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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 2:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Open View Theism
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Be the first to start a discussion of this topic.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
10/19/00 9:49 AM
RE: Open View Theism
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Hello Webmaster!!!!
I'm an Open theist out of the "Derby" school (Bob Hill http://biblicalanswers.com/ Bob Enyart) and currently taking the Systematic Theology I class taught by Open theist extraordinaire John Sanders.
I've enjoyed using Christus Victor as a reference for posts on other forums like theologyOnLine.com where the debate on God's foreknowledge is raging. Thankfully, we're winning the battle. I'm excited that you now have your own set of forums so those who disagree with you can come to you and discuss the "controversial" issues associated with the Open view.
I hope to post on here regularly once the forums start becoming active. Is there any chance that I can be a moderator of one of the forums? Are you going to ad more forums in the future?
Gotta run!
In the Beloved,
Sealed
Eph 1:6
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
10/21/00 12:28 PM
RE: Open View Theism
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John Sanders says Hi.
He also said that he'd like to check out this site's new look, but he's been continually on the run due to his heavy class schedule (and one student in particular who keeps asking him questions after class).
Sealed
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
10/23/00 1:30 PM
RE: RE: Open View Theism
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Today's poll asked if "Open Theism" is evangelical. I am in the minority (thus far)who believe that it is .
Some books that have helped me think through some of this are, "Evangelical Affirmations" (numerous authors) and "The Future of Evangelicalism" by Allister McGrath (sp?).
Evangelicalism is a wide umbrella that can be inclusive of a wide range of beliefs without stepping into the "secular downpour." Those who think that open theism cannot be included into evangelicalism have tunnel vision, mostly of the Calvinistic sort.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
10/25/00 6:28 PM
what's up with the poll?
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I'm surprised by the amount of people who believe that the open view is not evangelical. Here's why I think it IS evangelical:
1) open theists call themselves evangelicals.
2) they believe the Bible is inspired by God.
3) they base their view on the Bible.
4) they are committed to ministries that involve evangelism and discipleship.
5) they believe in the trinity.
6) they believe that Jesus saves.
7) they practice communion and baptism by immersion.
8) they believe in the power of prayer.
9) they believe that God can and does intervene in the world.
Will someone please tell me what is NOT evangelical about open theism?
Posted Originally From: CoolBoard.com
Web-Head
10/26/00 8:28 AM
RE: what's up with the poll?
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I really agree with you. Open Theism is certainly Evangelical. The poll, in my opinion, reflects the fact that anti-Open Theism forces have been well organized to watch the Christus Victor web site. When they saw the poll, they used their well organized group to spread the word to come vote.
I don't the the Open Theism community is nearly as organized. I think "we" are slowly but surely getting around to voting.
I say we need to get the work out to anyone we know who agrees that Open Theism is Evangelical. Lets get that poll changed!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
10/26/00 12:16 PM
RE: RE: what's up with the poll?
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For those of you who have posted thus far concerning whether the "Openness" is evangelical? Here are two pages from "The Bible Answer Man's" website. Norman Giesler (sp?) put out a little book not to long ago concerning the "Openness" view. You can read it in brief at this site:
www.equip.org/free/DG305.htm
and for one that is related to this discussion:
www.equip.org/free/DO076.htm
Another suggestion is to check out the link at this site to see "Opposition" to the open view which can be reached by clicking on the "Open Theism" site. To Web-Head, I would suggest that we do more than "just get the votes out" (realizing we are coming closer to the presidential election, personally, I hope Bush gets in) we should engage the thoughts and views of those who oppose the "Open" veiw of God and possibly change some minds. I doubt as a christian community we will ever be in the "majority", but as Greg told me one time, it is not so much numbers as much as it is speaking the truth. Also, in response to those who think it is not evangelical, I thought that "Sovereignty verses Freewill" (various authors IVP) goes a long way toward establishing what "biblical sovereignty" really looks like. And it 'taint deterministic.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
10/26/00 12:31 PM
RE: RE: RE: what's up with the poll?
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So sorry. You may not be able to get into those links I put up. Soooo, go to:
1. www.equip.org
2. Search the Archives
3. Type in Trinity and Process
4. Should be the 1st post, "A Summary Critique..." for related discussion and the eighth one, "NeoTheism: The Dangers..."
You may have to log in to this site which is rather easy.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
10/26/00 12:50 PM
what's up with the poll?
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Brandon, thanks for the resources. It's probably true that the majority of Christians will never be open theists, but I hope that the majority of Christians will come to recognize open theism as evangelical. The poll is not asking whether or not people agree with open theism, but rather whether or not they agree that it is evangelical. I think that people are confusing the two. It is difficult for some people to recognize that their demographic (in this case, evangelical Christianity) is inclusive rather than exclusive of people they disagree with. Just because it is difficult doesn't mean it isn't true. (I don't mean to insinuate that this is their only motive for concluding that the open view is not evangelical.)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
10/26/00 1:12 PM
RE: what's up with the poll?
