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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 7/5/2003 3:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | I have only made it through chapters one and two and WOW! Here are a few tidbits.
"God prescribed every single detail of your body. he deliberately chose your race, the color of your skin, your hair, and every other feature. He custom-made your body just the way he wanted it. He also determined the natural talents you would possess and the uniqueness of your personality."(Pg22-23)Then Psalm 139:15 is quoted.
"Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." (Pg23)ThePsalm 139:16 is quoted.
"God also planned where you'd be born and where you'd live for his purpose. Your race and nationality are no accident. God left no detail to chance." (Pg23) Then Acts 17;26 is quoted.
I am confident that once I get past the deterministic part of the book it will be a great read.
I have read on this board how the OV is gaining acceptance and making in roads. After reading the first two chapters of PDL by Rick Warren I doubt that the OV is making great in roads to the average pew sitter. I am supposed to be in a small group that will discuss the PDL book. Hopefully they will not burn me at the stake for being a heretic!
Some people are like cement. All mixed up and permanently set. | | Back to Top | | |
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 7/9/2003 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | kcy,
I know exactly where you are at. I have a friend who really wanted to read through this book and get together once a week to discuss it. I believe that Rick Warren is definitely not deterministic in his Theology (Calvinistic)- seems to hold to a strong sense of free will in some later chapters (I don't remember right off hand which ones the free will is stressed, I'll have to look) so I think that he is inconsistent, not Calvinistic... Clearly though if man can make choices that go against God's will then God does not choose every detail of your life.
It seems that this is the tension that most Christians live in -- man is free (most common Joe's in the Church are not Calvinistic determinists) but God ordains the events of your life for a reason.
Maybe you can point out this tension in your discussion group....
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/9/2003 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Great book and quotes. You are correct. The OV is not making the inroads boasted of by a few. RW is not an adherent to the view. Denominations throughout history differ on various believes but there has been consensus on God's sovereignty. No denomination believes that God does not know "possiblities." The OV stands alone in this ludicrous claim.
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/9/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
No denomination believes that God does not know "possiblities." The OV stands alone in this ludicrous claim.
Huh? Let me read this back to you and see if it makes sense. No denomination believes that God doesn't know possibilities; however, only the OV stands alone in ... believing that God knows possibilities. Am I reading this correctly?
Hmm. The OV does, indeed, believe that God knows all possibilities. And that denominations believe so too is, well, wonderful. So, what's the point?
Starkman
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/10/2003 8:53 AM (GMT -6) | | The OV is being accepted as a valid Christian position by those that take the time to understand it, even if they do not agree with it.
That aspects of our lives are determined is no big deal. Although, when one considers the chances of any particular sperm inseminating an egg, this may give scope for God to determine who is formed, or it may be a form of indeterminism. The Bible is silent on such things and so we may never know in this lifetime which is which...
You can always bring up the issue of racism to counter Warren's quotes about our race being chosen for us. Clearly, he will bring up the free-will defense to cover his tracks, but one can press on. For example, bring up the role of endocrinology in the determination of one's sexuality. Does God determine that, as well? If so he intended for some individuals to be born as constitutional homosexuals.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 7/12/2003 4:07 AM (GMT -6) | |
TPDL is a good book. I agree with the concept of being created by God and having a purpose. The thing that I am left wondering about is why RW came down so hard on the side of determinism? How does being so deterministic help prove RW's point of being created by God and having a purpose? Can anyone provide additional insight?
Some people are like cement. All mixed up and permanently set. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/12/2003 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
TPDL is a good book. I agree with the concept of being created by God and having a purpose. The thing that I am left wondering about is why RW came down so hard on the side of determinism? How does being so deterministic help prove RW's point of being created by God and having a purpose? Can anyone provide additional insight?
Some people are like cement. All mixed up and permanently set.
If you watch the movie signs it sets out a dichotomy between everything being by chance and the world reflecting a purposeful God. But just because somethings aren't predetermined, doesn't mean there isn't purpose. It just means God's purpose may incorporate some contingencies. I was hit by a car when I was seven. If I had been a half-step further I would have been killed. This revolutionized my life and made me part of who I am today. Now, if say the car had been a little faster or I had been a little faster I would have died at that age. I can acknowledge the possibility of this world existing without me existing and God having a purpose for my life. I don't think, ultimately, my existence matters. If I had died God would still have accomplished his purpose in others lives in some other manner, in all likelihood.
