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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:17 PM (GMT -6) |   |
03/05/01 3:17 PM
hard quote
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This past summer I came across this quote:
“If there is a God, he will have to beg for my forgiveness.”
--Written by a prisoner in Maulthausen concentration camp (Maulthausen, Austria) on a prison cell wall during Nazi rule
People who come out of extremely traumatic situations, ones in which many have prayed and prayed for intervention from God, seem justified in making statements like this. My question is this:
CAN YOU BLAME SOME PEOPLE FOR HATING GOD? Their anger directed at God SHOULD be directed at Satan, but I'm not going to blame them not thinking this thing thru theologically. Anyways, just wondering what people think.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
03/05/01 4:38 PM
hard quote indeed
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Excellent quote. Sometimes I feel the same way. But of course I’m a spoiled brat and he was a prisoner in a concentration camp. That makes all the difference in the world. Here are my thoughts, however.
Thought #1
God is love. “At the end of our lives we will be judged by love.” –St. John of the Cross. It seems to me that the only way that we could be in judgement of love is if we have loved more than we were loved. Somewhere there is a quote from Kierkegaard that says something like this - - - ‘how can you live knowing the terrible fact that you have not loved as much as you are loved? (poorly paraphrased)’ We are in a radical asymmetric relationship to the world. This asymmetry sets up an economic relationship of debt to the Other. We are owed nothing, we owe everything. Of course this is once again coming from a spoiled brat. The trouble is I cannot conceive of a situation where I had suffered so much where this would cease to be the case. I have no rights to myself. Only the other has any rights, any privilege.
Check out the ethics of hospitality, asymmetry and radical passivity of Emmanuel Levinas. Levinas is a Jewish, Lithuanian born French philosopher who wrote a ton about ethics after the Holocaust. He often brings in a Jewish perspective.
Thought #2
I cannot for the life of me love God the Father. Maybe someday. However, I can love (not without shame for the asymmetry of it) Jesus. If I look to a God in a palace I can look down my nose in judgement. How can I look up to Jesus on the cross and judge him? Could I ever? Even if I was in a concentration camp could I judge Jesus on the cross? Could I look to him in the midst of his suffering and say ‘YOU! YOU must beg ME for forgiveness’? It would take more guts than I have.
–Wislawa (who has too much guts to speak out of warmth and comfort about such things, don’t listen to a word he says, he has no right to speak on such matters.)
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
BBBCanada
03/05/01 5:01 PM
RE: hard quote
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Here’s another quote that might be more in line with “Thought #2” in Wislawa’s post. When I was in Bible school, one prof said:
“You may have heard Billy Graham say, ‘If God doesn’t judge San Francisco, he is *going to have to* apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.’ Well, let me say that God doesn’t have to apologize to anyone.”
As much as I agree with “Thought #2,” which is totally, in the end God is still a righteous judge and you are right whasssuuuppp, they have not thought it through theologically, for then, they would not mis-place their blame.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
03/05/01 5:38 PM
RE: RE: hard quote
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Wislawa, you say you can love Jesus, but not God the Father. My friend, you need some work on your trinitarian doctrine. In Jn 14:8-10 Jesus told Philip, "If you see ME you see the FATHER. Why then do you ask, 'Show me the Father'"? The only "Father" we know is the one revealed in and through his Son. To love the one is to love the other.
I wonder if you draw a logical conclusion from a classical view of the Father (viz. you've concluded that he is behind the terrible stuff of the world) and you logically contrast him with your view of Jesus (viz. he loves the world and dies for it).
Think about it.
Blessings
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
03/05/01 6:31 PM
Jesus & Yahweh
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There is something I’ve never understood about the whole ‘You see me you see the Father’ business but I don’t know if I can express it. I can see Jesus—isn’t that enough? The Father doesn’t seem necessary (woops I think I just set off the heretic alarm) if he can’t add anything to the picture of Jesus. If what we get in Jesus is all that we can know of the Father than why not just interact with Jesus? I’m not saying that I don’t believe in the Father or anything, I mean I think that He’s there and all. It’s just that the distinction between Jesus and Yahweh seems to disappear (not theologically but in terms of practical relationship) to the point where…shoot (oops I mean sh**t for those afraid of ‘post-conservative’ vulgarity) I don’t know how to say what I’m trying to say. Can anyone help me say it? Can anyone pick up on what I’m laying down?
