 |
| 
archive
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
BBBCanada
03/05/01 1:36 PM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Been thinking 'bout this since last week when the Grammy’s were on TV. Alot of people are up in arms about Eminem's music. Most of those who are really upset about it are women's groups and the gay community. These same groups are the PC guardians of our culture. Eminem comes along and he is against the "establishment."
Question. Constitutionally, should or does Eminem have the right to say what he wants about women and gays?
Here is where I am going with this. At the moment, I believe that he should have the right to say anything he wants the way he wants to say it. At the same time, we also ought to have the right to criticize him. In other words, don't censor him, but censure him. But then, this leaves a question in my mind. If Eminem can say what he wants about women and gays the way he wants to say it, what is the difference between that and some forms of pornography? And then if there is no difference between what he says and some forms of pornography, why is the latter subject to “community standards” while Eminem’s music is not?
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
whasssuuuppp
03/05/01 3:06 PM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Stossel from ABC said this on a 20/20 program about hate speech/KKK/bigotry/etc:
“The answer to hate speech is not speech codes, but more speech.”
Seems to be kind of what you're saying too.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ilgwamh
03/05/01 3:32 PM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Constitutionally, should or does Eminem have the right to say what he wants about women and gays?"
According to the law as it is now: Yeah.
My personal view: I do not really support "tolerance." Mainly because I believe we cannot be "tolerant." I think exclusivity is inevitable no matter which you view you may adhere to. Tolerance does not tolerate intolerance. People often accuse Christians and their ONE way to salvation as excluding other religious views (rightly so IMO) and being intolerant. Well, that view in itself is intolerant of exclusive religions like Christianity. Something about a plank comes to mind...
But, following the constitution and more importantly the words of the Lord, I'll render unto Eminem what is Eminem's and give God what is God's
Lots of love,
Vinnie
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/05/01 5:10 PM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far, people agree with censure more than censor. Still, it doesn’t answer my last question. I agree with ilgwamh’s statement,
“My personal view: I do not really support "tolerance." Mainly because I believe we cannot be "tolerant." I think exclusivity is inevitable no matter which you view you may adhere to.
as far as religious pluralism goes and maybe as far as some of our public morality goes. But I don’t agree with all of it (public morality)-after all, I am being “tolerant” of Eminem.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
whasssuuuppp
03/06/01 12:13 AM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My take on public morality--
We are not going to transform the world and change people's hearts by creating more rules from them to follow. This is why I have some big issues with the "religious right/moral majority/conservative coalition" types. God's kingdom will not come thru governments, it will be spread as God's people show radical love to those who don't know God. Laws can never do this. Are morals wrong? No no no. But we need to be very careful about telling nonChristians they must live up to our morals. Let God love them into the kingdom. Then worry about behavior. Way, way too often Christians do it the other way around (change your behavior and then you can be one of us!).
One more quote: Homosexuals will “one day be annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
--Jerry Falwell
Oh, joy. I'm sure that encourages homosexuals to even walk in the doors of a church.
peace, ms. wassup
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ilgwamh
03/06/01 10:31 AM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Through political maneuvering? Nah. Through prayer and fasting? Yes! That is where our battle is won, on our knees. (General statements mind you)
Ephesians 6:12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm."
Lots of love,
Vinnie
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/06/01 11:23 AM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whasssuuuppp said:
"My take on public morality--
We are not going to transform the world and change people's hearts by creating more rules from them to follow."
I agree with you on that point. But this is not my concern. For the point of discussion, which is public morality, I am absolutely not interested in changing hearts. However let me ask these questions.
What purpose or function do laws serve or have? Do laws have *any* redeeming value at all for society?
whasssuuuppp also said:
"But we need to be very careful about telling nonChristians they must live up to our morals."
Now this is what I also wonder about. You say we need to be *very careful*. Again, I agree that Christians should not, indeed cannot, *micro-manage* society concerning “living up to our morals”, however, we do have laws to *maintain* a civil society. The problem, it seems to me, is where we draw the line on this question. For example, are having laws that govern certain forms of speech or expressions making or forcing or coercing others to “live up to our morals?”
Lastly, whasssuuuppp said:
"One more quote: Homosexuals will “one day be annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
--Jerry Falwell"
If I remember correctly, one of the last times Falwell and the gay community got together it was pretty productive. Was this statement made after that time or *well before it* when Falwell admits to being bigoted towards homosexuals and racist and against women ministers?
