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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/26/2001 6:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | Proverbs23_23
11/16/00 8:06 AM
Do You Think The Open View is Divisive to The Body of Christ?
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In reading up on this subject, I've seen strong views, debate, and even some name calling (ie heretic)
I wonder if we can pause and look behind the 'View' at the motive of the heart? All sides care to comment?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
NaveySealed
11/16/00 8:58 AM
Calvinist Philosophy is What's Divisive
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No. All the divisiveness that I've seen has come from the Calvinists/Determinists. The president of Westminster went beyond the charge of heresy saying that those who hold to the open view are not even Christians
I think the source of divisiveness is not the open view, but the perverse philosophy that Calvinists hold to. A philosophy that makes God incapable of loving or being loved and which at its very core is contrary to so much of the Bible (Gen 6:5-7; Ex 32:9-14; Is 38:1-8; Jer 3:6-7; 18:1-11; Joel 2:13-14; Luke 13:6-9; Acts 3:19-26; 2 Pet 3:9).
Sealed
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
BBBCanada
11/16/00 3:38 PM
RE: Calvinist Philosophy is What's Divisive
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I think it depends on the way you look at it. For example, the predominant view is the Calvinist view. Anything that comes by that is going to question it or cause ripples is going to be controversial and potentially looked at as divisive. But making statements such as saying that those who hold to the open view are not Christians is inflamatory and divisive. I think it is a narrow view of spirituality. What do you think?
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
11/16/00 3:47 PM
caricatures and cheap shots are what's divisive
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Thanks for your question, Proverbs 23_23. I think that whether we're open theists, calvinists, or whatever, as long as we're human, we're all capable of divisive attitudes and actions toward one another. We are also capabale (by the grace of God) of uplifting and edifying one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, the Bible clearly commands us to pursue unity and condemns divisiveness.
I think it is very important to keep checking our heart motives as we discuss theological issues. Here are some ways I try to do this:
1) Pray. Ask God for help and be sensitive to the Lord's leading.
2) Remember all that brothers and sisters in Christ have in common in spite of ways we may disagree (i.e. the kerygma passed on to believers in 1 Cor. 15:1-11). Make a list. It really puts things in perspective.
3) Here's a thought: instead of just using the Bible against each other, let's hear what it has to say about how we ought to treat each other.
4) Have a sense of humor. We tend to take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes.
I personally have had some heated debates with anti-open view brothers and sisters in Christ, but I've also had some very healthy ones in which we were mutually edified in spite of our disagreements. Challenges need not be responded to as threats, even if that was the intent.
Peace, ghost-dog-girl
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
11/16/00 4:13 PM
let's be cool to calvinists
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NaveySealed, It's sad but true that some very conservative Calvinists question open theists' salvation, but these people probably have the same opinion about many other perspectives that differ from their own (i.e. I've been amazed by the number of people who believe you can't be a Christian and a democrat. Oh yeah, watch me!). Calvinist philosophy is much bigger than this small slice, however, and there are representatives ranging from fundamentalist to mainline. I think this is true of the open view as well, although we have fewer representatives (so far...). Also, no "Calvinist" would be okay with how you have characterized their view (i.e. that God is not cabable of loving or being loved). Let's be cool to each other, K? g-d-g
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
web-head
11/17/00 8:46 AM
RE: Do You Think The Open View is Divisive to The Body of Christ?
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No, OT is not divisive to the body of Christ. It does appear to be, but when you really think about it, it's the people that are divisive, not the theology.
OT doesn't explicitly state that Calvanism is wrong. It just share's it's view.
Why am I splitting hairs? Because I wouldn't want people to judge OT on a superficial basis such as:
"look at it's merits, it's caused division w/in the body. It must be bad."
I know it sounds silly for me to be so persnickity, but I actually know people who have reasoned it this way. Under this logig, Had I lived in Luther's time, I would've had to count him a divisive heretic as well!
Again, I do not yet consider myself an OT'ist. But I think some people are reacting to the notion that Christians don't have to think exactly the same. (or vote for Bush the same) That gets my gander up honestly.
Here's my rant....
The Christian life is not a formula, paint by the numbers life. We can read scripture, but we still don't know everything about God. However, I have observed that many American Culture Christians approach Jesus with a western/consumerist mindset.
