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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Fleetwood,
As I have already said, the people who sinned egregiously in the Bible repented of their public sins, and so were forgiven. The point is that Calvin never publicly repented of this very public act. Of course murderers can repent and be ultimately saved.
I also don't hate Calvin, nor have I ever called him a fool. I simply have tried to show that he was definitely not the kind of person you would want as a pastor, theologian or spiritual leader.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earp, Not all the Bible men and women of faith publically repented. I am not sure why you state that they have. It is simply not true.
Your statment that Calvin was not the kind of person you would want as a pastor, theologian or spiritual leader is a matter of your opinion. Keep that in mind. Opinion.
I will ask you again... Bonhoeffer??
John, you did not adequately address my comments. I expect that since you challenge others to adequately address your comments (over in the Pelagus topic where you challenge Paul to do this), you would only want to do the same.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John Earp, Not all the Bible men and women of faith publically repented. I am not sure why you state that they have. It is simply not true.
Even if your attempt to disprove a negative were true, it would not make a difference with regard to Calvin, who all the rest of his days did nothing but defend his actions towards Servetus as just.
quote:
Your statment that Calvin was not the kind of person you would want as a pastor, theologian or spiritual leader is a matter of your opinion. Keep that in mind. Opinion.
It is opinion based on Scripture: 1 Tim. 3. "A bishop must be blameless...not violent, etc."
quote:
I will ask you again... Bonhoeffer??
I have argued elsewhere that Bonhoeffer's act was in fact one of justifiable homicide, that to NOT act against Hitler, if the opportunity arose, when Bonhoeffer did would have been in fact criminal. Hitler of all people deserved to die, millions of times over, and to have assasinated him would have in fact been the most righteous thing possible, given the circumstances. Bonhoeffer's act, when compared to Calvin's, is comparing apples and oranges, as Hitler was in absolute dictatorial political power (not unlike Calvin was in Geneva), while Bonhoeffer was simply doing what was right to stop a genocidal maniac, and Servetus was not trying to kill anyone -- he was a pioneering surgeon whose work is still noted today in discovering the modality of cardiopulmonary system. Yes, he had some unscriptural beliefs, but for this he did not deserve death.
Not only would it have been self-defense to kill Hitler, it would have been defending the lives of millions of innocents to take Hitler's life.
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | What's with this apples/oranges thing? Didn't Albert say the same thing over in the Pelajus topic?????
It is known that Servetus was much like Hitler. No, he did not physically kill BUT he spiritually killed people through the teaching of heresy, which was during that time, a CRIME punishable by death- legal. Which is worse? Killing the body or killing the soul by a false teaching? I would say they are both something I never want to be guilty of; however, when Servetus was put to death, it was because he was killing people based on the fact that he was a heretic leading people astray.
It is interesting that you say the killing of Hitler is justifiable homicide. Bonhoeffer lived after the time of Christ, and according to Jesus Christ, there is no such a thing as a "justifiable homicide" even if the person is an evil person. All murder is murder. Or is it not? I agree that Hitler "deserved" to die, but then many people, esp. those living in Geneva during the time of Calvin, would say that Servetus "deserved" to die.
It is really odd to me that you seem to know that Calvin rejoiced in Servetus' death the rest of his days. I believe that you have had some "tainted" teaching in your past perhaps? I may stand alone when I say this, but I do not agree with you that Calvin was as you portray him to be. And let it be known that I am not a Calvinist; however, there are conflicting stories about Calvin. Just as there are conflicting stories about Martin Luther King Jr., Kennedy, and others.
Can we say with accuracy that Kennedy had an affair with Marilyn Monroe? Some would say definitely. Others cry "foul play." How are you and I to know for sure who is correct? I was not a friend or family member of Kennedy's. Even if I were, I might not know the truth. Couldn't we say that in some matters, ONLY God knows the truth?
Which brings to mind certain criminals who've been wrongly convicted for crimes they did not commit yet were locked up with guilty written on their forheads.
You seem convinced that Calvin is a heinous murderer. I am not so convinced and I have read far too much to indicate otherwise. I also would not describe him as being a violent man.
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Some facts taken from other materials. And I quote...
"The Council of Geneva, after receiving the advice of churches in four other Swiss cities, convicted Servetus of antitrinitarianism and opposition to child baptism. Calvin asked that Servetus be mercifully beheaded. The Council insisted he should be burned at the stake. "
"Nearly all copies of Servetus' magnum opus, Christianismi Restitutio, were destroyed by the authorities. Only three have survived. Its peculiar, unorthodox trinitarian theology, which made Servetus a hunted man in nearly every country in Western Europe, cannot be summarized simply."
"It is one of the ironies of history that all the modern Unitarian churches and movements hold the memory of Michael Servetus in special honour—for every one of them developed historically from the Reformed tradition of John Calvin."
"The idea that diverse religious views might be tolerated in the same political area made little headway in the sixteenth century."
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | From another source. I QUOTE...
The proper function of government, which may be inferred from this passage [Rom 13], is to punish evil and reward good. At this basic level, then, governments are not only permitted to pursue justice and punish evildoers, but they are required by God to do so.