Again, can someone answer my last question in my original post? Thanks.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
03/06/01 11:34 AM
RE: RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whasssuuuppp,
You claim:
One more quote: Homosexuals will “one day be annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
--Jerry Falwell
What is your source for this quotation? Please document it. Thank you!
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
whasssuuuppp
03/06/01 5:00 PM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi y'all, I need to make a couple points of clarification to Brandon and lion--
The quote I posted is one from a list I keep--I often see quotes in books and copy them in my journal--and I don't have the source. So I do apologize, and realize that it wasn't appropriate in this circumstance to post the quote without a reference, because, as Brandon pointed out, Falwell's position has changed on this. I don't doubt that Falwell said this, but without a reference it means little now. The point I meant to make was to show the attitude some Christians have towards the homosexual community, ones that become apparent thru particular political positions. Erase Falwell's name, it doesn't matter, many hold this attitude. So please forgive me for that. If someone lets me know how to edit a message, I'll take it off.
Brandon, you talk about where we should draw the line with laws in society. Very hard question, I really don't know, though I do think thre are certain things that, for the benefit of the stability of society as a whole, should be enforced by laws--murder, robbery, rape, you know what I mean. But it is for sure difficult to discern where one is making laws for the stability of society or for other reasons. peace, ms. wassup
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/06/01 6:38 PM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ms. wassup said:
“So please forgive me for that. If someone lets me know how to edit a message, I'll take it off.”
I wouldn’t worry about it. You have posted an apology. But do you see at my name “BBBCanada” how there is a little pencil and paper? That’s the edit. It automatically appears on my posts. Anyhoo…
You say:
“Brandon, you talk about where we should draw the line with laws in society. Very hard question, I really don't know, though I do think thre are certain things that, for the benefit of the stability of society as a whole, should be enforced by laws--murder, robbery, rape, you know what I mean. But it is for sure difficult to discern where one is making laws for the stability of society or for other reasons.”
Well this to me is where the crux of the problem lies. We have biblical admonitions concerning certain behaviour, however, how this is to be *played out* or *applied* in the context of our Christian lives and/or society is a different matter all together. Which for me is an argument for being tolerant of Christian brother’s and sister’s differences.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Ex0dus777
03/12/01 2:16 AM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey All,
I firmly believe that oppressive measures, (ie censorship) are not the solution to any problem. I currently attend a christian college, wherein we have to sign a lifestyle statement to prohibit certain kinds of behavior. This has by no means stopped anyone from trying, or continuing to engage in prohibited activities. I guess my point is is that we exist in a fallen world, as I'm sure we are all aware. I do not believe that oppressing this type of behavior by musical artists, would be helpful. Rather, it may very well encourage them. As a teen looking back on the trends of music over the past 10 years, I can say this: I used to think music was bad 'back in the day', but the truth is that it has gotten much worse. I have had experiences with MANY types of music and bands, and my "most-informed observation" is that while there will always be great music (both secular and Christian) out there, it is just going to get worse. (If any of you have ever listened to uncensored Eminem you may think it not possible...) The expression "going to Hell in a handbasket" may seem applicable, but I think a better one would be "plummeting toward Hell at terminal velocity, attempting to use a dilapadated handbasket as a parachute."
Sigh. Sad really, to see one of God's most awesome gifts be perverted like so many others.
Keep on walkin'
-E
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/12/01 12:15 PM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Somebody once told me that before Satan fell he had the gift of music.
I'm not sure where this comes from. anyone know? I think there should be some enforcement of community standards, but it's seems that 'community standards' have degraded like the rest of society.
I first heard perverted music like this in the 80's with gansta rap.
Like Exodus said it just keeps getting worse. I'm not into Big Brother
contolling us all, but we do have laws about public decency, why don't they apply when you are famous?
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/12/01 12:34 PM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
springs, I just want someone to answer my last two question in my first post, which I think is related to your comment. Oh well, my search continues...
