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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 6:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
Mephi2K
02/06/01 8:28 PM
Correct The Open View Convert
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Dear Room,
I've been converted. I have become an Open View Theist qua Boyd's Spiritual Warfare paradigm. These are my views of human existence with regard to reality, God and human choice.
************************************************
On Freedom
I believe that freedom is not just about being able to "choose what you want" There is more to choice than that. For choice to be genuine, there has to be an option to do otherwise in the highest metaphysical sense. This means that I cannot be bound by anything ultimately save my own will in making a choice. If this is not the case, then, no matter how free I feel, I am not truly free. True freedom necessitates that choices ultimately belong to ME and no one else. Though they may be conditioned by other factors, I have the ultimate say-so. This freedom CANNOT be taken away under any circumstances, because to do so would render any agent who has had their freedom taken away without responsibility for any and all actions they may take.
Implications:
1. There can be no exhaustive predestination.
If there is exhaustive predestination, then that means that everything will ever be done has already been done, at least in the mind of God. No agent within this schema has the power to do OTHER then God's ultimate will. According to the definition above, no agent could ever be free. Thus, exhaustive predestination cannot be true.
2. There can be no exhaustive foreordination.
Reasons basically same as above. Now God can and does know INFINITE possibilities given any and all circumstances but he knows these as possibilities, not things that WILL happen. We could call this infinite speculation of possibilities. It is up to the agent to act out or "actualize" the possibilities. And God doesn't know which possibilities will be actualized UNLESS He expressly makes it so that certain possibilities will come to pass. But this is not ALL of those possibilities.
3. There can be no exhaustive determinism.
In other words, there can be no system where all human decisions can be relegated SOLELY to prior states of being composed of the internal and external factors of any given agent that determine exhaustively subsequent states of being. In other words, in some mysterious manner, my free will interacts with all the other influences, with my will as the primary actor, such that all decisions are genuinely my decisions.
Why Do I Believe In This Freedom?
I believe in this freedom because I can't live otherwise. We human beings naturally perceive ourselves as beings who determine our own fates. WE percieve ourselves as responsible fully for our actions. To deny this would be to deny something that really makes us human. We don't live as if we are exhaustively determined by any thing. And why should our very intuitive natures given to us by God lie to us?
********************************************
On Reality
If reality is indeed such that exhaustive foreordination, predestination, or determinism are true, then "freedom" as I have defined it is false, and our freedom is NOT real. Reality must be such that agents can make real choices that affect themselves and the world around them. Moreover, these choices must have the relationship to reality such that any ideal observer in the highest metaphysical level (God, for existence) would not be able to precisely predict any given decisions of agents. Reality must be such that agents can genuine affect God and God can genuinely be affected by agents. This presupposes divine relationship between man and God. Also, reality must be such that God can genuinely have probablistic knowledge of future events. This would help entail the "risk factor" for God. Because He created the universe in such a way that we could reject Him at the highest metaphysical level, God genuinely risks us volunatarily rejecting him, despite his best efforts at us. He risks the pain of rejection. We see this clearly in Scripture. [It should be noted that Scripture shows God's interactions with mankind AS it truly relates to God. He can repent and change his mind]
************************************************
On Love and Morality
Love PRESUPPOSES the freedom outlined above. There is NO WAY for human beings to truly love anyone else (including God) if there is not a real option to do otherwise. Moral accountability also presupposes the freedom outlined above. Because the ultimate choice is our own, we can genuinely accept blame for sins and genuinely accept praise for when we do good. Why? Because we could have done otherwise. When we sin, it is NOT God's fault, often its not even the Devil's fault, but it is genuinely our own fault. If my definition of freedom were not true, humanity may as well be a bunch of self-deceived robots.
************************************************
How does God accomplish some of His predestined purposes?
God uses certain parameters through with our freedom is bounded by his ultimate purposes. In short, in SOME, VERY LIMITED cases God interacts such with an agent's will to virtually micromanage the agent so that evens that He ordains DEALING WITH PARTICULAR PEOPLE definitely come to pass. This should not be confused with taking away the agent's will per se. God basically just places parameters around them such that they, of their OWN will and volition, does what He wants them to accomplish for his greater good purposes.
***********************************************************
At this time, I want to succinctly state what I believe to be my presuppositions for you...
1) Freedom, as I define it, exists in reality. (It's undeniable.)
2) When God tells us that He changes his mind, that's what happens on the highest metaphysical level.
3) Love cannot exist without freedom as I have defined it.
4) Moral accountability cannot exist without freedom as I have defined it.
5) God knows all potential actions, but he does not and can not know which of those actions will be acted out by the agent, unless He takes specific action so it becomes otherwise. (This is corrolary to "freedom")
These are my presuppositions (and claims from those suppositions) Do you feel that I am on point as an open view theist. Now I figure since I've spent so much time in the opposing camp, that I have some incorrect views here. If I were to ask you if I were a consistent open view theist qua Boyd's view, what would you say and how would you correct me? Go point by point if you like. If my major thinking and suppositions are correct, please tell me because I really want to be consistent in this new adventure. Oh, my, you guys! *sniff* I've never felt so...so...free!