What about the use of military power that might result in death and devastation? John Calvin, in his essay "On Civil Government" points out that there are many methods which, if used individually, would be wrong (like "Thou shalt not murder"). But governments are judged by a different standard. He states:
"If [government leaders] remember that they are the viceregents of God, it behooves them to watch with all care, earnestness, and diligence, that in their administration they may exhibit to men an image, as it were, of the providence, care, goodness, benevolence, and justice of God. For the minds of many lose their regard for equity and justice unless virtue be rewarded with due honor; nor can the violence of the wicked be restrained unless crimes are followed by severe punishments."
Taken from John Calvin, "On Civil Government," in On God and Political Duty, a collection of essays edited by John T. McNeill, p. 50.
While it would be wrong for me to personally take up arms and go after people I suspect of being terrorists, it is appropriate that government do so. In fact, to NOT do so would be an offense to God — it would allow injustice to reign. As injustice is tolerated, good people become more apathetic and evil people become more bold.
MY OWN WORDS-- I believe that this need be kept in mind when discussing Calvin. Servetus was wanted in many countries for his crime of heresy. The GOVERNMENT of Geneva, of which Calvin was in charge, put Servetus to death, similar to the way our govt has recently put Sadam's sons to death. Similar to the way Bonhoeffer sought to put Hitler to death.
The difference is the crime. Servetus' crime of heresy is no longer a crime today, not in America that is. But AT THAT TIME, it was a crime and the decision to execute him was not soley Calvin's. As a governing official, Calvin did what he did based on the laws.
This is not to say right or wrong, but to give some FAIR historical background on a man who is accused of being unsaved, violent, and other unfair things.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/23/2003 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | The following book, _The Right to Heresy, Or, How Calvin Killed a Conscience_ grimly chronicles the reformer's crimes against many who differed from him merely on doctrine/theology.
http://gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_toc.htm
Edited by - John Earp on 07/24/2003 12:09:09 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2003 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How Calvin Killed a Conscience
Calvinism is EVERYTHING about Conscience. Meaning, it is a cenerpiece of Calvinistm.
www.kuyper.org/stone/lecture3.html
(Calvinism and Politics)
Do a keyword search on that site for "conscience."
Also, note not only Kuypers criticism of many of the aspects in Calvinism's eary behaviors, but also his accessment that Calvinism needs judging on the basis of the CHANGES it brought into its historical setting, and not which things prooved slow to change...but which it did eventually change. Good accessment. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/24/2003 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey there again, a2rutled,
The Etymology of Principle: Middle English, modification of Middle French principe, from Latin principium beginning, from princip-, princeps initiator
Principle is the beginning initiator, which of course, is God, (always) and man is the secondary initiator or the co-author of events and finitude or having limitation is in the equation. Causes are indeed Principle and how man differs, as a cause, is only limited by God’s cause; you get the point.
A Principle is also considered a fundamental truth; a comprehensive law or doctrine, from which others are derived, or on which others are founded; a general truth; an elementary proposition; a maxim; an axiom; a postulate.
Full individual freedom of thought, expression, and action was never God’s intent for man from the beginning; neither was it that every choice of man would necessarily result out of a sequence of causes, therefore, I would never find them compatible. And yes, my thoughts are not clearly expressed by any system of philosophy that I know of, except that a person is rational.
The criteria for responsibility is having been given the ‘ability to respond’ to our circumstance and to create consequence, a gift we are held accountable for, by and from God.
My capacity to will is more involved by and with the will of God, than besieged by it, when relating my power to cause; His purpose expresses itself naturally through circumstance and consequence (sow/reap) and super-naturally, wow  .
Reason is to say or speak; rhetoric; that which is thought or which is alleged in words, as the ground or cause of opinion, conclusion or determination. However, the Latin rationalis, is the explanation of the principles of opinion, action, hypothesis, phenomenon, or the like; also, the principles themselves (rational).
That is to say, because someone reaches the age of reason, that does not make them a rational person. A rational person surrenders the willing, believing, and intending of their own inclinations, and receives God’s plan and purpose for their life.
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/24/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey everybody,
In recognition of the limitations of my knowledge (not as a result of my acquaintance with John Calvin) and of the tentative nature of my probable beliefs and opinions of him; such ought to lead me to a tolerance of those people holding beliefs different from mine. Instead of attacking the beliefs of others, about Calvin, I should strive to find better grounds for my own. And when I encounter conflicting testimonies, e.g. historians, I can only weigh all sides and form a belief, conjecture, guess, doubt, or disbelief, as the case seems to warrant. Hey, I think Calvin is an Open Theist and my dad is uglier than yours is, just look at me for proof is . . . in seeing.
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/25/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1991&whichpage=5
quote:
[QUOTE]DLW: Now, I was born with a hole in my heart. It likely may have been part of God's greater plan for me to be born with such a defect. However, given the current prevalence of abortions in our world, it seems that one could say that such abortions apparently are also part of God's will.
This belongs on the other threads. Someone's going to respond to this one!!!
PoW: "So, you are saying that God is the cause of sin. (YOU SUPER-CALVINIST YOU!!!) You are saying that since people kill millions of human persons it must be OK with God now. That makes war good. Infantacide in Baal worship God-ordained... [quote] | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/28/2003 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, I am determined . . . take that either way you want it 
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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