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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/16/2003 8:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | John,
Actually, I don't have any designs on making everyone agree with me. However, Pelajus stated, quote:
Hmmm. What was the name of my article, again?
[checking....checking...]
"Proginosko: A Word Study."
Oh, that might be why I didn't go into other Greek words.
when he, in fact, did use other words. I pointed out that discrepency and now you are accusing me of, quote:
Your comments, as usual, seem to represent a bias you have against anyone who doesn't agree with you, to the point that you impute motives to them. Doesn't sound like you are really interested in considering anyone's opinions but your own.
Pelajus made a false statement that I called everyone's attention to and I'm the "bad guy"? A false statement is NOT an opinion.
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John Earp
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| Posted 7/16/2003 8:29 PM (GMT -6) | | It was not a false statement, based on Strong's, which Pelajus cites at the beginning of his article. In any case, this apparent discrepancy only involves a form of the word, not an entirely different word, correct? Apparently these words are so close in meaning that Strong's combines them.
When you said Pel was not interested in the truth you are NOT imputing motives and condemning his character? Okay.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/17/2003 01:34:17 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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pelajus
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Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/17/2003 12:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Albert wrote:
quote:
It's the same verb, just conjugated differently. The meaning is the same. So Pelagus was 100% correct. There are only five occasions when the verb proginosko is used in the NT, and they are correctly listed by Pelagus (Acts 26:5, Rom. 8:29, Rom. 11:2, I Pet. 1:20 and II Pet. 3:17). His argument stands.
And THANK YOU, Albert!!!
John is correct in saying that I relied completely on James Strong’s Greek authority in choosing those five instances. It’s gratifying to know that Strong’s can still be trusted. :)
And now, Paul? :)
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Laika
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| Posted 7/17/2003 1:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul5388
quote:
Pelajus,
Maybe that was the problem, you should have considered all bases before you came to your conclusion. Tunnel vision has bad consequences when you are trying to see the big picture.
Says the man who hasn't read a single Open View book.
Pelajus, welcome. Any friend of John Earp is a...
a distant cousin to us.
Edited by - Laika on 07/17/2003 08:52:38 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/17/2003 3:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey there, Pelajus,
Hey, listen, I think you make some good points about the use of the word Proginosko, partucularly points about the simple manner of understanding the whole verse in regard to Proginosko, but even you would have to admit, wouldn't you, that tearing apart Greek requires one who's, well, pretty darned learned in Greek? It seems if it were this simple, there wouldn't have been the years and years of controversy about the five verses in question. It seems.
Otherwise, good stuff,
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 07/17/2003 08:43:55 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Newcomb
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Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/17/2003 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | What does the Word of God say about God repenting? The Hebrew nacham is translated as repent and related words in KJV such as repenteth, etc. and is used 112 times in the OT. Here are the verses where the word relates to God, either used toward him or about him. Note that one verse has the word twice, so of the 112 times it is used, it is applied to God 73 times, or about 70% of the time the word is used, it is used of God. Several times it is negative, that is “I repent not” but the vast majority of the time it is used positively, that is about God repenting or feeling sorry for what he did or anticipated to do.
1. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
3. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said , I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
6. Exd 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
8. Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
10. Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent : hath he said , and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
12. Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up , or left.
14. Jdg 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges , then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
17. 1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
19. 1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that
20. he should repent.
22. 1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
24. 2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
26. 1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
29. Psa 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
31. Psa 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
33. Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
35. Psa 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.
37. Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent , neither will I turn back from it.
39. Jer 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
41. Jer 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting .
43. Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
45. Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
46. Jer 20:16 And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
48. Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
50. Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
52. Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
55. Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
57. Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
59. Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
61. Joe 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent , and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
63. Amo 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.
65. Amo 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
67. Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent , and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
69. Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
71. Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
73. Zec 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
Newcomb
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John Earp
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| Posted 7/17/2003 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey there, Pelajus,
Hey, listen, I think you make some good points about the use of the word Proginosko, partucularly points about the simple manner of understanding the whole verse in regard to Proginosko, but even you would have to admit, wouldn't you, that tearing apart Greek requires one who's, well, pretty darned learned in Greek? It seems if it were this simple, there wouldn't have been the years and years of controversy about the five verses in question. It seems.
Otherwise, good stuff,
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 07/17/2003 08:43:55 AM
Hi Starkman,
While I understand where you're coming from on this, it seems to me that Pelajus is simply doing a "word study" by using hermeneutical tools commonly accepted in evangelicalism and fundamentalism. His argument seems to be primarily based upon an analysis of the context in which proginosko is used. It does not seem to me that one needs a Ph.D in Biblical Greek in order to observe the context and attempt to interpret what would be the most plausible meaning expressed in the verses in question.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/17/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
While I understand where you're coming from on this, it seems to me that Pelajus is simply doing a "word study" by using hermeneutical tools commonly accepted in evangelicalism and fundamentalism. His argument seems to be primarily based upon an analysis of the context in which proginosko is used. It does not seem to me that one needs a Ph.D in Biblical Greek in order to observe the context and attempt to interpret what would be the most plausible meaning expressed in the verses in question.