Openly and Freely Yours,
Sir Mephistopheles
PS: One last thing, this is NOT copied from anywhere. This is an off the top of my head understanding of open view theism qua Dr. Boyd's paradigm. Just so you know...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/06/01 8:41 PM
RE: You almost persuade me. . . . . .
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Mephi,
Oh, Mephi! Oh, Mephi! You almost persuade me. However, I have a problem that prevents me from joining you. Perhaps, now that you're on the other side you can help me overcome the obstacle that prevents me from joining you. Here's the obstacle. I believe, a priori, that libertarian free will is simply wrong. Oh, Mephi! You've left Pilgrim and me to fend for ourselves. What shall we do?
Lonely,
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/06/01 8:55 PM
But WAIT...There's More...
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Oops. Sorry, Lion, but I'm not done yet...I forgot a section on epistemology.
On Epistemology
I personally feel that theology and philosophy has turned into too much of an academic enterprise, and not a truly inclusive, yet useful way for people to get divine truth and fairly accurate interpretations of our world. Thus I believe that we should grant MUCH more credit to our intuitive natures and its perceptions than we have in the past. I believe that we have to harness the full power of not only rationality, but also other forms of "knowing" as well. For far too long, foundationalist and overly rationalistic have provided us with a reductionistic look at our existences. We must not allow this to happen anymore. We must allow for our human intuitions to guide us lots more. Concepts like mysticism can be problematic because of the height of their subjectivity, but I do believe that we must take a very humble position to realize our limitations. Thus, bottom line, I say that we need to trust our perceptions and intuitions fully. Of course, we must be careful, but GENERALLY this works the best. This fits in well with my sense of freedom. As I trust my perceptions and intuitions being gifts from God to interpret his world, I wholeheartedly believe that I can TRUST those senses, especially with regard to my existential sense of free will. Summing up, rational discourse is ok, but we must take human experience into proper account.
********************************
On Proof:
I believe that it is clear that from my epistemology above, you can see that, to me, proving things is NOT all about logical progression and what have you. I have to take my perceptions and intuitions into account. Does it feel right? Does it jive with what my moral and existential wiring tell me is true? Unfortunately, classicalists don't want to deal with this crucial aspect. Having said all this, I don't completely denigrate rational discourse. It has it's place. But not TOO high a place on my list. As always, experience is always the best teacher.
Hmmmm...yep...I think that will do it.
Meph, the New Open Theist
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/06/01 9:38 PM
No Way? WAY? WAY COOL
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Dude? Dude! DUDE!!!
if you're jerking our chain i'm go'in to be REALLY ticked.
if you're not jerking our chain, then this is by far and away the coolest thing that has ever happened on this thread.
like i want to do this warm fuzzy deal right now, but i'm kinda mistrusting... you hank'n our rope chump? this for real? no way. way?
i just got off the other thread you started (help out a theologian deal) and said how much i love and appreciated you etc. etc. yada yada... but i chided you for committing you're brilliant mind to "defending the hopelessly indefensible." i mean it. check it out. on one level this makes perfect sense. on another, i'm surprised.
here's why i find this totally cool. i suppose this is on one level a minor theological deal. nothing we should divide over for sure. but then again, i found that this view changes everything -- WAY for the better! i had a kind of "conversion experience" myself with this... like, incredible freedom... coin dropped in the slot/light went on/ eureka/ got it/embrace it/Christianity finally makes sense sort of deal. i doubt i'd be a christian -- certainly not an on fire radical demon hating soul winning skater Christian -- if it weren't for this view. i can say the same for about two dozen other kids i've brought to the Lord. this thing really is FREEING.
if you're not bust'n our chops, bro, you said it so totally cool. every word.
if you are bust'n our chops, i'm going to hunt you down.
and its totally cool that you are just, like, out here say'n it. you always had this about you, Meph... couple times you "ate crow". humble guy you are. rare.
so, final answer... Meph, are you saying you, at least at this point, really are embracing the convictions you put out there earlier?
i don't know why... but this really gets to me. i'm smil'n. big time. nothing at all about "whose right or wrong." crappolla ville with that nonsense. its just cool watch'n your mind.
love ya (whatever you end up believing -- but happy you're where you're at now. hope it sticks)
shine with ya at 150 (: (: (: (: (: !!!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/06/01 10:00 PM
No words...
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Mephi, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/06/01 10:25 PM
Sorry, Shine. No Way.
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Dear Shine,
Sheesh. NOW I feel like a first class heel. I never, ever, EVER in a million years would have thought that someone would have taken this thread as my serious conversion experience to open view theism. When I saw what you wrote, I was straight up flabbergasted. I literally almost fell out of my chair. Let it be known that: NO, I am not converted to open view theism. This was an exercise of sorts. So, as far as hunting me down, best get your gun, pard...but before you start looking for the rifle, let me explain, ok?
Remember how I was talking with G-D-G about getting the suppositions of open view theists to see their view from the inside? Remember how I said that I'd tried everything to get them? Well, I thought of another idea. Role playing. I figured that I would role play an open view theist qua Boyd's paradigm. In doing this, I would literally immerse myself in what I understood to be the open view. In that state of immersion, I would state what I believed and why. Following this, I asked the question about my beliefs. Like were they true to open view theism. I wanted to do this for three reasons:
1) To clarify my understanding of open view theism via the comments and suggestions made to my role play.