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/12/01 2:21 PM
RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brandon,
Yeah I saw that you were looking for those answers, I was trying to get there. I guess for me the only difference between his songs and pornography is one is visual and one is auditory. As far as having
some standards set, as a parent I believe that we should have some
restrictions. springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
AJtica
03/12/01 4:37 PM
RE: RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey all-
I'm new to this posting thing, so please be nice to me. It seems to be a major concern to many on this thread that things are getting "worse and worse" in our society. I would submit to you that this is not necessarily true. There has always been sin and there has always been corruption. There also always seems to be new things for Christians and conservative people to ge4et bent out of shape about. The point is, as long as we are living on this Earth, there is going to be sin and hideous perversions of the good gifts God has given to us. Maybe we as Christians should look harder at the things we CAN change (the lives of kids around us, the attitudes of an uneducated co-worker, etc.) than things we CAN'T change, like Eminem's explicit lyrics.
Christians get too preoccupied with issues that are too distant for them to fix directly. However, if we share the love of Christ to those around us, there will be fewer people who will go out and buy Eminem's stuff, thereby indirectly discouraging his work. Just a thought.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/12/01 7:52 PM
Sent sure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome AJ,
I like your ideas on evangelism, and your emphasis on personal relationship. Sounds like you have a lot of compassion. That's a gift.
As far as evil getting worse I guess it's possible that evil has always been as evil as it can be however I think the amount of evil going on in the world is growing at an exponential rate.
I do not consider myself a 'conservative' and I haven't seen anybody on this thread get bent out of shape. We have theologians writing here, and everybody else, all the way to our friendly Muslim. Many views, opinions, and intellectual debates grace our threads. Amongst all that diversity the one thing we all share is our Lord's heart for ministry. Most of our contributors have given countless hours to the Lords work.
You really are among people of a like mind. Even if we do have a thread on eminem. : )
be blessed
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/13/01 11:57 AM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
springs says:
“I guess for me the only difference between his songs and pornography is one is visual and one is auditory.”
Yes, I realize that *that* is a difference. Problem is that my question asks about “different forms of pornography.” There is “written smut” out there as well, so it isn’t *all* visual. The search continues. <-----Pouting.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/13/01 12:05 PM
Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AJtica says:
“It seems to be a major concern to many on this thread that things are getting "worse and worse" in our society. I would submit to you that this is not necessarily true. There has always been sin and there has always been corruption.”
Ooooo…now I like this. This is very interesting to me. This, it seems to me, is a major presuppositional basis for groups like the “Religious Right” or “Kingdom Now Theology.” Most Christians in the West have this notion that there is “some golden age that we need to return back to.” I just need to ask this question right off the top in response to this.
How much righteousness does it take in order to *qualify* us as a “Christian nation?”
Or, to ask it negatively,
“How much sin needs to be present in order to *disqualify* us as a “Christian nation?”
Now for my comments.
1. There is no such thing as a *truly* “Christian nation.” If you look at some of the history of other nations you will see that, they too, thought of themselves as “particularly chosen of God” in their foundings as well. Borrowing heavily from Old Testament stories using terminology such as “The Promised Land”, etc. I say this in contradiction to Peter Marshall and Co. who like to *highlight* certain Christian aspects of the founding of the United States of America (we have a tendency to do this with our Christian biases). Bottom line is, there will never be anything as a *truly Christian nation* until Christ’s return.
2. The closest thing we ever got to a “Christian nation” was the colonies of Massachusetts and New England, and those guys will admit they fell short of “glory of God.” There was more alcohol consumption per capita in Mass. at it’s founding then there is in today's America. And in relation to what AJtica says, the founders always complained about people not reading their Bibles and not going to church, etc. Seems they had a lot of the same beefs we have today.
3. I highly recommend reading, “In Search of “Christian” America by Marsden, Hatch and Noll. It’s an older book and therefore may be out of print. But if you can find it, get it. It is a must for any library.
Excellent, excellent point Ajtica!
Brandon <---AJtica's point made me happy!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/13/01 12:17 PM
Sent sure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
springs said:
“You really are among people of a like mind. Even if we do have a thread on eminem.”
I wanted to put a thread up on eminem because these boards are not reserved only for theological topics. I really do want to know how our theology moves from the head to the heart to the hand. That is, moving from theology as “heady” stuff to theology as a practical outworking, not only for us personally but also concerning “community.” Besides, the relation between religion and politics has always been a hot issue. If you go to the links at this site you will see that there is a link to Ron Sider’s site which I think is good. Maybe a link to the “other side” would be beneficial as well.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
03/13/01 1:05 PM
RE: RE: RE: Eminem: Censor/Censure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Falwell is an "annihilationist"? No way! Come on. There's proof he couldn't have said it.
Tom
| | Back to Top | | |
 | Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:49 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|