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Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 12:32 PM (GMT -6) |   |
pneumatika
04/20/01 11:59 AM
Is "nudging" partial-determinism?
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Dr. Boyd has said that God nudges things to happen a certain way at certain times. I understand that the occasional "nudging" of God is well within classical free will theism (the Open View).
It appears to me that "nudging" is inescapably partial determinism. In order for God to nudge anything to happen a certain way, He must occasionaly (if not more often) be violating man's liberterian free will.
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/20/01 12:04 PM
What do we have if we have partial-determinism?
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If the OV includes partial determinism, what conclusions does this mean?
If the classical Arminian position of foreknowledge entails a form of determinism (as the Mighty Mephi has argued), and is therefore rejected by classical free will theists (OV) as inconsistent, where does this leave the OV?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/20/01 12:07 PM
Whence determinism?
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Has anyone successfully refuted the Mighty Mephi that the OV must be entirely indeterministic to be consistent with itself?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/20/01 12:09 PM
Wince determinism?
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While I'm asking all the questions.....
Why is determinism so evil, anyway?
Without determinism of some form, do we not philosophically resemble process theism?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
04/20/01 12:16 PM
RE: Is "nudging" partial-determinism?
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I would say that "nudging" still qualifies as compulsion via influence rather than compulsion via coercion, as long as the nudging remains in some sense resistable. But I'm not sure I know quite what you mean by "nudging." Some examples would be helpful. And what is "partial-determinism"? I have no problem with partial determinism--exhaustive determinism is another matter. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
04/20/01 12:25 PM
RE: Wince determinism?
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I thought OVers say that most things in life are determined, but not necessarily "from before the foundations of the world." They simply maintain that in order for love to be a genuine possibility, there must be freedom, and in order for there to be freedom, some things in life must be open for creatures to determine themselves. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
04/20/01 12:41 PM
To Brother Pneumatika, With Love
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Pneumatika,
Hey, man! Two things. First of all, about the omnibenevolence thing. To be honest, I personally don't know of any classical theists that deal extensively with the subject, as in having substantive works on it. Most of the works like that I have seen are from decidedly NON-classicalist perpespectives. Maybe someone else will. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Secondly, I'd like to ask you a favor...and please don't take this in any way wrong. I'd ask you to refrain from calling me "the Mighty Mephi." I appreciate the accolade and I do understand the intent in which it's given, but there are probably too many people who come here who think I'm arrogant and big-headed as it is. I want to try to stem this thinking in every way possible. Correspondingly, I don't want people thinking that I need my ego stroked. Again, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way. I really do appreciate your vote of confidence. Honestly. I just hope that you can understand my reasoning for this request.
Thanks for everything!
In Christ,
Mephistopheles 2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/20/01 1:44 PM
OV and determinism
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GDG,
Being realatively new to the concepts of OV, could you explain or tell me where I can learn of how the OV does define determinism? I am especially interested in a biblical defense of "influence" over "coercion" as the pattern of classical free will theistic determinism.
Thanks,
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/20/01 1:49 PM
RE: To Brother Pneumatika, With Love
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Meph,
I really want to be witty and say start calling you TDBF (That Dang Brazen Fella--from Doc's colleagues' response), but I fear you might take it the wrong way. I will make every effort to never refer to you as the "Mighty Mephi" anymore.
In all love and with the finest of intentions,
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
04/20/01 2:03 PM
TDBF Loves Good Wit! Sweet...
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L O L
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
04/20/01 4:35 PM
RE: OV and determinism
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Pneumatika guy says: could you explain or tell me where I can learn of how the OV does define determinism?
GDG says: I don't want to speak for all OVers here, but I guess I think of determinism in terms of actualization. So the question becomes: Is God the only explanation for what gets actualized and what does not, or is it ok with God if there are other explanations too? If God permits creatures to actualize some aspects of reality, then I would say that creatures are in some sense self-determining, and therefore morally responsible and having the capacity for love. (Openness friends: if I am way off here, I hope that one of you will straighten me out.)
