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BillZeeBub
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:48 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
That's the P of TULIP, isn't it? The Persecution of the Saints.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/22/2003 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
pelajus
There is a difference between Gov. Bush signing the death warrants against convicted murderers, and Gov. Bush plotting the murder of a person that he hated. All the difference in the world. After all, if one hates and plans murder, he is a murderer. If one is carrying out the sentence of the state, he is, as the Bible puts it, ‘the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.’ (Rom. 13:4)
Dan Corner, in an excellent article entitled “His Ashes Cry Out,” documents how John Calvin, rather than occupying the role of God’s minister for justice, descended into the personal sin of hatred, plotting and carrying out the murder of Michael Servetus.
Well, there surely are strong views on something so un-tame. But there are also many other views.
I agree that this was unChristian. But this still ignores both the conventions of that civilization and the internal dangers it face -- with dire consequences.
pelajus, thanks for quoting this. In past months ther have been many others too, from a variety of thesis. What you put up for our eyes here does not seem to reflect the very real danger that man posed. And so, while I believe the quote on Calvin's determination to be accurate, I think that quote shades the truth of why Calvin said that, and leads you to conclude what you did -- that it was a personal hate (as if S. had beaten up Calvin or something).
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/22/2003 1:57:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/22/2003 9:07 AM (GMT -6) | | That article is preposterous. I'm no Calvinist, and I won't dispute the historicity of Severtus' murder, but the author of this piece goes on to make the outlandish claim that since Calvin was allegedly a murderer, then he is unsaved.
Now if that's not close to blatantly pompous heresy, I don't know what is...
GOD condemns, not small men with a vicious agenda against Calvinism.
BTW, isn't this topic on OV and God's determination of certain future events?
Maybe it's time to shut this one down...
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/22/2003 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Great quote: "The real question is whether a murderer is more likely to repent and make a good end three weeks hence in the execution shed or, say, thirty years later in the prison infirmary. No mortal can know."
--C.S. Lewis
Would it suffice to say that according to open theism, it would read "God and no mortal know." Why did Lewis not include God not knowing? I suppose he was not an open theist eh? Anyone read Nicky Cruz's biography? Good stuff about changed lives! My favorite though is that thief on the cross. No minute is too late to repent and be saved!
Hey BW, great words! It amazes me that people take internet junk as authoritative. So much of what is published on the net is opinion, speculation, or misinformation. On the same hand, much of it is good opinion, correct speculation, or true information. But I'd agree with you on this one that the article is preposterious. John Earp who posts in here said the same thing about Calvin being unsaved, not a brother, yada, yada. Did you read it?
I am not Calvinist either though I've been accused of it in here as if it were the greatest crime of the century! Give me the choice though and I'd chose Calvinism over open theism in a heartbeat. However, I am currently neither.
BTW, good phrase about "small men with a vicious agenda against Calvinism." Couldn't have said it any better.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/22/2003 10:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Fleetwood, you wrote: "Would it suffice to say that according to open theism, it would read "God and no mortal know." Why did Lewis not include God not knowing? I suppose he was not an open theist eh?"
Lewis would NOT be OV. Neither was he a reactionary against it--which preoduces a third breed. (And reactions to the third bread spawn a fourth breed.) Lewis was naturally intuitive. | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 7/22/2003 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lewis would NOT be OV. Neither was he a reactionary against it
Wouldn't being reactionary against Open Theism have required, pardon the expression, foreknowledge on his part? Still, it's rather amazing that an idea that was allegedly neither formed nor created but that is simply what Scripture reveals never seems to have occurred to him.
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/22/2003 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | When I discovered that my math teacher abused his children, I no longer believed that 2+2=4. Same logic being used to judge the truths of Calvinism.
Chris Grant, particularly amazing considering the depth of knowledge of C.S. Lewis. Hard to believe that he didn't grasp what open theists now suddenly in the past few years have grasped.