2) Demonstrate that I had a considerable, though incomplete, understanding of open view theism as YOU see it.
3) Show that perhaps the premises of open view theism, upon which I base my argumentation against it, are accurate and that my arguments may pack much more punch then they are getting credit for.
I must say, Shine, I am sorry. I TRULY didn't intend for anyone to believe this. I figured that my tone was sufficiently facetious and the contrast with earlier posts that day so great, that everyone would realize that I was role playing. Obviously, I was mistaken. I'm sorry if you felt like I was playing with your emotions. I assure you that that wasn't my purpose at all. NOR was it to make fun of open view theists.
I repeat, this was NOT to make FUN of OPEN VIEW THEISTS!!!!
I trust that you see this is the case. You said a lot of good things about me and I really appreciate them all. I pray that this accidental incident hasn't diminished too much of your respect for me. I made a mistake and I'm sorry. I ask your forgiveness. Anyone else who was offended by this, I ask your forgiveness too I am asking, nay, BEGGING that we don't let hurt emotions or things like that get in the way of what I was trying to accomplish here. Again, the main attempt was merely a perception check of MY understanding of open view theism. Again, my most ardent apologies for any and all inconvenience.
Apologetically yours,
Mephi2K
PS: How in the WORLD could such a potentially good idea go so friggin awry? Part of me STILL can't believe this...
PSS: Would anyone find it intolerable if I continued with the role play?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/06/01 10:29 PM
And You, G-D-G...
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Home girl,
I TRUST that you understand the purpose of this, along with my intentions. AND I trust that YOU have some insightful things to say about it. So please do. Critique as you will.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/06/01 10:44 PM
RE: Say it aint so, Joe!
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Mephi,
Well knock me over with a feather. You were being facetious? Really? You were being witty? You were so convincing. You articulated open theism beautifully, as if you were an open theist.
Scratching head,
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/06/01 11:09 PM
RE: And You, G-D-G...
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Meph, first the beautiful, yet quirky ship parable, and now the oh-so-open convert gag. You must be desperate--you're resorting to humor (you always had that one going for you), imagination, empathy, and genuine creativity to make your point. I'm proud of ya!
I'm dying to respond but I don't know where to begin....So as a recent convert to open theism, what part of your new understanding are you most excited about?
Still laughing, GDG
p.s. Shine, you don't need to hunt Mephi down, just send him a message that starts off something like this: "I've been converted. I have become a Classical Theist qua Mephi's rational demonstration of his presuppositions and Lion-Lamb's theology of language. These are my views of human existence with regard to reality, God and human choice...."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/06/01 11:25 PM
RE: Does it get any better?
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Thanks to all!!! It was truly a kick reading this!
I haven't smiled this big all day. too funny.
Meph, I mean Sir Mephistopheles, that was grand. I'll be
reading that one again. You never cease to amaze me. I was
thinking it was going to be a long time before your longed
for presuppositions showed up, I guess you got tired of
waiting too. : )
Can't wait to see what the Ghost has got. Shine cracks me up.
later
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/07/01 12:54 AM
RE: Correct The Open View Convert
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Mephi2K: once a week, on Thursdays, at nine o'clock in the morning for an hour I volunteer at my daughter's 2nd grade class and about 10 til they get all wired up and are making no sense whatsoever and they're eating their snacks and making no sense whatsoever and I'm about to walk outside smell the fresh air so I kiss my daughter goodbye and 20 screaming kids run past me onto the playground, making no sense whatsoever, and there is such joy in their faces and as I watch them I come to realize that they are so much more important than anything I will ever say or write and, you know, God is good, and I thought your tongue in cheek story was quite offensive but, you know, it doesn't really matter because the kids are in bed now and tomorrow, God will love me and so will my kids, but sometimes, I've noticed, the more one writes the less one actually says, so I think I'll go make my daughter's lunch for tomorrow, try not to do that and leave you to your hahahahas...pleasant dreams all...Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/07/01 7:19 AM
Hail, Citizens!
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Say, citizens,
I just thought of something. Though Shine may have been a tad TOO convinced I was an open theist, (again, man, sorry about that) it strikes me as how much he resonated with everything I said. From what I gathered, my current summation of my open view beliefs were right on point, according to Shine. I mean, before my position was quite indefensible, but my current position seems not only plausible but darn near EXACTLY what an openness person should say, at least according to Shine. Should I take that as an indication that my thoughts about open view theism qua Boyd's view are pretty accurate? Well, now...
"Openly" Thoughtful,
Mephi2K
PS: By the way, G-D-G, I'm quite interested and excited about my new concept of Freedom. (It's so...liberating...) Do you think it's accurate? How well does it jive with your concept?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
02/07/01 7:28 AM
RE: Hail, Citizens!
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Mephi,
You nailed OV as I understand it. Let's have a OV to classical convert write their story.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 9:03 AM
yes, let's
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Good call, don. I hope that shine will do it. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 9:53 AM
Mephi, I always wanted to teach you a lesson or two...
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Mephi, before you start singing the praises of the open view to your classical buddies, let me be the Priscilla to your Apollos.
