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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:02 PM (GMT -6) |   | Earp - I'm credulous as to how you think that somehow you are "off the hook" as to loving your enemies. You obviously harbor great hatred towards JOhn Calvin. Regardless of what he did, it is not healthy to have such anger and resentment towards a fellow Christian, especially one who died 500 years ago.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:06 PM (GMT -6) | | RD:
Jesus said, "love your enemies." Jesus said that those who did not obey him were not truly his disciples. Therefore, it is a matter of fact that Calvin was not a true Christian.
No hatred involved in this at all. Pure logic, based on Jesus' own litmus test for who was and who wasn't a true follower of Him.
Why do you say, "Lord, lord," and do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46)
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:07 PM (GMT -6) | | By the way, PoW, I HAVE read Calvin's Institutes. I am not ignorant of what he wrote.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | This takes the cake! Now you're somehow qualified to judge that Calvin was not a Christian! Wow. How utterly repulsive that is, that you think you can read the hearts of humans as well as God.
Be that as it may, if, as you say, Calvin was without God, he is still your enemy, whom Christ commanded you to love and forgive.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
This takes the cake! Now you're somehow qualified to judge that Calvin was not a Christian! Wow. How utterly repulsive that is, that you think you can read the hearts of humans as well as God.
Actually, it is not I who is judging Calvin--Jesus' own words in Scripture are.
quote:
Be that as it may, if, as you say, Calvin was without God, he is still your enemy, whom Christ commanded you to love and forgive.
So loving a person = passivity? God's forgiveness (which we are commanded to emulate) is in all cases conditional. This is plainly taught in the Gospels. God's love also does not automatically "accept" the actions of everyone as okay.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | John and Pow, twenty paces, dueling Governors.
Mine commuted the sentences of 167 condemned prisoners of the State of Illinois. www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/11/illinois.death.row/ THAT follows Biblical mandate.
Yours carried out the execution of a Christian woman who had repented, turned her life around, and had become a standard of what the penetentiary theory is all about. YOURS is an Evangelical Christian who publicises his faith. But yours is inconsistent in being "Pro-Life" but also "pro-capital-punishement.
John Calvin was a defacto, regional governor in a Church-State system. A condemned man (twice) entered his jurisdiction, flaunted his presence and political influence, and got himself arrested.
Now, I PERSONALLY am anti-capital-punishement (unlike your governor--now President). But I do understand the politics of a governor who does believe in it carrying it out.
How consistent are you being, John?
Are you consistently Pro-Life?
As a TEXAN, do YOU believe in capital punishment. Do you VOTE anti-capital-punishment? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John Earp
By the way, PoW, I HAVE read Calvin's Institutes. I am not ignorant of what he wrote.
Tell me something good that he wrote, something that you highly appreciate. Otherwise you are ignorant of him. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | As the subject is the burning of heretics, not murderers, the issue you raise does not impinge upon the question at hand.
By the way, I live in Michigan. I originally am from Texas. I believe the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) allows for capital punishment IF the punishment fits the crime, as in Gen. 9:6 (he who sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed), and as Paul said, "If I have done anything WORTHY of death..."
Acts 25:11 "If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is {true} of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar."
But again, this does not at all affect the issue of the execution of people simply for disagreeing with ecclesiastical dogma or Calvin's opinions.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/21/2003 11:06:31 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:57 PM (GMT -6) | | So Earp, on what grounds is Calvin not a Christian? If you say murder, you do know that Jesus said that anyone who hates his brother is a MURDERER don't you? Wouldn't that also make you guilty of the same crime and thus, not a Christian? It's obvious you hate Calvin. Repulsive is a good word describing what it is like to listen to you judge who is an who isn't a true bonafide Christian. You weren't there when Calvin took his last breathe to hear whatever words he uttered now were you? You do know that theif on the cross don't you? The one who uttered one short sentence, heard by Jesus alone, in the last minutes of his life and thus was SAVED? Unless you were there hearing Calvin's last dying words, I don't think you're qualified to boast of his lack of salvation.
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Earp - what do you think of the God-imposed executions in the OT? When Saul was explicitly punished by God for NOT killing every man, woman and child during a battle?