Trust me I’m orthodox when it comes to all the Trinitarian stuff at the ‘head deep’ level but most of it doesn’t have much cash value on the black market ‘life deep’ level where I have to deal with the suffering of innocents and the suffering of Innocence Himself.
–Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Mephi2K
03/05/01 8:58 PM
Idolatrous Quote...grrrr....
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God owes NO one anything. He is God. I don't care what pain, anguish, or whatever they go through. No one is justified in asking God to beg forgiveness. No one. I realize that, sometimes pain can make us say some stupid things...but...if ANY person actually and TRULY believes that God is accountable to humanity in such a way, let him or her be friggin ANATHEMA. Understand me. I can understand many people being angry with God. That's cool. But God is NOT to be defied or maligned in such a way. Ever. So, no, I cannot blame some people for hating God, but they DARN well better respect Him!
That's my word.
On The Real,
Meph
PS:
Oops...almost forgot...
Soli Deo Gloria!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
03/05/01 10:20 PM
Authentic, not Idolitrous
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Don’t take this the wrong way…you’re entitled to your opinion and all but…
Sounds mighty insensitive especially from someone who I’m assuming has no comparable experience.
If God is who he says He is than I think He might forgive, or at least understand human disrespect of the divine. After all He treats us worse than we treat are lawns (props to St. Anne Dillard at this point).
I’m assuming that you don’t feel God was disrespected in anyway by all of the angry and downright bitter prayers recorded in the Bible. Are the lament Psalms disrespectful? I doubt God would include them if He was the kind of God who got his divine undies in a bunch over such bad press and attacks on His judgement. This quote expresses the same frustration in a modern idiom with a God whose risks don’t always pan out. Sure He retaliates a bit in Job. It seems that misunderstanding is the sing of a relationship that is alive. It’s bound to happen sometime. If we were not allowed to misunderstand, get angry, pout, whine, rage, it wouldn’t be an authentic relationship. You said it strait when you charged this tortured man with idolatry. If I may beg your indulgence I would like to say it strait as well. The attitude expressed in your last post robs humans and God of their authenticity. I’m all for fear of the Lord and everything (yeah Tozer!) but there comes a point where suffering makes one bold. “Wipe you’re a** with the Mona Lisa, at least then God will know you exist” (props to fight club here). Respect and fear of the Lord can only be understood and practiced authentically when disrespect and even hatred are authentic possibilities.
Again, don’t take this the wrong way. I sense we may both have conviction on this point.
–Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Mephi2K
03/05/01 10:48 PM
For the Sake of Clarification
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Wislawa said:
"I’m assuming that you don’t feel God was disrespected in anyway by all of the angry and downright bitter prayers recorded in the Bible. Are the lament Psalms disrespectful? I doubt God would include them if He was the kind of God who got his divine undies in a bunch over such bad press and attacks on His judgement. This quote expresses the same frustration in a modern idiom with a God whose risks don’t always pan out. Sure He retaliates a bit in Job. It seems that misunderstanding is the sing of a relationship that is alive. It’s bound to happen sometime. If we were not allowed to misunderstand, get angry, pout, whine, rage, it wouldn’t be an authentic relationship."
To be sure, I agree with being able to express anger at God. The Psalms testify to this. I'd be completely silly to say that expressing anger, frustration, and such at God isn't allowable. Remember in my former post when I said that I honestly had some cussin' matches with God? I understand exactly what you are talking about authenticity before God. I think one can't truly be a person of faith without such authenticity. I lauded Job for his, on a post long ago. I tried to make sufficiently plain that that wasn't what I was so ticked at. It was the statement itself. In human relationships, there are emotions and sometimes, in our relationship, we say some things that we SHOULDN'T say because of our emotions. This, in and of itself, is ok. As long as we recognize and apologize for the stupid statements afterwards! We can understand our emotions as being justifiable while, at the same time, recognize some of our ACTIONS and STATMENTS as being less than justifiable. That's why I ended up saying that some people couldn't be faulted for hating God, given certain circumstances. Note I said:
"I realize that, sometimes pain can make us say some stupid things...but..."