You used to believe that the combination of factors involved in a particular decision yielded a single effect. The thing that was not helpful about this belief was how reductive it was. The thing that was helpful about it, that you don't need to discard now that you have been "liberated" is that choices are not made in a vaccum--their contexts (both intrinsic and extrinsic) constrain and influence their outcome. Remember how you used to think that it was either your reductive idea of the human will, or random, ex nihilo, absurd actions? Well, the limits of our contexts ensure the continuity of our activity in creation. You said, "This means that I cannot be bound by anything ultimately save my own will in making a choice." This is going too far again. If this were the case, then everything would be effects without any causes, which is absurd. While we have the capacity to make some things happen according to our own wills, many things happen to us against or in spite of our wills. These are the things that form the context of our freedom.
You also said, "This freedom CANNOT be taken away under any circumstances, because to do so would render any agent who has had their freedom taken away without responsibility for any and all actions they may take." Freedom can be revoked. Think about the parable of the talents. The servants were held responsible for how they invested the capital their master trusted them with. If you invest well, you will be trusted with more. If you invest poorly, even what you have will be taken away. So for example, people who increasingly use their freedom for evil eventually lose the capacity to do otherwise. (This is how doc explains predestined wicked acts.) Pharaoh might be an example of this. (I know you prefer rational demonstration, but I'm much more fluent in story language, and that's why I'm lapsing into biblical examples. Sorry.)
I think that's enough for now. I'm sure you'll have some questions for me. If not, I will move on to your understanding of the implications of your new found freedom.
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/07/01 10:36 AM
Who's Teaching Whom?
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Interesting...
You said:
"You [Mephi] said, "This means that I cannot be bound by anything ultimately save my own will in making a choice." This is going too far again. If this were the case, then everything would be effects without any causes, which is absurd. While we have the capacity to make some things happen according to our own wills, many things happen to us against or in spite of our wills. These are the things that form the context of our freedom."
Mephi:
Hmmm...didn't I say EXACTLY what you've been telling me for a while now?
My quote:
"Though they may be conditioned by other factors, I have the ultimate say-so."
and again,
"In other words, in some mysterious manner, my free will interacts with all the other influences, with my will as the primary actor, such that all decisions are genuinely my decisions.
Mephi:
I think you may have read way too much into the "ultimately" Basically, I was saying almost EXACTLY what I've heard being said here on this board. That even though all the other factors INFLUENCE us, it is ultimately our WILLS and the exercise of those wills that have the deciding punch. Thus we are influenced, but NOT DETERMINED by our internal and external factors. This is definitely not the same thing as AUTONOMOUS free will that I was talking about before. Now... where was I off again? LOL
You also said:
"Freedom can be revoked."
Mephi:
Quote from Dr. Boyd from the "Six Theses" page:
"5. Power to Influence is Irrevocable | Genuine freedom must be irrevocable. If it can be revoked, creatures cannot be held responsible for their use of it, nor can they fully realize their potential for love. Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil. Since God is omnipotent, he is able to accomplish his will within these parameters without compromising his own integrity or limiting the potential of his creatures by revoking their freedom."
Hmmm...seems like I'm right on par with open view theism qua Boyd's view to me... I'm being VERY consistent, don't you think?
Waiting to hear more from Priscilla,
Mephi2K
PS: I refuse to believe that I, a new open theist, know more about open view theism than established open view theists. So, let's keep at this...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/07/01 10:41 AM
Meph is a shmuck
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egg on face. i suspected it was too good to be true. but i hoped. dang!!! fooled me Lion. nice one dude. i really thought it might be real -- "you saw the light." stranger things have happened. but alas, schmuck head! i'm renaming you Mephijerkoles.
three things suckered me. a) it always struck me as odd that a person with your brain power holds on to and defends an indefensible position. you ought to be an open theist. b) i was so excited, i didn't read your piece carefully enough. i might have noticed that the turn-around was too perfect. and c) i couldn't believe anyone would be such a heel.(: you proved me wrong, Mephijerkoles.
but i, i am a wonderful Christian dude, so i won't hunt you down and waste you. (i got huge pipes!) i will rather forgive you. schmuckhead. in fact, i confess i'm impressed. i'm disappointed your still confused, but love your schumucky style. rock on. one point for you. people on this discussion board sometimes take themselves too seriously. good to see some "bust your chops" humor.
schmuck.
you wait/.
now ghost girl, whose brain i'm infatuated with, wants me to reverse the favor and do a classical theology conversion. well... give me a bit to get over my depression that Meph is still confused.
i'll be back, "seeing the light" from the classical perspective.
till then
my heart has been slightly wounded,
my light has been slightly dimmed
but i still shine at 149.
my
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/07/01 10:47 AM
Shmuck?
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Um, I don't think I'm going to directly reply to this "shmuck" thing. But I think I will let any OTHER people who find this little statement interesting say a few words. Once again, sorry, Shine.
Mephi2K, the New Open Theist
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 10:52 AM
Freedom: Revocable or Irrevocable?
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Freedom IS NOT revocable in the sense that God never determines our actions in ways that contradict our self-determined characters. But freedom MIGHT BE revocable in the sense that over time we may self-determine our characters to the point that we no longer have the capacity to do otherwise. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 12:21 PM
Mephi & GDG--two confused OTs asking for clarification
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Uh...doc...modes...help me out on this one. I'm sure I have it down quite right. GDG
Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
Mephi2K
02/06/01 8:28 PM
Correct The Open View Convert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Room,
I've been converted. I have become an Open View Theist qua Boyd's Spiritual Warfare paradigm. These are my views of human existence with regard to reality, God and human choice.
