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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/26/2001 6:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dave
11/19/00 2:19 PM
Does not have perfect prediction?
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As I read more and more about OVT I keep asking myself how a God who knows all of reality, perfectly, and knows me, perfectly, ever be wrong when predicting the future? Does not this mean that God lacks perfect wisdom? I would appreciate any enlightenment. Thank you.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
judson
11/19/00 7:01 PM
RE: Does not have perfect prediction?
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Although it may seem like God would be perfect in his predictions of the future, the fact that humans are free is the key. freedom entails the ability to do something, regardless of what ones character or personality is like. Although i probably wouldn't go out and kill someone in a fit of jealous rage, the freedom to do so is still there. If God knows my character, knows every little detail about it, he would be able to predict what decisions i would probably choose, but not with certainty what i would do. Given my track record, i have never killed someone in a rage of passion, but being free, it is possible that i could do so at one point or another. God, being omniscient, knows what i will probably do, but also what is still possible for me to do. If i were to commit the act, God would be surprised in that it wasn't what he would've expected me to do, but he still would have known the possibility of me commiting the act. The point is, when dealing with free creatures, God's perfect wisdom does not gaurantee correspondence of the creature's free acts with his wisdom. i am not sure this is clearly explained, but i think this is how an open theist would address this question. if i'm wrong please correct me.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Dave
11/19/00 8:37 PM
RE: RE: Does not (God)have perfect prediction?
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Judson, indeed you have answered my question. Freedom is the answer I was looking for. It does still seem logical to me that God, in His infinite wisdom, could still predict our choices even though we are free, possibly not? I am unsure. However, now the question comes to my mind..."Are we truly free?" I am now trying to figure out exactly how free we are. Free to wear a yellow colored shirt if I want, yes, but free to chose good over evil in the spiritual rehlm...I am not so sure. Could you, or anyone, please debrief me on our wills in regaurd to freedom before and after salvation. Note: I do understand the Calvinist view of this, I am simply looking for the OV slant on this.
Thank you
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
stainlessoneeye
11/19/00 10:11 PM
RE: RE: Does not have perfect prediction?
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judson:
Do all human beings have the same amount of free will? In particular, are all people equally free to choose Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
trosie
11/20/00 1:15 AM
RE: RE: RE: Does not (God)have perfect prediction?
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Hi Dave:
I believe that God could do anything that He wanted to do, but because He wanted to create agents that could freely be in a love relationship with Him, He decided to set up a law in which He gave human agents freedom to choose this love. Due to the fact that He is omniscient He knows all the possible choices we might make, however, because of the law of this "free will" that He set forth for us, He does not know the decision we actually make until it is made. I want to throw out a couple of scriptures that I have found that support this freedom to choose:
2Peter3:9 "...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Deut. 30:19 "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..."
There are many more scriptures that support the fact that He has given us freedom. The freedom that we are given is a gift from God. I believe that we have freedom to choose both BEFORE and AFTER we accept Him as Lord of our life. It just appears that as we open ourselves up to being transformed into His likeness, our will becomes more aligned to His will, thus our choices seem to become the choices that He would have intended for us to choose. However, even after choosing Christ, He instructs us often to be on gaurd with our choices, just like in Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes." So WE are given the freedom to choose to take up God's shield to stand against the devil.
I can't seem to understand how it can be considered "free will" if it isn't free, and I don't see how it is free if He already knows the choices that we make because in saying this we are actually saying that we don't make the choices of our own destiny, (accepting Christ or not), but rather are just living out a script that we were predestined for.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Dave
11/20/00 3:12 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: (Totally depraved??)
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Indeed, you have proved to me that there is free will, and I agree with you. However, I am not satisfied with that answer. Possibly I am struggling with a minor case of Total Depravity? Indeed, are we totally depraved? Am I not in complete bondage to my sinfull nature before the grace of Christ? And if I am in that bondage, then how could I be free to choose Christ, without the help of Christ? I truthfully don't know. I am trying to grasp exactly HOW free we are, and if we are TOTALLY depraved.
Thank you
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
judson
11/20/00 3:43 PM
RE: RE: RE: Does not have perfect prediction?
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i don't think that it is necessary to try to weigh freedom, at least the kind of freedom in regards to choosing one's destiny. I think free will is something in human nature itself, therefore all human beings have it. if you're human, you're free. i think this is a different kind of freedom than the kind of freedom we often think of. for instance, some people would argue that some native in Indonesia isn't as free as i am to choose GOd, because he/she has never heard the gospel. i think this is a much different issue than the issue brought up in the question. one deals with freedom that is intrinsic to all humanity before creation, the other to a situation that occurs after creation. the issue of the salvation of those who do not hear the gospel is a different issue altogether than the issue of human free will. they do have some connections, but stem from different catagories. the first deals with an issue of human nature, the other with the issue of salvation. if this doesn't answer the question, let me know.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
11/21/00 8:59 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: (Totally depraved??)
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Gosh, I think you raise such good questions!!!
"Am I not in complete bondage to my sinful nature before the grace of Christ? If I am in that bondage, then how could I be free to choose Christ, without the help of Christ?... trying to grasp exactly HOW free we are and if we are TOTALLY depraved."
Here is a scripture that comes to mind: (Ephesians 2:8) "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through FAITH - and this is not from yourselves, it is a GIFT from God."
I don't know about the people in Indonesia, (or anywhere else), that never hear the gospel preached. I DO know that God loves ALL people and holds people accountable differently -- He looks at the heart He keeps in mind all the variables, (like whether a person was given the opportunity to hear the Gospel message, ...) I do believe, however, that since WE have the opportunity to hear the Gospel message, WE have the FREEDOM to make a decision of whether we accept Christ's gift of salvation. WE have the FREEDOM to allow God to live and reign in our hearts. Salvation is a GIFT from God that we receive by our FAITH (Gal3:2-5) Faith is a CHOICE which is ultimately up to each person to choose. So, we are VERY free indeed! We are free to choose to accept Christ through faith. We are also free to sin, to repent for our sin, to seek after God's truth, ... basically we have a FREE WILL. I'm hoping that what I have said is somewhat helpful in shedding some light into these questions.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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