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ghost-dog-girl said:
"It's probably true that the majority of Christians will never be open theists, but I hope that the majority of Christians will come to recognize open theism as evangelical. The poll is not asking whether or not people agree with open theism, but rather whether or not they agree that it is evangelical."
It seems to me that with such strong opposition to open theism coming from both Evangelical and Catholic quarters it may not find much acceptance in the sense that it is even considered evangelical simply because it requires such a major paradigm shift in how one views God that is central in many a mind that God is such a "control freak." It is similar to today's dispensationalism where one cannot seem to separate "premillennial, pretribulational, dispensational from "orthodox christianity." While the dispensational view may be easier to refute as such, the sovereignty issue goes much deeper me thinks.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
10/26/00 1:22 PM
The battle is on!
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The battle for the legitimacy of the open view will be going on during the next 3 days at the Wheaton College Philosophy Conference.
Please pray for Sanders, Hasker and Basinger and those of us who will be explaining the open view to those who really want to know what it is.
Sealed
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
truthinlove
10/26/00 8:01 PM
Open evangelical
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I would be more interested in knowing why people think OT is evangelical and why it is not. My basic point on why OT is not biblical is for the same reason Hinduism, Muslemism, and Mormanism is not evangelical - They worship a different God. I would say that your God and my God are two different Gods usuing the same names. Not unlike mormanism. My God has complete and exhastive knowledge of all things Past, Present, and Future. Your's does not. I will provide scripture later. Better yet. You can do a study yourself. Try some word searches.
Another reason is when I read the scripture I find diffinitive statements that God does know the future. So much so it shouts loudly in every book in the Bible. Yet, when the verse for OT are used they are easily answered by the EF (exhaustive forknoledge). I have yet to see serious challenges to major critisism EF bring up on the bgc.bethel.org website. When I read my writing I think it sounds a little hard. It is not meant to be.
Jude 24 &25
truthinlove
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
sparkleylight
10/27/00 7:14 AM
RE: Open evangelical
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Listen, here's the deal, open view Theology IS evangelical. Allow me to tell you empirically why I can make such a statement. Almost everyday I meet with and talk to 'seekers',atheists, and agnostics
(if I have to label them), and they do not SEE Jesus until their questions are answered. Open view theology is very refreshing to them because it seeks to actually answer them and not skirt around the issues. They, in general, have a distorted view of Who God IS to the Christian, due in large part to the same Christian telling them God knows everthing. They are forced to wonder if they are automatons,puppets, or victims of a bad joke if they see God as the
one designing THEIR 'path'. I believe that we were created to be free, the people I speak to have a desire to be free, indeed many even call themselves 'free thinkers' (as if to suggest that some thinkers are NOT FREE because their God has full control). How much more evangelical can you be? An open view theist brings the good news of the freeing Love offered for Free in Christ Jesus.
I have seen lives changed, hearts softened, and minds freed due to open view Theology, and I praise God
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
10/27/00 9:09 AM
RE: Open evangelical
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Dear "truthinlove":
I wonder if you are reading the same material on the bgc.bethel.org website as I am? None of the EF defenders claim that the open view is nonchristian (one author refers to the open view as idolatrous, but even this author will tell you he still considers open theists his brothers and sisters in Christ). While they try to show that the open view is mistaken, they make a distinction between mistaken and nonchristian.
In Jeremiah 26:3 God says, "I may change my mind" (cf. Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12-20; Deut. 9:13-14, 18-20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27-36; 2 Kings 20:1-7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5-22; Amos 7:1-6; Jonah 1:2, 3:2, 4-10).
If God made up his mind about everything that would ever happen before anything ever happened, then God cannot change his mind (if God foreknew that he would change his mind, then he didn't really change it).
So EF defenders explain this verse (and those listed above) by concluding that God is speaking in words that humans can understand, because if he said what was really going on, we wouldn't be able to fathom it.
You are adding to this and saying that if open theists conclude that God may change his mind when God says, "I may change my mind," we are worshiping a completely different God--open theists were either never saved to begin with, or they have lost their salvation.
Truthinlove, thanks for your assurance that you are not meaning to be too hard. Judging the souls of those you disagree with is quite severe and I suggest you do so a little more tentatively (i.e. don't log on to a discussion board full of perfect strangers and assume they have not studied the scriptures on this issue and announce that you consider them to be on the same level as Hindus, Mormons, and Muslims)--or better yet, leave that up to God (James 4:12).