************************************************
On Freedom
I believe that freedom is not just about being able to "choose what you want" There is more to choice than that. For choice to be genuine, there has to be an option to do otherwise in the highest metaphysical sense. This means that I cannot be bound by anything ultimately save my own will in making a choice. If this is not the case, then, no matter how free I feel, I am not truly free. True freedom necessitates that choices ultimately belong to ME and no one else. Though they may be conditioned by other factors, I have the ultimate say-so. This freedom CANNOT be taken away under any circumstances, because to do so would render any agent who has had their freedom taken away without responsibility for any and all actions they may take.
Implications:
1. There can be no exhaustive predestination.
If there is exhaustive predestination, then that means that everything will ever be done has already been done, at least in the mind of God. No agent within this schema has the power to do OTHER then God's ultimate will. According to the definition above, no agent could ever be free. Thus, exhaustive predestination cannot be true.
2. There can be no exhaustive foreordination.
Reasons basically same as above. Now God can and does know INFINITE possibilities given any and all circumstances but he knows these as possibilities, not things that WILL happen. We could call this infinite speculation of possibilities. It is up to the agent to act out or "actualize" the possibilities. And God doesn't know which possibilities will be actualized UNLESS He expressly makes it so that certain possibilities will come to pass. But this is not ALL of those possibilities.
3. There can be no exhaustive determinism.
In other words, there can be no system where all human decisions can be relegated SOLELY to prior states of being composed of the internal and external factors of any given agent that determine exhaustively subsequent states of being. In other words, in some mysterious manner, my free will interacts with all the other influences, with my will as the primary actor, such that all decisions are genuinely my decisions.
Why Do I Believe In This Freedom?
I believe in this freedom because I can't live otherwise. We human beings naturally perceive ourselves as beings who determine our own fates. WE percieve ourselves as responsible fully for our actions. To deny this would be to deny something that really makes us human. We don't live as if we are exhaustively determined by any thing. And why should our very intuitive natures given to us by God lie to us?
********************************************
On Reality
If reality is indeed such that exhaustive foreordination, predestination, or determinism are true, then "freedom" as I have defined it is false, and our freedom is NOT real. Reality must be such that agents can make real choices that affect themselves and the world around them. Moreover, these choices must have the relationship to reality such that any ideal observer in the highest metaphysical level (God, for existence) would not be able to precisely predict any given decisions of agents. Reality must be such that agents can genuine affect God and God can genuinely be affected by agents. This presupposes divine relationship between man and God. Also, reality must be such that God can genuinely have probablistic knowledge of future events. This would help entail the "risk factor" for God. Because He created the universe in such a way that we could reject Him at the highest metaphysical level, God genuinely risks us volunatarily rejecting him, despite his best efforts at us. He risks the pain of rejection. We see this clearly in Scripture. [It should be noted that Scripture shows God's interactions with mankind AS it truly relates to God. He can repent and change his mind]
************************************************
On Love and Morality
Love PRESUPPOSES the freedom outlined above. There is NO WAY for human beings to truly love anyone else (including God) if there is not a real option to do otherwise. Moral accountability also presupposes the freedom outlined above. Because the ultimate choice is our own, we can genuinely accept blame for sins and genuinely accept praise for when we do good. Why? Because we could have done otherwise. When we sin, it is NOT God's fault, often its not even the Devil's fault, but it is genuinely our own fault. If my definition of freedom were not true, humanity may as well be a bunch of self-deceived robots.
************************************************
How does God accomplish some of His predestined purposes?
God uses certain parameters through with our freedom is bounded by his ultimate purposes. In short, in SOME, VERY LIMITED cases God interacts such with an agent's will to virtually micromanage the agent so that evens that He ordains DEALING WITH PARTICULAR PEOPLE definitely come to pass. This should not be confused with taking away the agent's will per se. God basically just places parameters around them such that they, of their OWN will and volition, does what He wants them to accomplish for his greater good purposes.
***********************************************************
At this time, I want to succinctly state what I believe to be my presuppositions for you...
1) Freedom, as I define it, exists in reality. (It's undeniable.)
2) When God tells us that He changes his mind, that's what happens on the highest metaphysical level.
3) Love cannot exist without freedom as I have defined it.
4) Moral accountability cannot exist without freedom as I have defined it.
5) God knows all potential actions, but he does not and can not know which of those actions will be acted out by the agent, unless He takes specific action so it becomes otherwise. (This is corrolary to "freedom")
These are my presuppositions (and claims from those suppositions) Do you feel that I am on point as an open view theist. Now I figure since I've spent so much time in the opposing camp, that I have some incorrect views here. If I were to ask you if I were a consistent open view theist qua Boyd's view, what would you say and how would you correct me? Go point by point if you like. If my major thinking and suppositions are correct, please tell me because I really want to be consistent in this new adventure. Oh, my, you guys! *sniff* I've never felt so...so...free!
