mexico). Now, my parents had a still-born a couple of years before they had Cassandra, and after they had Cassandra, my mother's tubes were tied(4 children is enough). So maybe if God had not aborted that earlier fetus, then my life wouldn't have taken the turn it did(for the better)?
So I feel that I have seen God's providence in my life, and did trust God to take care of me, so much that in my last two years of Grad-School, I volunteered a lot of my time to help organize a union for graduate employees there, risking the ire of my department. I felt I owed God big time, since God was responsible for my distinguished fellowship I had.
When I was taking the GRE the second time(the first time I didn't do that well on the analytical section due to my unfamiliarity with the section), I had just finished two analytical sections when to my dismay I had a third section. In this section, I got stuck on a problem at the beginning and had to hurry the rest of the way. When I finished just under the wire, I looked down and saw that I had copied over from the booklet two extra bubbles and so, from that point on, all of my answers would be wrong. I, somehow, worked my way through the rest of the test and was hovering over whether or not I would cancel the whole thing at the end. But, I thought I can write to them, call them up and explain what happened and they can look at my answers on the test-booklet and find where I had made the mistake in transcribing the answers. So I decided not to cancel the test. But all of my flailings to make them correct my error turned out to not work. I guess they couldn't understand me. Anyways, I remember how hard my heart was pounding when I got my scores : I ended up getting above 90th percentiles in all three categories, which then led to me getting my fellowship. In the GRE there is always a test-section, so I had a 1/3 chance the section I goofed on wouldn't be counted, or maybe my mistake took place towards the end of the section. So, yeah, I worked hard in my undergrad days and benefitted in other ways from advantages I had. But, I was where I was in Grad-school with my fellowship freedoms in my fourth year, likely because God wanted me to be there and so I felt compelled to give back.
And things worked out and the ideas I did develop proved useful and conducive to writing papers that were publishable. If I had been just pounding the wall with my head that entire time I was in grad school, I may not have gotten any further than I did. I got through grad-school with the help of my psychologist, dissertation support group and the church and graduate employee union communities. In the latter community, I was the only in-depth exposure some of these people ever had to Christianity.
I would also like to add that Allison Krause's rendition of "There is a Reason" from "So long so wrong" is one of my favorite songs due to how it evokes the reality of suffering and the need to trust God, despite its calvinistic language.
So the above proves nothing, but they illustrate my belief that freedom and predestination are both concepts of value and there is uncertainty regarding how we interpret which is the case. What I see as God telling me "I want you in grad-school here" can be equally interpreted as me getting lucky, big-time. But because I did interpret as a sign from God, I have been blessed.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 06/03/2003 10:34:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/3/2003 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So do OV'ers believe that he does know our every thought and intention and that if he so chose he could intervene - and by not doing it- he affects the way the events play out?
Hi Gina,
OVers do in fact believe God knows our every thought and intention. It is directly affirmed in Scripture that He "searches the hearts and minds," and that the Word of God is able to discern the very thoughts and intentions of the heart. As to why He doesn't (apparently) intervene in most cases, that is a very good question. I think it also ties into His previous choice to grant humans significant moral freedom.
I think another factor is how human prayer and repentance affect God. Scripture is replete with examples of precisely this.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 6/4/2003 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | RD,
quote:
OK, so if he's not caught off guard - then isnt he responsible? You don't know (as I don't know) why God chooses to intervene sometimes and other times does not. So are you going to deny that his decisions don't "alter" the way history unfolds?
First, are the parents to blame when they know that their child may or may not do such-and-such particular act, make that right or wrong decisions, love or hurt someone else (as the parents watch all these events from a distance)? The parents are very aware of what's going on and in some cases can predict what the child will do, because they know their child. Regardless, a real, relationship based on love requires freedom. And the parents are no less culpable for neither intervening in all cases or violating the child's freedom to grow in the experiences of self-determinism. And neither is God culpable, whether He responds, as we believe He should respond, to every situation and event or has set down rules which prohibit Him from doing such. And I don't know if that's what He's done. I'm just making the point.
Second, am I going to deny that God's interactions alter history? Heavens no. That's part of the game. Heck, MY decisions alter history. No biggie. God's still not caught of guard. That is NOT to say that God knows every move man WILL make in the future; it is to say that God can see what is going on in man's mind and heart at that given time regarding what moves man is thinking of making. For instance, what I will do in twenty years is not known to me nor (necessarily) to God. He may pre-determined that I'm to do such-and-such, but otherwise it's open. Either way, he's not held responsible for how He handles and deals with all events of planet earth.
Starkman
Am I right? I say, am I right?
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Christian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 6/4/2003 7:11 PM (GMT -6) | | "A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone
understand his own way?" Proverbs 20:24
"In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines
his steps." Proverbs 16:9
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/4/2003 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | An "intent" is just that, an intent, a plan. It says nothing about the contingent vs. non-contingent nature of what's intended. An "intent" is a present tense reality and God infallibly knows what we intend to do.
If God had not given us the freedom to oppose him, to say 'yes' and 'no' to him, then you could perhaps say that his knowing our intentions would be the basis for his intervening to prevent us from ever saying 'no' to him. But you can't argue FROM God's infallible knowledge of our intentions TO the belief that God is responsible for our saying 'no' to him. Does't work. God can know we intend to say no and not be responsible for our saying no IF he has decided that allowing us to say 'no' to him is a metaphysical requirement for us saying 'yes' to him and so freely loving him - which IS why God created us.
You can know you child intends to do something stupid, something harmful to herself, and you can do all you can to prevent it, but in the end you respect their freedom to choose. THEY'RE responsible.
Instead of assuming from the occurence of evil event B that God must have wanted it to happen and that he did nothing to prevent it. Perhaps he did all he could to prevent it given the rules of engagement. What many OVers argue is that if God is omnibenevolent, then this means something like 'God did all God could do, given the rules governing divine-human relationships that he set up, to prevent evil'.
Tom 
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