I myself am anti-death penalty. Therefore I do NOT agree with Calvin's actions. Far from it . But we have to look at it in the historical context - at that time, as POW says, there was a governing body, of which Calvin was a governor, who had the authority to impose the death penalty. Not unlike some states which give that authority to judges and juries today, and give the governor absolute power to commute those sentences. Are you going to hold George W responsible for all the deaths that occurred on his watch? And surely, some of those who were executed were innocent.
I live in Chicago- in a state where the death penalty has been put on moratorium due to the fact that 12 death row prisoners were PROVEN innocent after the fact. If, in fact, they had been executed, are you prepared then to say that Gov. Ryan was personally responsible for their deaths?
This is NOT such a simplistic issue as you make it out to be. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/21/2003 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Okay, okay. By your logic, which I of course must concede, a pedophile priest is likewise a real Christian.
I don't hate Calvin; what you are doing is projecting YOUR emotional reaction to my statements onto me, and thereby are making a judgment of my character. Oh well. I simply believe that we ought not to look up to a person as some kind of great theologian if his life betrays him as an evil man, and an evil man who never publicly repented of bringing about the burning at the stake of Miguel Servetus.
PoW: I have no desire to post anything by Calvin. I have read his Institutes. I am not "ignorant" of his words, as you say. I have absolutely zero interest in studying him any further, based on what I already know from what I have already read.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 6:24 PM (GMT -6) | | John, realize for an instant, that what you are REALLY talking about is Calvin practicing capital punishment -- not mass murder. (This is obvious; so I'll proceed.)
Compare Calvin to the former Texas Governor.
quote:
Yhe former Texas Governor's record as Governor of Texas to see ... During his tenure as Governor, the former Texas Governor presided over a record ... 152 executions
- http://www.cnn.com/US/9802/03/tucker.pm/
February 3, 1998
Web posted at: 4:06 p.m. EST (2106 GMT)
HUNTSVILLE, Texas (CNN) -- Condemned killer Karla Faye Tucker, who may have less than an hour to live, was denied a last-minute stay of execution by the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday.
Only intervention by (the former) Texas Governor now stands between Tucker and the distinction of becoming the first woman executed in Texas since 1863 and the first in the nation since 1984.
Tucker's attempts to spare her own life have been supported by some Christian groups. This week, Pope John Paul II appealed for mercy for her.
- http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/page1/97/12/15/women.html
Copyright 1997 Houston Chronicle
Televangelist Pat Robertson told 60 Minutes in a recent interview that Tucker has his support and that if (the former) Texas Governor "lets this sweet woman of God die, he's a man who shows no mercy."
- http://www.cnn.com/US/9802/03/tucker.execution.2/
Texas executes Tucker
- http://64.239.13.64/free/ww3/042803_vatican.html
Concerns Raised by the Vatican
During his tenure as Governor, (the former) Texas Governor presided over a record setting 152 executions, including the 1998 execution of fellow born-again Christian Karla Faye Tucker, a convicted murderer who later led a prison ministry. Forty of Bush's executions were carried out in 2000, the year the (the former) Texas Governor presidential campaign was spotlighting their candidate's strong law enforcement record. The Washington Post's Richard Cohen reported in October 2000 that one of the execution chamber's "tie-down team" members, Fred Allen, had to prepare so many people for lethal injections during 2000, he quit his job in disgust.
(the former) Texas Governor mocked Tucker's appeal for clemency. In an interview with Talk magazine, Bush imitated Tucker's appeal for him to spare her life - pursing his lips, squinting his eyes, and in a squeaky voice saying, "Please don't kill me." That went too far for former GOP presidential candidate Gary Bauer, himself an evangelical Christian. "I think it is nothing short of unbelievable that the governor of a major state running for president thought it was acceptable to mock a woman he decided to put to death," said Bauer.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/23/2003 8:22:05 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 6:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Now!
I have no difficulty believing that (the former) Texas Governor is a Christian. I think his faith is genuine. I have to just forgive him for all those deaths the State of Texas carried out under his watch.
I do the same for John Calvin.
Obviously (the former) Texas Governor thought that was his job, and what he should do. I disagree, and think it was wrong.
But that's the end of it.