Openly and Freely Yours,
Sir Mephistopheles
PS: One last thing, this is NOT copied from anywhere. This is an off the top of my head understanding of open view theism qua Dr. Boyd's paradigm. Just so you know...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/06/01 8:41 PM
RE: You almost persuade me. . . . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi,
Oh, Mephi! Oh, Mephi! You almost persuade me. However, I have a problem that prevents me from joining you. Perhaps, now that you're on the other side you can help me overcome the obstacle that prevents me from joining you. Here's the obstacle. I believe, a priori, that libertarian free will is simply wrong. Oh, Mephi! You've left Pilgrim and me to fend for ourselves. What shall we do?
Lonely,
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/06/01 8:55 PM
But WAIT...There's More...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oops. Sorry, Lion, but I'm not done yet...I forgot a section on epistemology.
On Epistemology
I personally feel that theology and philosophy has turned into too much of an academic enterprise, and not a truly inclusive, yet useful way for people to get divine truth and fairly accurate interpretations of our world. Thus I believe that we should grant MUCH more credit to our intuitive natures and its perceptions than we have in the past. I believe that we have to harness the full power of not only rationality, but also other forms of "knowing" as well. For far too long, foundationalist and overly rationalistic have provided us with a reductionistic look at our existences. We must not allow this to happen anymore. We must allow for our human intuitions to guide us lots more. Concepts like mysticism can be problematic because of the height of their subjectivity, but I do believe that we must take a very humble position to realize our limitations. Thus, bottom line, I say that we need to trust our perceptions and intuitions fully. Of course, we must be careful, but GENERALLY this works the best. This fits in well with my sense of freedom. As I trust my perceptions and intuitions being gifts from God to interpret his world, I wholeheartedly believe that I can TRUST those senses, especially with regard to my existential sense of free will. Summing up, rational discourse is ok, but we must take human experience into proper account.
********************************
On Proof:
I believe that it is clear that from my epistemology above, you can see that, to me, proving things is NOT all about logical progression and what have you. I have to take my perceptions and intuitions into account. Does it feel right? Does it jive with what my moral and existential wiring tell me is true? Unfortunately, classicalists don't want to deal with this crucial aspect. Having said all this, I don't completely denigrate rational discourse. It has it's place. But not TOO high a place on my list. As always, experience is always the best teacher.
Hmmmm...yep...I think that will do it.
Meph, the New Open Theist
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/06/01 9:38 PM
No Way? WAY? WAY COOL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dude? Dude! DUDE!!!
if you're jerking our chain i'm go'in to be REALLY ticked.
if you're not jerking our chain, then this is by far and away the coolest thing that has ever happened on this thread.
like i want to do this warm fuzzy deal right now, but i'm kinda mistrusting... you hank'n our rope chump? this for real? no way. way?
i just got off the other thread you started (help out a theologian deal) and said how much i love and appreciated you etc. etc. yada yada... but i chided you for committing you're brilliant mind to "defending the hopelessly indefensible." i mean it. check it out. on one level this makes perfect sense. on another, i'm surprised.
here's why i find this totally cool. i suppose this is on one level a minor theological deal. nothing we should divide over for sure. but then again, i found that this view changes everything -- WAY for the better! i had a kind of "conversion experience" myself with this... like, incredible freedom... coin dropped in the slot/light went on/ eureka/ got it/embrace it/Christianity finally makes sense sort of deal. i doubt i'd be a christian -- certainly not an on fire radical demon hating soul winning skater Christian -- if it weren't for this view. i can say the same for about two dozen other kids i've brought to the Lord. this thing really is FREEING.
if you're not bust'n our chops, bro, you said it so totally cool. every word.
if you are bust'n our chops, i'm going to hunt you down.
and its totally cool that you are just, like, out here say'n it. you always had this about you, Meph... couple times you "ate crow". humble guy you are. rare.
so, final answer... Meph, are you saying you, at least at this point, really are embracing the convictions you put out there earlier?
i don't know why... but this really gets to me. i'm smil'n. big time. nothing at all about "whose right or wrong." crappolla ville with that nonsense. its just cool watch'n your mind.
love ya (whatever you end up believing -- but happy you're where you're at now. hope it sticks)
shine with ya at 150 (: (: (: (: (: !!!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/06/01 10:00 PM
No words...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/06/01 10:25 PM
Sorry, Shine. No Way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Shine,
Sheesh. NOW I feel like a first class heel. I never, ever, EVER in a million years would have thought that someone would have taken this thread as my serious conversion experience to open view theism. When I saw what you wrote, I was straight up flabbergasted. I literally almost fell out of my chair. Let it be known that: NO, I am not converted to open view theism. This was an exercise of sorts. So, as far as hunting me down, best get your gun, pard...but before you start looking for the rifle, let me explain, ok?
Remember how I was talking with G-D-G about getting the suppositions of open view theists to see their view from the inside? Remember how I said that I'd tried everything to get them? Well, I thought of another idea. Role playing. I figured that I would role play an open view theist qua Boyd's paradigm. In doing this, I would literally immerse myself in what I understood to be the open view. In that state of immersion, I would state what I believed and why. Following this, I asked the question about my beliefs. Like were they true to open view theism. I wanted to do this for three reasons:
1) To clarify my understanding of open view theism via the comments and suggestions made to my role play.