I should have been more clear, John. It was, in fact, the contextual information I appreciated in Pelajus's work; however, I was wondering what he thought about disecting Greek without a strong understanding of the language. How far, in other words, can one take a word study with low-level tools, such as Stongs, and with no Greek training before more is needed? I want to know where he stands in this regard, because once the context is addressed, eventually there's need for some explanation as to the simplicity of Pelajus's arguments: if it's THAT simple, why the controversy about those five particular verses? (I've seen it before where it sure looked straight and narrow, but, ah, the Greek wasn't quite in cooperation!)
Thanks much,
Starkman
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Starkman
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| Posted 7/17/2003 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Newcomb,
You're like that guy "Q" on the Star Trek DS-9 series, I believe it was. Pops in and out and usually disturbs everyone because no one can control him! (In your case, dude, it's a compliment!)
Starkman
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Paul5388
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Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/17/2003 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Albert,
Let me invite you to read p 342 of The Analytical Greek Lexicon where prognosis is included in the definitions for proginosko. Let me also call to your attention that there isn't a single definition in the above cited reference that is "chosen" or anything that even resembles it. Let me quote the reference for I Pet. 1.20, "in N.T., from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subjects of future privileges, Ro. 8.29; 11.2", so you won't have to exert too much energy.
Edited by - Paul5388 on 07/17/2003 6:03:18 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/17/2003 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Albert,
Let me invite you to read p 342 of The Analytical Greek Lexicon where prognosis is included in the definitions for proginosko. Let me also call to your attention that there isn't a single definition in the above cited reference that is "chosen" or anything that even resembles it. Let me quote the reference for I Pet. 1.20, "in N.T., from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subjects of future privileges, Ro. 8.29; 11.2", so you won't have to exert too much energy.
Hi Paul,
No one has said that prognosis (the noun) is addressed in Pelajus' article. In fact, it is not. What is discussed is the verb proginosko. Perhaps someone can do a word study and examination of the context of the uses of prognosis. Even if this were to support your understanding of prognosis, it does not seem that it would not negate the view of proginosko ably demonstrated by Pelajus.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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pelajus
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Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/17/2003 3:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Let me invite you to read p 342 of The Analytical Greek Lexicon where prognosis is included in the definitions for proginosko. Let me also call to your attention that there isn't a single definition in the above cited reference that is "chosen" or anything that even resembles it.
Ok, here you say that there is nothing that even resembles the concept of being chosen.
quote:
Let me quote the reference for I Pet. 1.20, "in N.T., from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subjects of future privileges, Ro. 8.29; 11.2", so you won't have to exert too much energy.
And yet the source that you say doesn't have anything that even resembles the concept of choosing something speaks about 'apointing' someone for future privileges. Sorry, but if I appoint someone to an office, aren't I choosing them?
Thank you for showing that the NIV is correct in putting it the way that it did. And talk about attempting to split hairs.
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Paul5388
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| Posted 7/17/2003 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
Come on, I showed you the definition was found under the heading of proginosko, what more do you want?quote:
appoint
\Ap*point"\ ([a^]p*point"), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Appointed; p. pr. & vb. n. Appointing.] [OE. appointen, apointen, OF. apointier to prepare, arrange, lean, place, F. appointer to give a salary, refer a cause, fr. LL. appunctare to bring back to the point, restore, to fix the point in a controversy, or the points in an agreement; L. ad + punctum a point. See Point.] 1. To fix with power or firmness; to establish; to mark out.
When he appointed the foundations of the earth. --Prov. viii. 29.
2. To fix by a decree, order, command, resolve, decision, or mutual agreement; to constitute; to ordain; to prescribe; to fix the time and place of.
Thy servants are ready to do whatsoever my lord the king shall appoint. --2 Sam. xv. 15.
He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness. --Acts xvii. 31.
Say that the emperor request a parley . . . and appoint the meeting. --Shak.
3. To assign, designate, or set apart by authority.
Aaron and his shall go in, and appoint them every one to his service. --Num. iv. 19.
These were cities appointed for all the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. --Josh. xx. 9.
4. To furnish in all points; to provide with everything necessary by way of equipment; to equip; to fit out.
The English, being well appointed, did so entertain them that their ships departed terribly torn. --Hayward.
5. To point at by way, or for the purpose, of censure or commendation; to arraign. [Obs.]
Appoint not heavenly disposition. --Milton.