The science of how to have a happy, successful life leads to taking Christianity on the following terms:
Don't sin + pray a lot + go to church every Sunday + tithe regulary + go to biblestudy ever week + evangelize + take care of the poor = Happy successful life.
This formula sounds good but it's flawed in two ways.
1) This approach really puts the Believer in control of their life and actually requires less faith. Why? Because they follow the formula and expect, even demand the result - a Happy successful life
a) Where's the personal relationship with God in this? Now he's become a genie in a bottle to serve our whims because we did the magic formula!
1) Jesus never promised us a happy successful life if we followed him. He did promise a fulfilled life. We can still know him and be poor, diseased, crippled, with family and legal trouble.
So again my rant is that too many Christians in America want to be in control of their lives. In order to achieve this, they must simplify everything they can, into a "black/white" view. Evertyhing's either right or wrong. No middle ground. So in the area of theology/doctrine they simplify to the point where anyone who doesn't think/believe they way they do, is wrong.
To open their minds and look at scripture would lead to a crisis of faith because they cannot deal with the fact that life cannot be totally controled. It' just too scary.
These people are only momentarily delaying the inevitable. They will have a crisis of faith thrust upon them when some form of tragedy strikes them. The formula they've been living shouldn't allow for tragedy and that will rock their world.
I know because I used to be this kind of Christian. Jesus Broke me, and taugth me to have radical faith in him for life. Yes I have more uncertainty about my future, but I can rest confident that there will come a day when all sorrow, sickness and pain will be gone and I will be with Him forever! Inthe meantime I know I have someone to turn to who really understands me and comforts me.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
11/17/00 10:16 AM
Is Prayer the Answer?
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Great answers. All here is something that I honestly want to suggest. See what you guys think...
Why the heck don't we PRAY about this stuff? I was talking with a fellow student about this. There are SO many divisions in the body of Christ right now, especially among evangelicals. Concerned Christians vs Committed Christians. Cessationists vs Non-cessationists. Council for Biblical Equality vs Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Even PRO-Homosexuality Christians and ANTI-homosexuality Christians. ALL of these positions miraculously seem to come up with a DELUGE of exegetical evidence for there OWN sides which should "prove" to the other side that their view has validity. It should become very apparent that many times, when approaching the Bible, we just plain see what we WANT to see. The "sure" word of God on some issues suddenly becomes NOT so sure. There are so few theologians out there today that honestly deal with the aspect of their own moral inclinations or epistemological presuppositions based on said inclinations...
"Argument seldom convinces anyone contrary to his inclinations"
--Thomas Fuller (1654-1734)
One of my professors is in the Council of Biblical Equality and she was telling me about one of the meetings that she attended. I asked her honestly "Has there ever been a time of corporate prayer and worship between the CBE and the CBMW? Have they ever come together for a couple of days JUST to pray on these issues and worship God together?" With a very surprised look on her face, she said, "Well, now that I think about it...no, they've never done that." I was like well how about that? One of the simplest and most POWERFUL forces of unity on the planet, and it's been left untried by THEOLOGIANS and MINISTERS?? Sheesh...but this is not the only area. The more and more I look into these divisions, the less and less that I see corporate prayer and seeking the Lord posited as an option. How silly and asinine. One thing that ALL of these opponents would agree on is the power of prayer to change hearts and situations. You would have think they would have tried this idea FIRST.
I propose this for all parties concerned. (Listen up, Powers That Be...) We believe that God hears and answers prayer. We believe that God is a self-revealing God. We believe that God gives illumination upon his Holy Word via the action of the Holy Spirit. Given we believe all these things, why don't we have a PRAYER FEST. We organize the prayer fest (in prayer, of course ) for a specific length of time, at LEAST a couple of days. As we pray and prepare for the event, we actively decide to put down our respective agendas and qualms, and REALLY ask God to show us the truth concerning some of these issues. The prepatory prayer would help act functionally as an "epistemological certainty" diminisher. In the actual Prayer Fest, we make some statements of belief. We will stand together believing that:
1) God will honor our corporate repentance and arduous seeking of His will.
2) God will give us a spirit of love and respect for one another that we have never possessed before.
3) God, by His Holy Spirit, will show us to a high degree what HE wants us to believe on these issues.