This is what I meant by this terse statement. What I said next was this...:
"if ANY person actually and TRULY believes that God is accountable to humanity in such a way, let him or her be friggin ANATHEMA."
Note the emphases. I meant that if any person TRULY believes that God "owes" humanity anything and is accountable such that God needs to justify his actions to us, then they are to be considered anathema. There's a difference between saying this in the heat of the existential moment of pain...and actually BELIEVING this to be true as a fundamental truth. I was dealing with the latter case. So again, this had nothing to do with human emotion and expression of that emotion PER SE. It had to deal with a faulty and, I believe, idolatrous statement itself that expresses nothing short of the denial of the lordship of God.
There was no offense taken, Wislawa. I appreciate the honesty and I really appreciate your nice approach to me. I do have some conviction about this...probably because I hear so much of this from some arrogant atheists and agnostics. "If God does exist, then he owes humanity a BIG apology. He owes us BIG time" and stuff like that. It ticks me off to NO end now... As I've said before, God needs no justification. He's big enough to handle his own battles. But as far as I'm concerned statements like the one highlighted are the ANTITHESIS of submission to God's authority and lordship. Just my opinion.
Always in Christ,
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
03/06/01 3:40 AM
RE: RE: RE: hard quote
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Doc-
I have a friend here in Beirut who recently came through several experiences which together revealed God's love for him in a new and vibrant way. For years he failed to grasp the "father heart of God" (that God is a loving Father and that this love is his in Christ). Anyhow, he has been reevaluating his entire theology in light of his new found understanding of God. Here's one item he mentioned to me:
"God the Father could not have been incarnated. Only God the Son could have."
He asked me what I thought. I said, "Fine, as long as you don't post a metaphysical distinction between Father and Son." He said, "It has to be metaphysical." I'm following it up. Maybe I'm wrong.
What of it? Does the Orthodox Trinitarian view post "metaphysical distinctions" between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
03/06/01 11:34 AM
RE: Jesus & Yahweh
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Jesus brings God to human flesh but Jesus is not the completeness of God. Jesus did everything that he did because he saw what the Father was doing. How can one love Jesus and not want the Father also? The Father was Jesus' sole reason for doing what he did (he did things to please the Father). I don't think one can honestly say they understand (or are orthodox) about the Trinity and yet not fully desire the Father (though I understand certain people have problems with the concept of Father). We are not called just to interact with Jesus. We are called to the Father through the forgivness of the son by the power of the Holy Spirit. Everything Jesus did was for the glory of the Father. You cannot divorce Jesus from his Father, nor put the Trinity into compartments just because one may seem more appealing. I do agree with Greg's view. I think you need some work on your view of the Trinity. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
03/06/01 11:43 AM
RE: Idolatrous Quote...grrrr....
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While I understand your sentiment, many of the lament psalms would seem disrespectful in your view. I think God is big enough to understand when people are using words to cry out in anguish and when they are truly rebellious of him. I don't think he needs our help in that catagory.
An example from my own life: a couple of friends of mine went through some hellish times where they screamed at God, were mad at him, believed truly that he had abandoned them and never wanted to see him again. During that time, I said little and, eventually, they came to the place of being reconciled to God. Later, both, seperately, told me that the comfort I provided was pivotal because I didn't say anything and allowed them to vent their pain. Many times, people need that space and God allows it to them. Does God owe us anything. Perhaps not. But that is not the point. He has decided that he WILL give us his love. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
03/06/01 8:51 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: hard quote
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Yo TGB,
Your friend offered the quote: "God the Father could not have been incarnated. Only God the Son could have." I'm not sure why he found it so liberating. It is the view of Karl Rahner and a number of other theologians (esp. Ebhardt Jungel). In any event, the distinction between the three persons IS metaphysical. To deny this is to say they are merely epistemological, which lands you in modalism. The debate of the centuries has been, in what do the metaphysical distinctions consist?
Good luck on THAT one.
Whatever the answer, I don't grasp how it can be life changing. But praise God if it is -- for the better.
Blessings
GB
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