2) Demonstrate that I had a considerable, though incomplete, understanding of open view theism as YOU see it.
3) Show that perhaps the premises of open view theism, upon which I base my argumentation against it, are accurate and that my arguments may pack much more punch then they are getting credit for.
I must say, Shine, I am sorry. I TRULY didn't intend for anyone to believe this. I figured that my tone was sufficiently facetious and the contrast with earlier posts that day so great, that everyone would realize that I was role playing. Obviously, I was mistaken. I'm sorry if you felt like I was playing with your emotions. I assure you that that wasn't my purpose at all. NOR was it to make fun of open view theists.
I repeat, this was NOT to make FUN of OPEN VIEW THEISTS!!!!
I trust that you see this is the case. You said a lot of good things about me and I really appreciate them all. I pray that this accidental incident hasn't diminished too much of your respect for me. I made a mistake and I'm sorry. I ask your forgiveness. Anyone else who was offended by this, I ask your forgiveness too I am asking, nay, BEGGING that we don't let hurt emotions or things like that get in the way of what I was trying to accomplish here. Again, the main attempt was merely a perception check of MY understanding of open view theism. Again, my most ardent apologies for any and all inconvenience.
Apologetically yours,
Mephi2K
PS: How in the WORLD could such a potentially good idea go so friggin awry? Part of me STILL can't believe this...
PSS: Would anyone find it intolerable if I continued with the role play?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/06/01 10:29 PM
And You, G-D-G...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home girl,
I TRUST that you understand the purpose of this, along with my intentions. AND I trust that YOU have some insightful things to say about it. So please do. Critique as you will.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/06/01 10:44 PM
RE: Say it aint so, Joe!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi,
Well knock me over with a feather. You were being facetious? Really? You were being witty? You were so convincing. You articulated open theism beautifully, as if you were an open theist.
Scratching head,
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/06/01 11:09 PM
RE: And You, G-D-G...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meph, first the beautiful, yet quirky ship parable, and now the oh-so-open convert gag. You must be desperate--you're resorting to humor (you always had that one going for you), imagination, empathy, and genuine creativity to make your point. I'm proud of ya!
I'm dying to respond but I don't know where to begin....So as a recent convert to open theism, what part of your new understanding are you most excited about?
Still laughing, GDG
p.s. Shine, you don't need to hunt Mephi down, just send him a message that starts off something like this: "I've been converted. I have become a Classical Theist qua Mephi's rational demonstration of his presuppositions and Lion-Lamb's theology of language. These are my views of human existence with regard to reality, God and human choice...."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/06/01 11:25 PM
RE: Does it get any better?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to all!!! It was truly a kick reading this!
I haven't smiled this big all day. too funny.
Meph, I mean Sir Mephistopheles, that was grand. I'll be
reading that one again. You never cease to amaze me. I was
thinking it was going to be a long time before your longed
for presuppositions showed up, I guess you got tired of
waiting too. : )
Can't wait to see what the Ghost has got. Shine cracks me up.
later
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/07/01 12:54 AM
RE: Correct The Open View Convert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi2K: once a week, on Thursdays, at nine o'clock in the morning for an hour I volunteer at my daughter's 2nd grade class and about 10 til they get all wired up and are making no sense whatsoever and they're eating their snacks and making no sense whatsoever and I'm about to walk outside smell the fresh air so I kiss my daughter goodbye and 20 screaming kids run past me onto the playground, making no sense whatsoever, and there is such joy in their faces and as I watch them I come to realize that they are so much more important than anything I will ever say or write and, you know, God is good, and I thought your tongue in cheek story was quite offensive but, you know, it doesn't really matter because the kids are in bed now and tomorrow, God will love me and so will my kids, but sometimes, I've noticed, the more one writes the less one actually says, so I think I'll go make my daughter's lunch for tomorrow, try not to do that and leave you to your hahahahas...pleasant dreams all...Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/07/01 7:19 AM
Hail, Citizens!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Say, citizens,
I just thought of something. Though Shine may have been a tad TOO convinced I was an open theist, (again, man, sorry about that) it strikes me as how much he resonated with everything I said. From what I gathered, my current summation of my open view beliefs were right on point, according to Shine. I mean, before my position was quite indefensible, but my current position seems not only plausible but darn near EXACTLY what an openness person should say, at least according to Shine. Should I take that as an indication that my thoughts about open view theism qua Boyd's view are pretty accurate? Well, now...
"Openly" Thoughtful,
Mephi2K
PS: By the way, G-D-G, I'm quite interested and excited about my new concept of Freedom. (It's so...liberating...) Do you think it's accurate? How well does it jive with your concept?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
02/07/01 7:28 AM
RE: Hail, Citizens!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi,
You nailed OV as I understand it. Let's have a OV to classical convert write their story.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 9:03 AM
yes, let's
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good call, don. I hope that shine will do it. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 9:53 AM
Mephi, I always wanted to teach you a lesson or two...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi, before you start singing the praises of the open view to your classical buddies, let me be the Priscilla to your Apollos.