So I think we're just used to thinking of purposefulness in a deterministic manner, but that the concept can be applied to a world with indeterminacy inherent in it.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/12/2003 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Re: Rick Warren-Purpose Driven Life
And, how does this apply to children who are born with a genetic disease such as Tay-Sach’s -- who die horrific deaths at a very young age?
Warren's philosophy implies that God "predestined" their fate (and, illness) -- for some grand purpose.
Absurd.
quote:
Tay-Sach’s Disease
A baby with Tay-Sachs disease appears normal at birth and seems to develop normally until about six months of age. The first signs of TSD can vary and are evident at different ages in affected children. Initially, development slows, there is a loss of peripheral vision, and the child exhibits an abnormal startle response. By about two years of age, most children experience recurrent seizures and diminishing mental function. The infant gradually regresses, losing skills one by one, and is eventually unable to crawl, turn over, sit, or reach out. Other symptoms include increasing loss of coordination, progressive inability to swallow and breathing difficulties. Eventually, the child becomes blind, mentally retarded, paralyzed, and non-responsive to his or her environment.
Most children with Tay-Sachs disease usually die before reaching age 5.
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<><
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/12/2003 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Amen.
quote:
The OV is being accepted as a valid Christian position by those that take the time to understand it, even if they do not agree with it.
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 7/12/2003 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | I HATE Computers!  I just finished a masterpiece post, only to have the system drop it in the bit bucket because I was not logged in! There is no way I will be able to duplicate the post, but I will try to give you a brief summary.
While there many possibilities, as those possibilities become elminated, the outcome is increasingly determined. By the time someone is born to black parents in Africa, the possibility of being born to white parents in Norway has been eliminated.
For the sake of discussion, consider this:
quote:
"God prescribed every single detail of your body. he deliberately chose your race, the color of your skin, your hair, and every other feature. He custom-made your body just the way he wanted it. He also determined the natural talents you would possess and the uniqueness of your personality."(Pg22-23)Then Psalm 139:15 is quoted.
The OV does not prescribe to deism, so while we are largely determined by things such as genetics, environment, and training, God's hand is still on our lives.
The OV does not promote a type of anarchy. It just notes openness. Actually, as Christians, the Lord lives through us. It is like a guitar string. Initially, it is out of tune, but as the master ajust the tension, the string becomes more harmonious with the other strings. In the same way, God, through the Holy Spirit, "tunes" our lives, so that "...as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more." (2 Cor. 3:18 NLT) Yet, all this is done in within the context of our LCF, and along they way, our LCF periodically "goes out of tune." If it was a purely compatibalist relationship, then we would stay in tune.
quote:
"Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born
When is our body given life? Scripture says that God breathes life into us. It is not outside the scope of the OV to believe God intentially joins every soul to every body.
quote:
...and how long you would live.
While we are all likely able to think of exceptions, it seems that life ends very intenionally. Scripture gives many examples where God's direct role in determining a person's death is given (cf. Lk 12:20). It also gives examples where one's allotment is changed (2 Kings 20:6).
quote:
He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." (Pg23)ThePsalm 139:16 is quoted.
Consider the actual verse, and related verses.
16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance.
In your book were written
all the days that were formed for me,
when none of them as yet existed.
Psa. 139:16 (NRSVA)
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living;
let them not be enrolled among the righteous.
Psa. 69:28 (NRSVA)
33But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
Ex. 32:33 (NRSVA)
If you do a study about "God's Books" you find he writes things in them "from the beginning", and they record what we do in our lives, and that he removes things from them.
God has plans and intentions, but we also do not always do what God would prefer.
As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die? Ezek. 33:11 (NLT)
quote:
"God also planned where you'd be born and where you'd live for his purpose. Your race and nationality are no accident. God left no detail to chance." (Pg23) Then Acts 17;26 is quoted.
Acts 17:26 refers to the corporate entities call "the nations"....
From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand which should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries. Acts 17:26 (NLT)
.... so it is not within the context of this verse to apply it to individuals. (However, see my comments, above, about individuals).
quote:
I am confident that once I get past the deterministic part of the book it will be a great read.
As Greg observes in God of the Possible, there are two motifs in the Bible, one of settleness and one of openness.
Interestingly, when it comes to the "purpose of our life", the two motifs typically seem to show up. I haven't read RW's book, but if he "gets it right", he will also deal with openness in life, even though he may not embrace the OV.
Yours in Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
Edited by - Winghead on 07/13/2003 12:51:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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The Traveler
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 7/24/2003 9:16 PM (GMT -6) | | I just wanted to say that i'm reading this book, and it is realy great.
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