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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 1:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | to dr gregory a boyd
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I found this on a bethel website it is a list of responses to a question you asked students,this guy never was answered
Dr. Boyd,
I think that the infinite intelligence is an excellent one. It almost seems obvious or implied in other arguements of the open view. Yet I think it is very necessary in order to logically understand objections such as, "How can God predestine certain events without predestining every course of events leading up to it."
Although, I do have a question about it... (or at least something that is unsettled in my head.) This view states that God knows every possible future and is completely prepared for any one of them. This implies that God can fulfill the specific events that he has determined through many different courses of history. When God made the promise to send a savior, this was determined to happen. If people had made different choices, the world could have turned out drastically different, but the promised savior would have come at one time or another.
My question is this... What does God do with possibilities that make it impossible for him to fulfill a promise or predetermined event? For example, lets say that the ark would have sprunk a leak and Noah's whole family would have drown. Game over. God would have perfectly known this possibility and been completely prepared for it, but what does this mean? With no more people left, it appears that God would be out of options and would have no way of fulfilling his promise to Adam. One may argue that God could simply make these few select possibilities impossible. However, does this mean that Noah was unable to die the whole time that he was on the ark? Lets use Abraham as an example. God promised him a multitude of decendants that would lead to the birth of Jesus. Was Abraham invincible from the time that God made the promise until he had Isaac? Furthermore, was Isaac then invincible until he had a son? It seems to me that there are certain possibilities that could have, by human standards, "put God in quite a fix". I also don't think it is very reasonable to say that God could have just ruled out these possibilities. Noah and Abraham still had freewills, which means that they could have killed themselves had they wanted to.
Just a little question I thought of... it would be great to get some insite.
Mike
god bless
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GregBoyd
06/21/01 7:00 PM
RE: to dr gregory a boyd
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Hi faithfull, thanks for the questions. Here's a brief response to the various questions you asked.
1) What does God do with possibilities that make it impossible for him to fulfill a promise or predetermined event?
If it was possible for a promised or predetermined event NOT to occur, then it clearly was not promised or predetermined. If God promises something -- unconditionally (which, I think, is rare), or if God predetermines something -- it can't help but come to pass.
2) lets say that the ark would have sprunk a leak and Noah's whole family would have drown. Game over.
Well, if it was possible for the game to be "over" at this point, we would have been reading about a different narrative than the one we're reading. But I have no reason to think that this "possibility" was genuinely possible. Keeping Noah's family from drowning wouldn't be too difficult for God.
3) does this mean that Noah was unable to die the whole time that he was on the ark?
Perhaps Noah could have died, perhaps not. If he had, the human race would have still gone on through his sons. Indeed, it may be that all but one set of parents could have died... who knows? Like a "Choose Your Own Adventure" Book, the range of possibilities given to humans is always delimited by God and other circumstances.
4) Was Abraham invincible from the time that God made the promise until he had Isaac?... It seems to me that there are certain possibilities that could have, by human standards, "put God in quite a fix". I also don't think it is very reasonable to say that God could have just ruled out these possibilities. Noah and Abraham still had freewills, which means that they could have killed themselves had they wanted to.
Whenever something happens a certain way, it seems, looking back on it, that it HAD to happen that way. For any contingent event, there is an innumberable number of contingencies that went into bring it about. Hence, it is natural to think that the way God steered human history, through Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc... is the way he HAD to steer history.
Of course, if he had done it some other way, because the central agents he used had made different choices, we'd be strapped with the exact same amazement.
The probability of any contingent event coming to pass is -- God's direction here bracketed -- one in infinitely. If ANYTHING in the past had been a little different, the event would not have been EXACTLY the event it was.
I take the promises to Abraham, Isaac, etc... to be conditional. If they'd have been unfaithful, to the point of abandoning God altogether, God would have elected a different covenant partner. And perhaps we wouldn't know who Abraham, or Isaac was.
Blessings,
Greg Boyd
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yamIam
06/22/01 10:28 PM
RE: RE: to Dr. Gregory A. Boyd
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Dr.Boyd, this is very interesting! OH, and I think I am becoming addicted to your website~~~is there a 12 step group?
Food for thought is even better than YAMS!
yamIam
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trosie
06/23/01 8:54 AM
RE: RE: RE: to Dr. Gregory A. Boyd
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yamIam: I think I am becoming addicted to your website~~~is there a 12 step group?"
I hear you! This site is definitely addicting, but for me I haven't figured out exactly why? Maybe it's because I love to learn about God. Maybe it's because everyone on this board thinks deeply? Hey, have you checked out the post GDG did about "Thinkers Anonymous" -- it's SO cute I don't know why my addiction but I am with you, yamIam!
I know God is pleased when we seek after the things above!
trosie
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Wislawa
06/25/01 12:49 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: to Dr. Gregory A. Boyd
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We seriously do need some sort of 12-step group. Mephi’s getting into trouble at home, I neglected homework last term and got bad grades, Doc’s getting into trouble with publishers. Eye-carumba (sp? how do you spell this anyway?) When I get to hell Satan will laugh at the mortal sin of theologizing that sent me there Help! I have no will power! Theology is ruining my life! (or maybe I don’t have any will power because I haven’t any will to begin with and its all God’s fault. Yeah I like that much better. Do you think Calvinists could get off the hook in a court of law with these excuses? Yes yes Mephi I know that’s not how they would understand it-but it would be if they could see what they’re really saying.) Enough, I’m starting the theology patch and taking my life back. Wait a second, I don’t have a life to take back. Opps.
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