You used to believe that the combination of factors involved in a particular decision yielded a single effect. The thing that was not helpful about this belief was how reductive it was. The thing that was helpful about it, that you don't need to discard now that you have been "liberated" is that choices are not made in a vaccum--their contexts (both intrinsic and extrinsic) constrain and influence their outcome. Remember how you used to think that it was either your reductive idea of the human will, or random, ex nihilo, absurd actions? Well, the limits of our contexts ensure the continuity of our activity in creation. You said, "This means that I cannot be bound by anything ultimately save my own will in making a choice." This is going too far again. If this were the case, then everything would be effects without any causes, which is absurd. While we have the capacity to make some things happen according to our own wills, many things happen to us against or in spite of our wills. These are the things that form the context of our freedom.
You also said, "This freedom CANNOT be taken away under any circumstances, because to do so would render any agent who has had their freedom taken away without responsibility for any and all actions they may take." Freedom can be revoked. Think about the parable of the talents. The servants were held responsible for how they invested the capital their master trusted them with. If you invest well, you will be trusted with more. If you invest poorly, even what you have will be taken away. So for example, people who increasingly use their freedom for evil eventually lose the capacity to do otherwise. (This is how doc explains predestined wicked acts.) Pharaoh might be an example of this. (I know you prefer rational demonstration, but I'm much more fluent in story language, and that's why I'm lapsing into biblical examples. Sorry.)
I think that's enough for now. I'm sure you'll have some questions for me. If not, I will move on to your understanding of the implications of your new found freedom.
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/07/01 10:36 AM
Who's Teaching Whom?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting...
You said:
"You [Mephi] said, "This means that I cannot be bound by anything ultimately save my own will in making a choice." This is going too far again. If this were the case, then everything would be effects without any causes, which is absurd. While we have the capacity to make some things happen according to our own wills, many things happen to us against or in spite of our wills. These are the things that form the context of our freedom."
Mephi:
Hmmm...didn't I say EXACTLY what you've been telling me for a while now?
My quote:
"Though they may be conditioned by other factors, I have the ultimate say-so."
and again,
"In other words, in some mysterious manner, my free will interacts with all the other influences, with my will as the primary actor, such that all decisions are genuinely my decisions.
Mephi:
I think you may have read way too much into the "ultimately" Basically, I was saying almost EXACTLY what I've heard being said here on this board. That even though all the other factors INFLUENCE us, it is ultimately our WILLS and the exercise of those wills that have the deciding punch. Thus we are influenced, but NOT DETERMINED by our internal and external factors. This is definitely not the same thing as AUTONOMOUS free will that I was talking about before. Now... where was I off again? LOL
You also said:
"Freedom can be revoked."
Mephi:
Quote from Dr. Boyd from the "Six Theses" page:
"5. Power to Influence is Irrevocable | Genuine freedom must be irrevocable. If it can be revoked, creatures cannot be held responsible for their use of it, nor can they fully realize their potential for love. Within the parameters of the freedom God gives creatures, God must tolerate evil. Since God is omnipotent, he is able to accomplish his will within these parameters without compromising his own integrity or limiting the potential of his creatures by revoking their freedom."
Hmmm...seems like I'm right on par with open view theism qua Boyd's view to me... I'm being VERY consistent, don't you think?
Waiting to hear more from Priscilla,
Mephi2K
PS: I refuse to believe that I, a new open theist, know more about open view theism than established open view theists. So, let's keep at this...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/07/01 10:41 AM
Meph is a shmuck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
egg on face. i suspected it was too good to be true. but i hoped. dang!!! fooled me Lion. nice one dude. i really thought it might be real -- "you saw the light." stranger things have happened. but alas, schmuck head! i'm renaming you Mephijerkoles.
three things suckered me. a) it always struck me as odd that a person with your brain power holds on to and defends an indefensible position. you ought to be an open theist. b) i was so excited, i didn't read your piece carefully enough. i might have noticed that the turn-around was too perfect. and c) i couldn't believe anyone would be such a heel.(: you proved me wrong, Mephijerkoles.
but i, i am a wonderful Christian dude, so i won't hunt you down and waste you. (i got huge pipes!) i will rather forgive you. schmuckhead. in fact, i confess i'm impressed. i'm disappointed your still confused, but love your schumucky style. rock on. one point for you. people on this discussion board sometimes take themselves too seriously. good to see some "bust your chops" humor.
schmuck.
you wait/.
now ghost girl, whose brain i'm infatuated with, wants me to reverse the favor and do a classical theology conversion. well... give me a bit to get over my depression that Meph is still confused.
i'll be back, "seeing the light" from the classical perspective.
till then
my heart has been slightly wounded,
my light has been slightly dimmed
but i still shine at 149.
my
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/07/01 10:47 AM
Shmuck?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Um, I don't think I'm going to directly reply to this "shmuck" thing. But I think I will let any OTHER people who find this little statement interesting say a few words. Once again, sorry, Shine.
Mephi2K, the New Open Theist
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 10:52 AM
Freedom: Revocable or Irrevocable?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freedom IS NOT revocable in the sense that God never determines our actions in ways that contradict our self-determined characters. But freedom MIGHT BE revocable in the sense that over time we may self-determine our characters to the point that we no longer have the capacity to do otherwise. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
02/07/01 12:21 PM
Mephi & GDG--two confused OTs asking for clarification
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh...doc...modes...help me out on this one. I'm sure I have it down quite right. GDG
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