6. (Law) To direct, designate, or limit; to make or direct a new disposition of, by virtue of a power contained in a conveyance; -- said of an estate already conveyed. --Burrill. Kent.
To appoint one's self, to resolve. [Obs.] --Crowley.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
We're not talking about choosing sides for a sandlot baseball game.
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John Earp
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| Posted 7/18/2003 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul,
Pelajus' article demonstrates that the NT usage of proginosko does not entail "foresight," but simply means "prior knowledge of," as in "I've known your pen name since you started posting here."
Prognosis (the noun) is another issue, which I would like to hear discussion on.
P.S. I don't even get your comment about sandlot games.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/18/2003 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | When doctors use the term "Prognosis", they're obviously referring to their comprehensive knowlege of the future.
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Paul5388
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Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/18/2003 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
Sandlot games are made up by "choosing" who will be on which side. You probably noticed that "appoint" is NOT the same as "choose". "Choose" carries the implication of selecting from numerous choices, whereas "appoint" is an offical decree.
Laika,
What do "doctors" have to do with anything? Their "prognosis" is more in the area of fortune telling and they have a very poor record.
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Laika
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| Posted 7/18/2003 8:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul5388
quote:
John,
Sandlot games are made up by "choosing" who will be on which side. You probably noticed that "appoint" is NOT the same as "choose". "Choose" carries the implication of selecting from numerous choices, whereas "appoint" is an offical decree.
"Appointed" from a field of candidates.
Edited by - Laika on 07/18/2003 1:11:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/18/2003 6:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
It's still a decree instead of just a selection. I may have chosen a woman to be my wife, but she didn't have to go along with my plans and may not have married me. If the king says by decree, you will marry this particular woman, then neither party has a choice in the matter.
EDIT: There doesn't have to be a "field of candidates" an appointment can be one person from a field of one.
Edited by - Paul5388 on 07/18/2003 11:52:55 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/18/2003 7:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Paul: you might want to try and find William Klein's book "The New Chosen People." In it he shows that just as Israel was chosen corpoately (in the sense that Israel as a country was chosen but not all within them would be saved because of unbelief) so the church can also be chosen and promise things without actual individuals being predestined. Excellant book, as is Robert Shank's Elect In the Son.
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pelajus
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| Posted 7/19/2003 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sandlot games are made up by "choosing" who will be on which side. You probably noticed that "appoint" is NOT the same as "choose". "Choose" carries the implication of selecting from numerous choices, whereas "appoint" is an offical decree.
I may not be John, but you are again doing nothing more than attempting to split hairs. Trying to limit 'choosing' to 'sandlot' issues is merely a red herring, since choosing is vital to appointing. After all, when Pat Robertson's prayer team gets finished (one of the few times I actually agree with one of his goals) there will be three vacancies on the Supreme Court for President Bush to fill. He will have to CHOOSE which three judges he wishes to APPOINT to fill these vacancies.
And isn't it interesting that no attempt has been made by Paul, Fleetwood, etc., to deal with the substance of my articles, that John put in his post that started this thread? Instead, this has all degenerated to trying to draw distinctions between 'choosing' and 'appointing.'
Kind of like the Democrats trying to bring the entire Iraq war discussion down to 16 words in the State of the Union address, isn't it?
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Paul5388
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| Posted 7/20/2003 1:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Albert,
I'm glad you pointed me to what you consider to be "expert" on the subject. So, I consulted the 3rd Edition (corrected) of the USB The Greek New Testament p 150 in the dictionary and found the meaning for prognosis is actually "foreknowledge, purpose". The same page gives this meaning for proginosko, "know already, know beforehand, choose from the beginning, choose beforehand".
Maybe you will accept Robertson as "expert"?quote:
{The foreknowledge} (prognwsin). Late substantive (Plutarch, Lucian, papyri) from proginwskw (#1:20), to know beforehand, only twice in N.T. (here and #Ac 2:23 in Peter’s sermon). In this Epistle Peter often uses substantives rather than verbs (cf. #Ro 8:29).
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Fleetwood
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| Posted 7/20/2003 2:43 PM (GMT -6) | | "you are not entitled to accuse him of being biased in his selection of verses when he simply was not"
Hate to be sarcastic, but last I checked this was America where all people are entitled to their free opinions and statements, whether right or wrong. Perhaps the correct phrasing would be, "I do not like" or "I do not appreciate your statement" rather than "you are not entitled to."
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/20/2003 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Fleetwood
...last I checked this was America ...
THAT would explain, then, why we give TGB in Lebanon, Laika in Africa, DLW in Mexico and BBB in Canada such a hard time.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/20/2003 8:22:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
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| Posted 7/20/2003 3:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
Are you really in Africa?
Just curious.
Shell
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Laika
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| Posted 7/20/2003 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | shell
quote:
Laika,
Are you really in Africa?
Just curious.
Shell
No.
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