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
truthinlove
10/27/00 10:42 AM
Ghost-dog-girl
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Thank you for your reply. I was hoping that I would find People knowledgible about the bible. One doesn't have to be saved to be able to read the bible and make conclutions about it. I don't have time to make further responces. I would encourage you to read the two bible professors from Northwestern College. I think they more that adequatly respond to your concerns. However I would like to hear you respond to their specific statements. I appologize for my spelling. Thanks for not letting it be an issue.
Jude 24 & 25
truthinlove
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
10/27/00 11:03 AM
RE: Open evangelical
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I believe the open view is evangelical because it shows God as a loving and accepting God and not an ogre that controls our lives. For people who struggle with the "whys" of life, the open view can be liberating. I can appreciate your interest in trying to come to an understanding of the reason some would vote "YES" to the question regarding the open view as being evangelical. Until recently, I would have been asking the same questions and making the same kind of comments. I was appalled that anyone would speak so irreverently as to say that GOD doesn't know everything that will happen. Then I came to realize that the fact that God doesn't know EVERY detail but allows us the freedom to choose is AWESOME! He is so much more powerful than I had even imagined. The open view allows God to be bigger since He takes all the decisions we make and orchestrates them so that it all works. How mundane and boring for Him if He already knows everything and every decision we will make. He longs for a relationship with us, but part of relationship is the uncertainty. I think it is agreed upon that He knows some of the future and yet not every detail and still makes the whole scheme of life work out. We can all agree that HE IS AWESOME!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
10/27/00 11:10 AM
God is awesome
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Preach it!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Web-Head
10/28/00 12:50 PM
RE: Ghost-dog-girl
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Hey did everyone see the new topics?
"Why OT is not Heresy." and "Mental Excersize"
I know truthinlove should have some good feedback for those! We need a few more of Truthinlove's ilk in here so we can have a good, wellmeaning debate
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
10/29/00 12:54 AM
RE: Open evangelical
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truthinlove said
"My God has complete and exhastive knowledge of all things Past, Present, and Future. Your's does not. I will provide scripture later. Better yet. You can do a study yourself. Try some word searches."
Which words do you suggest I search for? Complete knowledge? Exhastive knowledge? Just did a search for both of them and they appear a total of 0 times. Hmmm. Things aren't looking too good for your view from a scriptural standpoint.
You said
"Another reason is when I read the scripture I find diffinitive statements that God does know the future."
No. When you read the scripture you bring your unbiblical belief that God exhaustively knows the future and read that into the text. I know because I've been there. I speak from experience.
"So much so it shouts loudly in every book in the Bible."
Every book? Even the book of Jonah!? How about Jeremiah?
"Yet, when the verse for OT are used they are easily answered by the EF (exhaustive forknoledge)."
You mean that you've succeeded where Piper and the others failed? Please share with us and everyone at Bethel your insight. I need to tell John Sanders about this as soon as possible so he can correct his erroneous views I bet that you'll fail miserably in your attempts to refute the open view based on your first post alone.
Visit the Open Theism Info Site if you want to know what open theism is.
http://www.opentheism.org/
Perhaps you could have this passage "easily answered by EF" for us open theist heretics.
Jeremiah 3:6-7
6 The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. 7 "And I said, after she had done all these [things,] 'Return to Me.' But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
I read the article where Piper criticized Boyd's interpretation of this passage. I'm disappointed that Piper didn't give his interpretation of the passage in the article. How else could he interpret it besides the way Boyd does? The world may never know.
Sealed
Jon 4:2
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
sparkleylight
10/29/00 5:26 AM
RE: naveysealed
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Navey,
Just a note in reply to your last post...
Listen, although I completely concur (and you sound like me)in your defense of open view Theology, this truthinlove person is a part of the Body of Christ. No matter how hard it is to share our 'opinions' with one another I believe (and this is a fairly new revelation for me) that we MUST do all that is within our power to lift up and not tear down. This is NOT something that I am proud to admit, but I too debate the facts and am quite 'zealous' when doing so. Lately I question if my zealousness has sometimes pushed the envelope as to put down someone else and lift up myself I do not write this to condemn, but to say "If Christ is being preached...." who are we to argue. It is good to reason together, but some of OUR techniques could be honed.
I appreciate you and call you my brother in Christ .....which is also why I feel I can write you in such an open manner.
God Bless,
sparkleylight
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Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 2:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Message Go To Page << 1
sparkleylight
10/29/00 5:30 AM
RE: naveysealed
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Navey,
Just a note in reply to your last post...
Listen, although I completely concur (and you sound like me)in your defense of open view Theology, this truthinlove person is a part of the Body of Christ. No matter how hard it is to share our 'opinions' with one another I believe (and this is a fairly new revelation for me) that we MUST do all that is within our power to lift up and not tear down. This is NOT something that I am proud to admit, but I too debate the facts and am quite 'zealous' when doing so. Lately I question if my zealousness has sometimes pushed the envelope as to put down someone else and lift up myself I do not write this to condemn, but to say "If Christ is being preached...." who are we to argue. It is good to reason together, but some of OUR techniques could be honed.