Now, I know this seems agressive but what happened with Jacob with refusing to let go of the angel of the Lord until he was blessed...OR when the 120 stayed in the upper room expectant to get something from God that was promised to them...OR the place in Acts 4 when the frightened followers of Christ asked in expectancy for boldness and the place was shaken? In ALL of these cases, these people were HUNGRY for God and his revelatory actions on their behalf. I ask you, how bad do we want God and His truth? If we believe that the Holy Spirit really IS as powerful as we say He is, don't we think that, given our FULL openness and attention, that He can show us the areas of Scriptural truth that maybe we are ALL negecting?
I truly believe that if we should come together in one accord and say this:
"Lord, we're tired of the bickering. We're tired of the ad hominems. We're tired of the pride and sin. We're tired of the confusion. We are going to seek your face and pray together until You show us what you want us to see. We will not STOP until we've heard from you, Lord. We will not REST until we've purified our hearts before you. We will not QUIT until we see each other as You see us and love each other as You love us. We believe that you will honor this sincere worship and prayer to you."
You can't TELL me that God won't answer this prayer, in some way or fashion. You can't TELL me that cold hearts won't be broken, past hurts forgiven, and new friendships engendered. If the God we serve is anything like the Biblical God, then it MUST be so.
After Solomon's earnest prayer (2Chronicles 7:13-15):
"When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, {{{{{{if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.}}}}}}}}} Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place." (emphasis mine)
The Psalmist on God and humility (Psalm 51:17)
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."
Jesus's prayer about US (John 17:20-23)
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message {that's US}, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
Do we really believe this stuff or not? I think we do. But something very interesting was suggested to me by a friend of mine when I told them my idea. She said:
"Well, man. The thing is that it sounds just too much like right. For something like that to happen, people would have to really be open to the fact that they ain't right. How many of these scholars and people do you know who've spent their LIVES talking about a certain view will actually be willing to give it all up? It'll never happen."
"Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him."
--Proverbs 25:12
When she said that, I was stunned. Is this true? Is our hard fought scholarship and ideas so worthy that we cannot for a second abandon them to the possibility that they may be incorrect on a level that we cannot see? Are our hearts THAT self-deceived as to believe that? I, for one, hope not! When I spit this to people, I, most of the time, automatically get called an idealistic dreamer. LOL So be it. I believe that there is an emerging generation who IS down for mad prayer, and IS down just to see God gloried with no strings attached. Are you guys down?
Anyways, that's it in a nutshell. Sorry if this seems preachy or something, but this is a subject I'm very passionate about. Gotta go. Peace out..
Warmest regards,
Mephi2K
PS: Dr. Greg Boyd and John Piper are two of the most passionate, THEOcentric, Gospel preachers I've ever heard in my life. They both talk about worshipping and hungering for God like there's no tomorrow. Their love is God eminates readily from their sermons. Surely, the both of them would agree completely with what I'm saying here. Don't you think so, Doc?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
11/17/00 12:35 PM
RE: Is Prayer the Answer?
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Mephi2K said:
"In ALL of these cases, these people were HUNGRY for God and his revelatory actions on their behalf."
I like what Gordon Fee said in "God's Empowering Presence," He said, "The prayerless life is a life of practical atheism." Sometimes these oneliners do it for me. They are markers with which I gage myself by. While prayer may not change views on certain issues, it will definitely go a long way to changing heart attitudes and greater unity in the Body of Christ.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
11/18/00 12:26 AM
RE: Is Prayer the Answer?
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I think the idea of praying is so IMPORTANT! It is so easy to get into our judgmental states and stand firm on our own opinion BUT the Bible continually commands us to pray. Pray and ask God to BLESS those who we would perhaps be inclined to judge. I am one who stands in full agreement of holding a prayer fest! I want to quickly share something that was pointed out to me tonight. In Phillipians 1:18 it states: "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice..." The thing is whether we believe in the Open View or not, we stand in agreement on the salvation message, right!?! This acceptance of differences comes straight from the Word and that is good enough for me! I like the prayer fest idea.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
11/19/00 3:44 PM
RE: Is Prayer the Answer?
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Thank you all for your replies!! (Do ya like how I went incognito when posting the question....I wanted to ask with no 'view' attached )
*Mephi, Web-Head, GDG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HEARTS on this!!
Mephi, I think it is safe to say that we DO pray about our views. I don't see anyone in the room taking sides just to debate an issue. However, I DO agree that united (in prayer) we stand...divided we fall.
Prayer fest?.....ANYTIME!
*sparkle*
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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