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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:07 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
springs
(Forum Moderator)
01/07/01 4:55 PM
Parables
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Someone wrote about the parables and now I can't find it.
Does anyone remember that part? The translation of the verse was something like: Jesus spoke in parables so they would not see, or hear and turn from their wicked ways.
Could we pull that forward and discuss it?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Plebe
01/07/01 10:52 PM
RE: Parables
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I found it. Enjoy
, "Which view of God do you find most plausible? Here, for my two cents, its no contest. If Jesus is the final revelation of God -- if our theology is to be "christocentric" -- then the all important question is this: Which view reflects a more Christ-like God? I can't imagine Jesus fashioning people into vessels of wrath from the foundation of the world."
There are many questions which I have regarding this statement but I will limit myself to one. The question: what type of Christ do the Gospels describe Jesus to be? The reason for the question is that the Gospels describe a Jesus who very much fits with the interpretation of Rom 9-11 which Lion-Lamb expounded. Specifically, in Mk 4:11-12 Jesus describes his use of parables. Why does Jesus use parables? Jesus teaching in parables is to hide the kingdom from those on the outside. Why does Jesus hide the kingdom from those on the outside? He hides the kingdom so that those on the outside will not understand, repent, and therefore be forgiven. Now, I know that there is some debate concerning the function of the Greek hina clause ("so that," "in order that") beginning v. 12. Some will argue that it is causal, while others argue that it is result. Frankly this is not a helpful discussion, for either way the problem of Jesus hiding the kingdom from some lest they repent remains. If this is true, then beso's imagination of Jesus must be reshaped in light of Mk 4. Also, the descriptions of Jesus in the Gospels are not antithetical to the exposition presented by Lion-Lamb. Rather, they correspond nicely. Any thoughts? I hope my first post is not too harsh, I do not intend it to be. Fashioned from dust, jugofmud
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Plebe
01/07/01 10:53 PM
RE: Parables
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I think I found what you were looking for, here it is.
Enjoy.
"Which view of God do you find most plausible? Here, for my two cents, its no contest. If Jesus is the final revelation of God -- if our theology is to be "christocentric" -- then the all important question is this: Which view reflects a more Christ-like God? I can't imagine Jesus fashioning people into vessells of wrath from the foundation of the world." There are many questions which I have regarding this statement but I will limit myself to one. The question: what type of Christ do the Gospels describe Jesus to be? The reason for the question is that the Gospels describe a Jesus who very much fits with the interpretation of Rom 9-11 which Lion-Lamb expounded. Specifically, in Mk 4:11-12 Jesus describes his use of parables. Why does Jesus use parables? Jesus teaching in parables is to hide the kingdom from those on the outside. Why does Jesus hide the kingdom from those on the outside? He hides the kingdom so that those on the outside will not understand, repent, and therefore be forgiven. Now, I know that there is some debate concerning the function of the Greek hina clause ("so that," "in order that") beginning v. 12. Some will argue that it is causal, while others argue that it is result. Frankly this is not a helpful discussion, for either way the problem of Jesus hiding the kingdom from some lest they repent remains. If this is true, then beso's imagination of Jesus must be reshaped in light of Mk 4. Also, the descriptions of Jesus in the Gospels are not antithetical to the exposition presented by Lion-Lamb. Rather, they correspond nicely. Any thoughts? I hope my first post is not too harsh, I do not intend it to be. Fashioned from dust, jugofmud
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Plebe
01/07/01 10:56 PM
RE: Parables
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sorry about the double post. I'm new at this.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
jugofmud
01/08/01 8:49 AM
RE: RE: Parables
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The quotation marks in this post mark off beso's statement to which I was responding. The remainder of the post is my response. As you can tell from my response, I believe Mk 4 presents Jesus as one who hides the kingdom from those on the outside by teaching in parables, so that (Greek "hina") they will not be forgiven. If this is so, then the Christ which the gospels portray Jesus to be corresponds to Lion-Lamb's exposition of Rom 9-11. Any thoughts? Jugofmud
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/08/01 7:35 PM
RE: RE: RE: Parables
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Does any one else out there have trouble with the idea that God speaks in forked tongue precisely so people will be damned forever? Why not just shut up altogether?