Edited by - Fleetwood on 07/22/2003 4:11:01 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/22/2003 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Lewis would NOT be OV. Neither was he a reactionary against it
Wouldn't being reactionary against Open Theism have required, pardon the expression, foreknowledge on his part? Still, it's rather amazing that an idea that was allegedly neither formed nor created but that is simply what Scripture reveals never seems to have occurred to him.
No, that would have to wait for the "Fundamentalist Hermaneutic" -- which says that all peoples, in all times, and in all places, think about language in the same way that people do in Peoria and Wheaton, Illinois.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/22/2003 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That article is preposterous. I'm no Calvinist, and I won't dispute the historicity of Severtus' murder, but the author of this piece goes on to make the outlandish claim that since Calvin was allegedly a murderer, then he is unsaved.
Corner is simply quoting Scripture not taking judgment into his own hands:
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/22/2003 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | So again, Moses and David were murderers. Are they too unsaved? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/22/2003 3:49 PM (GMT -6) | | ReasonableDoubt trots out the "everyone else is doing it" argument.
quote:
So again, Moses and David were murderers. Are they too unsaved?
Where in Calvin's Institutes can I read about his repentence?
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/22/2003 4:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh good grief Laika. Must you always be slammin' RD? Answer the question for Pete's sake! Are David and Moses unsaved? Rahab? Sarah? Abraham? I don't read of Sarah repenting of manipulating Abraham to sleep with another woman. I don't read of Abraham repenting of his lies or of his agreeing to sleep with another woman. Or is adultery a lesser sin than murder? How bout Jonah? Noah? Did he repent of getting drunk? Speaking of David. He repented of murder and adultery but did he ever repent of spoiling his sons? Speaking of David, did Bathsheba repent? I read NO record whatsoever of her repentance. Does this thus mean she did not repent? Or does the Bible not record it? If she did not repent, did David marry an unbeliever, or was she in actuality a (gasp!) sinner!! If David married an unbeliever, then he AGAIN sinned.
Basically what is being said is that because Calvin "sinned" (which some would disagree that the killing was sin considering the times and the basis of capital punishment and the fact that being a heretic then was legally grounds for death), his doctrine is invalid. This is what I am hearing here.
Earp, you never hated a brother, eh? I find that hard to believe. When you use that Scripture passage, you speak as if it does not apply to you. Does it apply to you or have you not hated? Is it that this verse in actuality is pointing to our need for Christ considering Christ is the atonement of our sins. Yes, all hate and murder alre sin; thus, our need for Christ and salvation, freely offered to all sinners.
"There is none righteous..."
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/22/2003 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey a2rutled,
In the general sense, the cause, source or origin of any thing; that from which a thing proceeds; is a Principle.
A being that produces any thing is said to be the operative cause.
Which is to say, "The soul of man is an active Principle".
Therefore, that which is believed, whether truth or not, but serves as a rule of action, is a Principle: guiding our decision-making.
Principles are that which exercise a direct influence on my life and behavior, which is my willing, believing, and intending that I govern myself by.
"Are they general governing concepts that are fixed in the mind of God and upon which all other things are contingent (you had mentioned something about the primacy of God as the first cause of all things a few posts back)"?
Like your question, it shows keen insight and thoughtfulness:
God is that, from which man proceeds, God is an active principle (the prime one) and man is created in that image, as an active principle (a secondary singularity). If this is not true; then I am not responsible for my own actions, God is, and Christ died for nothing . . .
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/22/2003 5:16 PM (GMT -6) | | For a group that claims how much Calvinists are judgmental - it's like the pot calling the kettle black! For God's sake- all the Calvinist sympathizers here have acknowledged that Calvin was a sinner, and was wrong. What are we supposed to do now, wear sackcloth and ashes??
However, again, no one has shown how the fact that Calvin was a sinner (unrepentant or repentant...we do not and CAN not know)- negates his theology!
Are you prepared to say that Einstein's theories were bunk b/c of the fact that he was not a Christian? You must, if you're going to hold the same standard, by saying John Calvin himself was not a Christian, therefore, all of his theology was bunk.
