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Crosswind
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 7/21/2003 1:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | [font=Verdana][/Since we, Open Theists, heavily rely on the Old Testament Scriptures in believing what we believe about God, I wonder, do the Jews (contemporary Jews) have the same concept of God like we have? it's my opinion that since they are the Old Testament people of God, somehow they have the correct understanding of God since it was to their godly forefathers that God revealed himself. Dont you think that somehow the true concept of God was handed down to them by their forefathers? Any thoughts on this?
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:24 AM (GMT -6) | | (crosswind, notice that the second code of yours got split: [font=Verdana][/...text...font=Verdana])
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:51 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't know anything. So maybe the second response will be better than this...
First, you had the interestring idea: "Dont you think that somehow the true concept of God was handed down to them by their forefathers?" Aside from the obvious fact that if they didn't catch the central thrust of ALL fo scripture, which was revealed in Christ Jesus... lets assume that perhaps there is something to what you are saying.
Second, I'll add something I've read: That the Greek speaking Church transformed their host culture to make a better fit with the Hebrew understanding of God. Such key doctrinal words aa hypostasis express the personal reality of God much better than the common Greek expression prosopon (which can be thought of as "mask.") The "H" word was grabbed out of obscurity and used because the word presented such potential for being re-shaped. And with the linguistic creativity the truth that God is personal (and not a substance or impersonal energy). God is Personal, became man, sent His Spirit to abide with us, and loves us. An energy force or a mask could never do those. So, the truth of the God of the Hebrews is not just to be found among the blood relatives of Abraham.
Third, interestingly for the history of Western Europe, much of the classical knowledge that reached the lands of France, Spain and Germany arived from the West, coming across from Africa to Spain with the Moorish culture. And some of that Classical Greek heritiage that arrived with Jewish scholars. Part of their Judaism was influenced -- ironically -- by the same classical Greek heritage that the Christian Church in the East had successfully been transforming. But this form, while not as purely Greek as the original with Aristotle and Plato were, WAS more aligned with pagan Greek. And with it came a way of looking at the Book that was more akin to Islam than it was to the faith of the Old Testement.
Those three things come to mind: (1) Contemporary Judaism is not the faith of Abraham. Paul's letter to the Galatians comes to mind. (2) The Christian Church and the New Testement, while embracing the Greek language as a means to propogate the Gospel, did, under the leading of the Holy Spirit trandsform the culture around it, without being "squeezed into its mold" (in J.B. Philips phrase). (3) Western Judaism is not pure Judaism anyways. It has some Greek philosphy and Islamic framework mixed in. (I think some other strains fo Judaism would agree; however, they have other forms of eastern mystacism mixed in.)
Hope that helps.
(And maybe the next respondant will know more.)
A picture by the Jewish artist, Marc Chagall: "Abraham and the Three Angels"
" Abraham se hâta auprès de la tente de Sara et dit :" Prends vite trois boisseaux de farine, pétris et fais des galettes". Puis Abraham (...) prit du caillé, du lait, le veau qu'il avait apprêté et plaça le tout devant eux; il se tenait debout près d'eux, sous l'arbre, et ils mangèrent."
(Genèse, XVIII, 6-8)
BUT LETS NOT DAMPEN THE QUESTION YOU ASK. IT IS A GOOD ONE. AND PERHAPS SOME WONDERFUL FRUIT WILL COME OF IT.
HERE IS CHAGALL'S "CREATION OF THE WORLD" PICTURE:
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | The image of the Trinity in the meeting of Abram and Sarai with the three messengers has been a part of Christian tradition since Andrea Rublev painted his Trinity icon. Chagall's above is interesting.
BUT....
See how the two figures effecting creation (for the Father) make the Word and the Spirit to be well represented in this European Jewish artist's lithograph? The "Word" and the "Spirit" are active players in the narrative of the OT long before their personal nature becomes unfolded within cultural forma and linguistic tools at the Prophet's disposal. (Ezekiel lays most of it out; but the Essenes layed some groundwork for the ideas that the Gospel of John then transformed.)
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Asking this like a Calvinist, but:
What do you suppose Chagall's "Sarah Blue" tells us about our NEED. And what does that, then, tell us about the hope we can have in God?
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Well since there are many varieties of Judaism, I suppose you could find different answers. But from what I have learned, Judaism believes that God knows the future, but is not responsible for events, humans are....
"God, however, is above time. He can see the entire Master Plan, everything at once - birth, death, and everything in between. This is why the Talmud says: "Everything is foreseen, yet freedom is given to choose." (Pirkei Avot 3:19)
But don't be dismayed if you don't understand how this is all possible. The fact that God can know the future, and yet we still maintain free will at every moment, is one of the great to philosophical and theological mysteries of mankind. The true answer of how this works, as Maimonides writes, is unknowable to the human mind. As long as we live in the physical world bound by the limits of time, simply do not possess the tools to understand this paradox. "
from http://judaism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.aish.com | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Alternatively, one can say that OVT merely transfers the mystery as the decision to create in the face of uncertainties always relies on mystery.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/21/2003 5:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Those pictures surely answered his questions...
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/21/2003 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I have found the following site: http://jewfaq.org/index.htm to be a good basic resource for general information about Judaism. According to the author of this site, they do subscribe to the same view of omniscience that traditional Christianity does. Funny thing is, I recall a few years ago reading a quote by Ariel Sharon with regard to the Palestinians, to the effect of: "God has regretted creating the Palestinians ever since He created them."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/21/2003 8:28:18 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | They've never been that big into the whole consistency thing!
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/21/2003 3:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
fred
I don't know anything. So maybe the second response will be better than this... And maybe the next respondant will know more.)
This bunch here is a great team! | | Back to Top | | |
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