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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 1/28/2003 8:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | My final thought for the day: (now I'll back off...:) )
Is there any theory of God's nature that can get past the bottom line that God is responsible for all- just by virtue of creation? by theory, I mean, any Christian theory that is somewhat related to the creeds. I don't mean pantheism, or some "God is the ground of being" stuff.
It seems that classical and OV theory believe that God created the universe and all within it. If God is a free- self actualizing libertarian being, he must be responsible for his actions. He's responsible for humanity.
So grant that he doesn't know the future. Grant that he endowed humans with free will. Once humanity has rolled along for a few centuries, it's pretty clear what is happening. Humans' free will is NOT choosing God, and actually is choosing evil acts more often than not.
Supposedly, under Christian theology, at some point God will step in and say enough is enough. There will be a new heaven and new earth. So obviously he does have that power and ability. But yet, for centuries he has chosen not to exercise it. So, isn't he responsible? Exactly how much free will is enough? He knows, as do I and every other non-omniscient creature, that humanity, as long as it continues, will continue waging war, terrorism, murder, rape,and all sorts of unspeakable evil. He's made his point. He wants us to choose him. How long will this experiment go on? How much more suffering has to occur from our free will choices? Why doesn't God step in?
From these comments, I'm trying to show that God is responsible for not stopping this. This is regardless of human libertarianism or not. So my question is, how does the OV help in this situation? Why is it any better than classicalism?
"All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher."
- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914) | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/28/2003 12:43 PM (GMT -6) | | God is responsible for giving a free will, not for how we use it. As Doctor Boyd argues in "Satan and the Problem..." this time on earth is a testing ground for what we will choose. So, from my angle God is not any more responsible for what we do than I am if I give my son a gun and he goes and shoots someone with it. Or if I give him a car and he runs someone over with it. God has given us the tools to choose wisely. If we are fools it isn't his fault.
Why doesn't God step in? I think you'll have to ask him...
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/28/2003 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Reasonabledoubt, I appreciate your inquisitiveness and the spirit with which you express it. Here's a little exert from my forthcoming book, Is God to Blame? It addresses the objection that God is responsible for what free agents do because he created them free.
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First, we have no more reason to hold God morally responsible for the evil his creatures choose to bring about than we do to hold parents morally responsible for the evil their adult children choose to bring about. As was argued in Chapter III, the free choice of an agent is the ultimate explanation of the agent’s own behavior, which is why they are morally responsible for their own behavior. God cannot therefore be blamed for what free agents do, even though he is the one who created them free.
Second, it nevertheless seems God could be blamed for creating a world containing free agents if the risk of creating this kind of world outweighed the possible gains of creating this kind of world. But why suppose this to be the case? Indeed, how could finite beings ever attain a vantage point to accurately resolve this question? The only one who has a perspective broad enough to accurately assess whether the possible gains are worth the risk is God – and he has clearly deemed the risk of love worth it!
Even more fundamentally, do we not tacitly acknowledge that we ourselves deem the risk involved in love "worth it" whenever we make ourselves vulnerable to others for the sake of love? Do we not implictly acknowledge our agreement with God’s decision every time we decide to bring children into the world? Do we not also testify to our fundamental agreement with God’s decision whenever we are willing to put our lives at risk, or the lives of our children at risk, to defend our freedom?
Indeed, do we not tacitly acknowledge that the risk of freedom is better than non-existence simply by refraining from suicide each day? If we truly believed life with freedom was not worth the pain that can come with it, we would end it. The fact that we choose to continue living, and choose to continue loving, despite the hardships that freedom brings, suggests that it is more appropriate for us to praise rather than blame God for creating a world with free agents. At the core of our being, we agree with God’s decision to take the risk of freedom.
Third, and most importantly, though we have every reason to accept that God is not morally culpable for creating the kind of world where evil can occur, it’s important to remember that God nevertheless takes responsibility for the evil in the world. This is what the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ are all about. God is not morally responsible for evil, but he voluntarily suffers the full force of evil in order to ultimately free the creation from evil.
On the cross, Christ suffers as though he was morally culpable for evil. And in doing this, he in principle frees us from evil. The righteous One completely identifies with our sin so that we who are sinners might completely identify with his righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). Christ gives himself over to death that we who are dead might be given over to life. His victory over sin, death and the devil, evidenced by his rising from the dead, becomes our victory.
Hence, we may say that God takes responsibility for all that is wrong with his creation not to purge himself of guilt, but to purge us of guilt. He graciously accepts responsibility for evil in order to free those who are responsible for evil.
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Hope this helps. Keep plugging away Reasonabledoubt. Maybe soon you're title will be "Reasonablebelief" 
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/28/2003 10:04 PM (GMT -6) | | How forthcoming is that book? Will it be after Myth of the Blueprint?
The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 1/29/2003 12:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Gen 3:16…and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 4:7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 1/29/2003 3:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey guys, thanks, I do appreciate what you've written. And I honestly am trying to figure things out so I appreciate your insights.
However, to Tim: I really don't have a clue why you posted the Genesis versus about thy desire should be thy husband. That has absolutely zilch to do with this post. Are you trying to say that women should not have an opinion?
If so, I am very offended. People like you are the part of the reason people are turned off to Christianity. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 1/30/2003 12:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Responsibility is all about being given the ability to respond as you choose
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