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/21/2003 11:37:15 PM
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/23/2003 8:23:00 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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a2rutled
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 7/21/2003 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Could we get back to the topic at hand? Calvin is dead, and God's grace is amazing; even life changing. If you don't agree with Clavin then that is your choice (likewise for those who agree). However, it is of little consequence now, he has already met his maker. If we are to focus on something, let us focus on our own weaknessess, which are many and great. Let us do this in order to magnify God's greatness, giving thanks to Him who has saved us and forgiven us; we who are the wicked and undeserving. Who has deserved what God has offered? Certainly not Clavin, certainly not you nor I. If you want to discuss Calvin's righteousness, please start another post. However, if you want to discuss Calvin's interpretaions of Scripture, that could be interesting, although it would still leave my last post unanswered...I'd like to hear from you Greg Boyd, to hear your thoughts...thank you...
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/22/2003 1:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman,
Would you still like to discuss my ‘differing views’ of Open Theism and Determination with me? And what I meant by making all our decisions by "principles", which is, that decision-making proceeds from them. However, I do not disagree or possibly agree with the principles of the Open View, not knowing all of them, remember that I am also on the fence of this subject, sitting. That is to say, I am not here to attack sincerely held believes, only to explore my own beside them. So,
1) Principles guide our decision-making
2) Circumstance and consequence are out of our total control
PotOnWheel said, "But I wonder whether he (Tim) is saying that God is in control, and also has fit two things into creation:
Room for things to grow in their own right…and a "natural" place for the Creator within (and around and throughout) everything…"
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 7/22/2003 6:30 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp writes:
quote:
Anyone who has seriously and thoroughly considered the issue from Scripture, Reason, & Experience has to concede that our power of choice is indeed VERY limited.
So would it be accurate to say that among Open Theists the position:
"We are not as free as we think we are"
is less common than the position:
"We are not as free as you think we think we are"?
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/22/2003 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tim,quote:
Would you still like to discuss my ‘differing views’ of Open Theism and Determination with me ...
1) Principles guide our decision-making
2) Circumstance and consequence are out of our total control
As I said, Tim, I'm not much of a thinker, and I can't hold a conversation philosophically, which is what it looks as if we'd be doing in view of items 1 and 2 above. I'd pretty much be flopping around like a fish out of water if we converse this route. 
However, I'm more than glad to discuss the Open View with you if you'll keep it simple for me. 
But in the meantime, it's lunchtime, and leftover pizza!
Starkman
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/22/2003 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | PoW: You say Calvin was simply practicing capital punishment, and that in this respect he is no different from G.W. Bush.
However, your argument has consistently failed to note or has simply denied the fact that there is a huge difference between putting murderers to death and putting heretics to death. As far as I am aware, murder is biblically defined as capital crime.
Another aspect in which your argument fails is that is fails to recognize the crucial importance of separation of (true) church and state. I realize Luther, Zwingli, Calvin the Catholics and the Orthodox (for lack of a better word, the institutional church) since the unification of church and state, has seen no problem in burning heretics at the stake. My how power corrupts. Jesus said his kingdom was NOT of this world, which would include the political system. As soon as professing Christians got their hands on political power, they began persecuting those who didn't see it exactly like they should have.
In my opinion, it is truly a shame that Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, the Catholics and the Orthodox are viewed as somehow justified in burning their enemies at the stake. This is diametrically opposed to true Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ. This really SHOULD go without saying.
P.S. I am done speaking about this subject.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/22/2003 12:22:34 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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a2rutled
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 7/22/2003 7:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Tim, I am interested to hear what you have to say, but I'm not sure I understand. When you say that "decision making proceeds from them (principles)" I am lost as to what exactly *principles* are. Are they general governing concepts that are fixed in the mind of God and upon which all other things are contingent (you had mentioned something about the primacy of God as the first cause of all things a few posts back). I'd love it if you would elucidate on what you mean.
Sincerely...
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/22/2003 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So would it be accurate to say that among Open Theists the position:
"We are not as free as we think we are"
is less common than the position:
"We are not as free as you think we think we are"?
Hi Chris,
Maybe it was meant as a joke, but I really don't know what to make of your question. Sorry.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
John Earp wrote:
quote:
Maybe it was meant as a joke, but I really don't know what to make of your question.