Now, I'm no Old Testament scholar, but it seems to me that Jesus is quoting Isaiah when he talks about using parables to blind people. (Is it chapter 6?) And, it again seems to me, that the point in Isaiah was that God was JUSTLY JUDGING obstinate people. In other words, God spoke through Isaiah in parables, and then through Jesus in parables, so that those who rejected God would be blinded, while those who truly wanted to know God would be enlightened.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
01/08/01 8:12 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Parables
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Beso-
I have no problem with Christ speaking to dumbfound people. The reference Christ spoke in reference to comes from Psalm 78:2 "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old"
It has no reference to God dumbfounding those who reject God outrightly, but it is in context to say that the meaning of the parable was for God's people. These "dark" sayings were to be taught to His people's children (v3-4). These sayings were taught to rebellious Israel, for the chapter recounts it unfaithfulness and pronounces these parables as a blessing, so it wasn't a judgement! Don't get me wrong, I do think the parables were intended for a hardening, but not for that SOLE purpose.
I agree that these sayings were to dumbfound those who hate God, but how would you judge one person as being obstinate with God, and another not? After all, we are natural born enemies to God, so much so that we are RECONCILED TO HIM through Christ. It would seem with your statement that man is saved by works or because God sees something lovely in him to merit it.
Christ purposefully dumbfounded people, but not necessarily as judgement, rather, He was speaking what would make sense later. He purposefully made people stumble, including His disciples for they didn't understand until He explained them, and even then they still had trouble understanding! Were they being judged? Of course not.
God hardens whom He wills and saves whom He wills. The parables were of a multi-purpose. To enlighten, to dumbfound, to clarify, to be a stumbling block.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/08/01 9:28 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Parables
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The words of Mark 4:11-12 are as effective today as they were when spoken and written by Isaiah, long ago, and reiterated by Jesus in his own teaching. Jesus' teaching in parables both conceals and reveals the secret of God's kingship, just as Jesus indicated.
“To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that 'they may indeed look, but not perceive,
and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.'” (Mark 4:11-12; NRSV).
Carefully note the bolded words in order that. The NRSV has translated the Greek hina correctly. It expresses purpose. Jesus expresses his purpose in using parables teach to the crowds, that is those on the outside. While he purposes to reveal the secret of the kingdom to those on the inside, that is those he has chosen, he purposes to conceal the secret of the kingdom from others, lest they repent and be forgiven.
BTW, this is not speaking with forked-tongue. The Serpent and his children are the ones who speak with forked-tongues. Jesus was entirely without guile. To this day, Jesus' teaching in parables has the same effect. Blindness, deafness, and hearts calloused to Jesus' teaching continue when people hear and read his parables.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
01/08/01 9:43 PM
RE: Parables
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"I agree that these sayings were to dumbfound those who hate God, but how would you judge one person as being obstinate with God, and another not? After all, we are natural born enemies to God, so much so that we are RECONCILED TO HIM through Christ. It would seem with your statement that man is saved by works or because God sees something lovely in him to merit it."
*Nope, that argument is on another thread. We say faith is in response
to grace.
Those who had faith sought understanding.
When Jesus spoke a parable some understood, some wanted to understand and sought out the answers, some didn't understand and didn't care, some didn't understand and mocked him. Some wanted him to quit talking in parables so they could arrest him.
During Jesus' ministry those who had eyes but could not see and ears but could not hear where those who said they could see. e.g.The religious leaders of the day and others. They were watching him. They asked him trick questions to try to accuse him. At one point they wanted to stone him and he miraculously escaped. When he healed men he told them not to broadcast it. God wanted Christ to be crucified on the passover. Toward the end things got touch and go. His brothers were bugging him to go up to the festival and make a fuss. He instead went up later, unobtrusively. Had he gone into the synagog and yelled ou I AM YHWH!instead of reading from Isaiah the probably would have stoned him right then and there.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
jugofmud
01/08/01 9:48 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Parables
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Beso,You are correct, the quote in Mk 4 does come from Isa 6. It concerns the horrible call of Isa to preach a message which is not accepted. You are correct that there is a lex talionis ("eye for an eye") aspect, for YHWH will make the idolatrous Israelites into that which they worship: deaf and dumb statues. But read further on in Isaiah and you will find that the Lord reverses this and states that he will give "eyes to see and ears to hear" (see specifically Isa 35:5).In Mark the divine opening and closing of the ears and eyes is present as well (so is the lex talionis aspect). Read through the Gospel of Mark in one sitting. Look and see who is doing the healing. What types of healings does Jesus do? It is remarkable that Jesus spends much time healing those who are blind and deaf. These physical healings point to spiritual significance. That is, Jesus is the one who opens eyes and ears, both physically and spiritually.One cannot have eyes to see in Mark without the healing touch of Jesus. Thus, those who se and those who do not see are determined by Jesus.jugofmud
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