I appreciate you and call you my brother in Christ .....which is also why I feel I can write you in such an open manner.
God Bless,
sparkleylight
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
10/29/00 9:59 AM
RE: RE: Open evangelical
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Nicely put, I agree whole-heartedly.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
10/29/00 4:27 PM
RE: Open evangelical
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I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth,
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son our Lord, who redeemed us by his incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection.
I believe in the Holy Spirit who breathes life into all things and is present everywhere seeking to draw souls to God.
I believe that this God is creator, redeemer, sustainer. This God has been revealed to us in the person Jesus Christ who is the Word of God enfleshed who was predestined from the foundations of the world to come and be the savior of the cosmos.
On the basis of these convictions, I believe in the God of the Holy Universal Church, the Bride of Christ which the NT bears witness to and the OT anticipates.
I can with honesty and conviction confess the ecumenical creeds which are the backbone of the Church at large (both East and West).
Which God do you believe in?
Are you sure that the above is not sufficient for fellowship and cooperation in the ministry of moving the Kingdom of God forward for the salvation of the world?
Please understand, Mormons, Hindu, Buddhists, JWs, etc. can not confess these things. They are truly worshipping different gods if they worship any god at all. Please tell my why my confession is not sufficient grounds for fellowship...
Blessings to you,
In Christ.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
10/29/00 4:46 PM
RE: Ghost-dog-girl
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Please take my advice and look BEYOND Northwestern College for insights on theology. I have had some experience there and have found that they tend to be more fundamentalist than anything. The world (even just the Christian world) is a big place and there are many more voices who deserve to be heard. If you want to take the Bible seriously, do yourself a service and study it for yourself and learn from teachers who encourage (and enable) you to do so rather than from those who tell you what to believe.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
10/29/00 10:25 PM
RE: The battle is on!
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So, NaveySealed, how was the conference???
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
10/31/00 8:36 PM
RE: RE: The battle is on!
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The conference was great. I had a blast!
The only bad part of the conference was R.K. McGregor Wright's response to Sanders paper. Wright is the guy who wrote the book "No Place For Sovereignty". Such poor scholarship. Not even worth buying. If you must read it borrow it.
Wright is admittedly not a philosopher and it showed. He claimed that the God Sanders spoke of was significantly different from his God, i.e. two different Gods. Three of the most prominent philosophers at the conference chided him during the question and answer session after his response.
The guys at Wheaton told Sanders that they had not read Wright's book. Otherwise they wouldn't have invited him. They just needed someone to respond to Sanders and their choices were very limited.
I roomed with the webmaster of opentheism.org, Joe Holt, on the first night. He was cool I roomed with Sanders the second night. He said I snored. I hope I didn't cause him to lose too much sleep.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
10/31/00 8:39 PM
RE: RE: The battle is on!
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The conference was great. I had a blast!
The only bad part of the conference was R.K. McGregor Wright's response to Sanders paper. Wright is the guy who wrote the book "No Place For Sovereignty". Such poor scholarship. Not even worth buying. If you must read it borrow it.
Wright is admittedly not a philosopher and it showed. He claimed that the God Sanders spoke of was significantly different from his God, i.e. two different Gods. Three of the most prominent philosophers at the conference chided him during the question and answer session after his response.
The guys at Wheaton told Sanders that they had not read Wright's book. Otherwise they wouldn't have invited him. They just needed someone to respond to Sanders and their choices were very limited.
I roomed with the webmaster of opentheism.org, Joe Holt, on the first night. He was cool I roomed with Sanders the second night. He said I snored. I hope I didn't cause him to lose too much sleep.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
11/21/00 2:56 PM
RE: Open View Theism
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A while back I wrote to Clark Pinnock telling him how much I enjoyed reading, "The Openness of God." In his response to my e-mail he mentioned that the classical view of God, "...is on it's way out."
Could you imagine? Think about it. The classical view gets replaced by the openness view and becomes the "orthodox" position? Would that be another "reformation?" Also, could we then say at that future time that God had a divine blueprint for this reformation to take place?
Well, Clark has also said, that if something "better" came along he would have to reconsider his position. That to me is sound thinking. Theology is an enterprise. God has not changed, our views and ideas of God must change when need be.
Brandon
P.S. If Clark ever reads this, please don't get upset at me for "quoting" you. I think Clark would not have a problem with what was said. As a professor, he is suppose to understand what formulations are taking place on theological landscape.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
11/23/00 1:57 PM
RE: RE: Open View Theism
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Why do you think OT has struck a chord in evangelicals who have accepted it? I think it has to do with God not being "way up there" (transcendent) and being "more human." He seems more accessable and he is not really not an old foggey of a judge. What do you think?
Brandon
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