If you can't see the fallacy in this reasoning, then I give up.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 7/22/2003 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Are you prepared to say that Einstein's theories were bunk b/c of the fact that he was not a Christian?
Einstein's theories would be bunk if he weren't a mathematician.
my 2c
-S
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a2rutled
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 7/22/2003 6:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Tim,
Interesting stuff, I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions and add a couple comments:
"A being that produces any thing is said to be the operative cause.
Which is to say, "The soul of man is an active Principle"."
Are operative causes and active principles equivalent? If so, how does man (as an operative cause) differ from God as an operative cause? How does finitude come in to the equation? Or am I missing the point?
"God is that, from which man proceeds, God is an active principle (the prime one) and man is created in that image, as an active principle (a secondary singularity). If this is not true; then I am not responsible for my own actions, God is, and Christ died for nothing . . ."
I agree (so far as I am able to understand you). I would only ask for you to clarify one thing: perhaps expound on the causal power of the seconday singularity. Are we talking about compatibilism here, or libertarianism, or something more vague? Does God's will, as the prime active principle, overarch and encompass my capacity to will. And in this view, what are the criteria for responsibility?
Thanks for listening
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Corner is simply quoting Scripture not taking judgment into his own hands:
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Applying this scripture to John Calvin appears to put him (i.e., Calvin) in company with about 99.9997% of mankind, including those who hate Calvin and those who hate George W. Bush.
Edited by - Chris Grant on 07/23/2003 09:46:33 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/23/2003 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Yep. Ya gotta love shoddy (or in this case, nonexistent) exegesis as a basis for condemnation.
"Well, uh, mah Bible sez, uh, that murderers BURN!!! But especially ones that I diagree with theologically... Repentance? The absence of evidence of said repentance is enough in this court!!! Damn him up good, gracious Lord..."
Please...
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/23/2003 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Corner is simply quoting Scripture not taking judgment into his own hands:
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Applying this scripture to John Calvin appears to put him (i.e., Calvin) in company with about 99.9997% of mankind, including those who hate Calvin and those who hate George W. Bush.
Edited by - Chris Grant on 07/23/2003 09:46:33 AM
Okay, let's throw this one out.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/23/2003 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So again, Moses and David were murderers. Are they too unsaved?
We have solid evidence (the Scriptures) that reveals that Moses and David repented. We have none concerning Calvin with regard to how he treated Servetus.
Of all groups of Christians, the ones who have emphasized free will have been the ones who most generally have had their free will taken away (by execution or suppression) by those who deny they have a free will.
Edited by - John Earp on 07/23/2003 11:41:06 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank God I ain't no sinner like the rest of mankind! Oh, oops, that was the Pharisees that said that sort of thing, right?
Hey John, I'm waiting for you to address those several names mentioned elsewhere of men and women whose repentence is not known (Bathsheba, Samson, Rahab, yada yada). According to your criteria of Calvin's damned soul, there's a he** of alot of Bible heros down there roasting with him.
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. (No, not me!)
Anyone who says "You fool!" will be in danger of the fire of hell. (You fool John Calvin!)
Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
BUT YOU WERE WASHED, YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, YOU WERE JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD (except you John Calvin, you monster!)
Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
--THE BIBLE
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/23/2003 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Is it ever helpful to judge someone's heart in regards to their salvation when debating theology? Doesn't that just undermine one's credibility if you set out to prove someone isn't saved because they don't agree with you? We will never know if Calvin repented, nor will I know if my neighbor repented...It's not up to me to judge. I would just like to throw in that not all OV's would approach it this way.
Shell
Edited by - shell on 07/23/2003 5:01:01 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/23/2003 1:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | Shell - I'm glad to hear it! And I 100% agree with you! :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:12 PM (GMT -6) | | That makes two agreements.
Had a thought today about this dialogue regarding the validity of Calvin's Christianity. D. Bonehoeffer was part of an attempt to assasinate Hitler. The attempt failed. Don't think he "repented" though. Would you say he also is unsaved?
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