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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/17/2003 9:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | This question arose on the counterfactuals thread, and I would like to hear some ideas on this. Where or when is heaven and hell? Are they separate dimension that can at times break into ours? What are your thoughts? Any good books you know of that discuss this? I have read Boyd's S&TPOE, and he presents an interesting perspective.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/17/2003 9:46 AM (GMT -6) | | I present a hebraist, middle-brow view of the following in the "Who the hell cares about hell" link.
Simply speaking:Heaven is where/when God is and Hell is where/when God ain't. Everything else are ontological constructs we use and abuse to (mis)understand the above but there's nothing wrong with that since Jesus did it too. We just shouldn't expect to find agreement on one particular ontotheological construct as "the" correct understanding.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
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Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
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Edited by - DLW on 07/17/2003 2:48:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Blood Washed Heretic
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/17/2003 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Amen.
The important thing is not what Hell is/will be like...
The important thing is that it exists/will exist.
All else is dangerous, time-consuming speculation, even if it does tickle the imagination somewhat, which is never a bad thing IMHO.
But I'm with you, DLW, I don't really think we should give a "damn". God will do all the sorting out of details (and souls), we just need to make disciples.
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/17/2003 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp
quote:
This question arose on the counterfactuals thread, and I would like to hear some ideas on this. Where or when is heaven and hell?
You don't know where HELL is? Have you never been to Iowa???
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/17/2003 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Blood-washed(you need to tell us what nickname you want),
You were positively Paulinian with your ambiguity over whether discussing hell is a dangerous/harmless thing.
Yes, I did in fact get saved when I was told by my pastor that if I rejected a personal relationship with Jesus that I would spend the rest of eternity on a porch in Iowa, waving and watching the people lined up on their way to go visit the mall of America in Minnesota.
So I take offense at those that characterize hell as annihilationism or eternal sado-masochisms or what-not. We shouldn't ameliorate the absolute dread the above image inspires since it may prevent someone from getting saved.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/17/2003 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for your comments thus far. However, my question really has more to do with whether or not we can rightly think of heaven and hell as "the spirit realm," which would be a separate dimension. I of course agree that heaven is where God's presence is and hell is where his presence is not.
As to whether or not this is a worthy topic to consider, it seems to me that Jesus said quite a lot about both heaven and hell. In very practical terms, the thing that has gotten me thinking about the inbreaking of heaven into our dimension has to do with the concept expressed in the message of Jesus and John the Baptist, "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" The kingdom of God/heaven has been said to be the active presence of the Holy Spirit in history.
I'm just thinking out loud. I apologize if you feel that I'm wasting your time.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 07/17/2003 7:45:31 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/17/2003 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John Earp
quote:
This question arose on the counterfactuals thread, and I would like to hear some ideas on this. Where or when is heaven and hell?
You don't know where HELL is? Have you never been to Iowa???
LOL. Just been through it one time. Grew up in north central Illinois and Chicago, which once you get outside the city limits is basically just like Iowa. Cornfields, and nothing else.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/17/2003 3:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Just call me BWH, DLW.
And the comparison to Paul is flattering, although I do hold a higher opinion of women than he. That's what being engaged does for a person. 
No matter how you look at it though, Hell is a very bitter pill to swallow...
Speaking of pills, I'll be weighing in on your Matrix discussion soon, DLW.
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 7/17/2003 5:18 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
You have given us a pretty tall order to fill. There is a necessity to consider the pit, the grave, sheol, hades/hell, tartaroo and gehenna, before one could determine what still exists and/or how long it has existed or will exist and if it is in this dimension or not.
EDIT: I forgot torments, but that may just be/have been a compartment in sheol or hades.
Edited by - Paul5388 on 07/17/2003 10:21:01 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/18/2003 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | BWH,
I look forward to your comments on TMR, but am about to go this weekend to a family retreat and so I won't be able to respond until next week.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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