It's just a question, not a joke. Something intended to elicit an answer, preferrably one of the form "Yes, because . . ." or of the form "No, because . . ." If there are particular words or combinations of words in my question whose intended meanings you don't understand, please let me know, and I'll attempt to clarify.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp, who is "done speaking about this subject":
quote:
PoW: You say Calvin was simply practicing capital punishment, and that in this respect he is no different from G.W. Bush.
However, your argument has consistently failed to note or has simply denied the fact that there is a huge difference between putting murderers to death and putting heretics to death. As far as I am aware, murder is biblically defined as capital crime.
Another aspect in which your argument fails is that is fails to recognize the crucial importance of separation of (true) church and state. I realize Luther, Zwingli, Calvin the Catholics and the Orthodox (for lack of a better word, the institutional church) since the unification of church and state, has seen no problem in burning heretics at the stake. My how power corrupts. Jesus said his kingdom was NOT of this world, which would include the political system. As soon as professing Christians got their hands on political power, they began persecuting those who didn't see it exactly like they should have.
In my opinion, it is truly a shame that Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, the Catholics and the Orthodox are viewed as somehow justified in burning their enemies at the stake. This is diametrically opposed to true Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ. This really SHOULD go without saying.
John, there are lots of capital crimes. In our lifetime the Rosenbergs were executed for treason. (Let me remind you at the top, that I am against capital punishment!) So the case of S. is more specifically analogous to that. I think that we should try to be a bit understanding, and realize that things like religion contributed to other things, like the thirty years war. (Which, again, does NOT make me change my stance on captial punishment.) And during this presnt conflict I was reading a book by an English historian on Byzantium (same title), and found catharsis in the fact that the world has always been this bad, and chaotic -- the conclusion I draw from reading one-thousand years of history of one region. What is seen is clear differences of right and wrong where some ogvernments are just in supporting those who live on the land, while other governments cater to "the powerful" (a contemporary Byzantine term) who exploited everyone and snatched ownership away from tribes and families. But other things are less clear. They make you weep. Why can it be that a just government that also happens to be weak will, in time, be attacked from neighbors on either side? The safety of my post-WWII life pales against the threats nations and civilizations can face.
I do not too quickly judge the government that condemned Sever... I don't walk in their shoes.
Were he condemned as a petty feud where two men both wanted a throne, or a woman... then matters would be simple. But in the dangerous times of old, I'm not quick to be sure.
BUT I WILL JOIN YOU IN SAYING THAT IT FALLS SHORT!
One more, clean-up note. A picky one. (Are we OK so far?) You mentioned--perhaps only comparitively--that "fails to recognize the crucial importance of separation of (true) church and state." I can, and must, extrapolate on that a bit. As someone who is against captital punishment on Biblical grounds I want to point out that: The government is PLAYING CHURCH when it limits the free will of a human for repenting and getting right with God in the future. I join Charles Colson in this view.
Just an interesting note.
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The government is PLAYING CHURCH when it limits the free will of a human for repenting and getting right with God in the future.
"The real question is whether a murderer is more likely to repent and make a good end three weeks hence in the execution shed or, say, thirty years later in the prison infirmary. No mortal can know."
--C.S. Lewis
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pelajus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:43 AM (GMT -6) | | There is a difference between Gov. Bush signing the death warrants against convicted murderers, and Gov. Bush plotting the murder of a person that he hated. All the difference in the world. After all, if one hates and plans murder, he is a murderer. If one is carrying out the sentence of the state, he is, as the Bible puts it, ‘the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.’ (Rom. 13:4)
Dan Corner, in an excellent article entitled “His Ashes Cry Out,” documents how John Calvin, rather than occupying the role of God’s minister for justice, descended into the personal sin of hatred, plotting and carrying out the murder of Michael Servetus.
Here is a snippet from his article:
quote:
On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies! Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
You can find the rest of this article at:
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm
Bro. Pelajus | | Back to Top | | |
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Nessie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Dan Corner, in an excellent article entitled “His Ashes Cry Out,” documents how John Calvin, rather than occupying the role of God’s minister for justice, descended into the personal sin of hatred, plotting and carrying out the murder of Michael Servetus.
Here is a snippet from his article:
quote:
On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies! Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
You can find the rest of this article at:
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm
That's the P of TULIP, isn't it? The Persecution of the Saints.
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