Pneumatika guy says: I am especially interested in a biblical defense of "influence" over "coercion" as the pattern of classical free will theistic determinism.
GDG says: I'm not sure how interested biblical authors are in construing God's agency as either influential or coercive with regard to human free will. However, I do think biblical authors are very interested in right relationship with others and with God, and I think an influential understanding of God's agency is more relational, and therefore more faithful to this pervasive biblical theme.
Blessings,
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Newcomb
04/20/01 7:08 PM
Saul's free will vs God's free will
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OK, so Saul has determined he will go to Damascus and kill some Christians. God determines he likes this guy's spunk, but he is pointing it in the wrong direction, so he knocks Saul off his horse and blinds him.
Do you call that determinISM?
Don't think so.
Free wills determine what they want to happen. God has the power to make them happen regardless. We don't.
It isn't determinism, it is free will and power to accomplish your will. God has
All Power
we don't.
Determinism says that God at some time in the past determine the outcomes of things. I think he has limited his involvement considerably to allow us freedom. He has, at times, expressed his sorrow for this and the outcomes that resulted.
"Neuk'em"
Hey, HTML tags do work
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/21/01 1:09 AM
RE: Is "nudging" partial-determinism?
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I don't see nudging as violating man's liberterian freewill but rather I think of the word "TO WOO" -- to seek to gain or bring about -- which is what God is trying to do without violating our freewill.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/21/01 7:01 AM
RE: Wince determinism?
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Personally, I have always viewed free will within the context of who we are (for instance, I cannot choice to fly, I cannot to be anything other than who I am, I did not choose where I would be born). That is why I do not agree with Mephi view that the open view, to be, consistant, must have complete determinism. God sets the boundaries, God sets the rules. This is his game. And he has allowed other players to determine how the game goes.
As far as determinisn being do bad, depends on where or not you want to decide your own actions. But, it seems to me, that our judtice system to build on the fact that we hold people accountable BECAUSE we believe they could have chose differently.
As far as refuting Mephi's argument, I would choose a different way of stating it: Has Mephi truly proved his point? My answer would be now. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/21/01 7:03 AM
RE: RE: Wince determinism?
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Sorry, meant indeterminisn...hey, what do you expect for four in the morning? Complete prefection!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/21/01 7:04 AM
RE: RE: RE: Wince determinism?
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The ANSWER would be no...man, I AM having a bad spell day (hey, you should see my hair...)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
04/23/01 8:58 AM
RE: RE: Wince determinism?
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writerdad said: That is why I do not agree with Mephi view that the open view, to be, consistant, must have complete [in]determinism. God sets the boundaries, God sets the rules. This is his game. And he has allowed other players to determine how the game goes.
might-be-don: If God wishes to have a specific thing done by me, He can "make" it happen. He doesn't need my permission, or my cooperation. Generally He doesn't do this, but if it's necessary to His wishes, He does. I suppose, maybe, perhaps His grace can be resisted, but His power cannot.
The way I read Greg, God completely as a result of His own will can determine the actions of a free will person. But, doesn't do this all the time to everybody. I take it that all the OV'ers don't view it this way?
donn
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/23/01 11:59 AM
RE: RE: RE: Wince determinism?
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I agree with you that if God wanted someone to do something he could make them do it. But is there any evidence of this in scripture? I truly believe there is not. I do not believe God, who is called love would do such a thing, because it would override his respect for the persons he created. If, however, God did do such a thing, in fairness, I do not believe God would hold the person responsible for the actions God made him do, because it was not him, but God making him do it (which is different than us allowing God to work through us, because we are giving up our rights, not having them forcefully taken from us).
God doesn't need our permission, he wants it. Oh by the way, I cannot speak for Greg, but from his writings, I do not believe that is his view. God works THROUGH the free choices of people, but he does not determine the actions of free will persons. I believe that is more in line with Greg's view (I hope I am not misrepresenting you DOC). John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
04/23/01 12:59 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Wince determinism?
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Sure do wish this board had a search feature, unlike Mephi I can't remember where I read something yesterday, nevermind weeks ago.
I can't find the quote from Greg that led me there but from RevivalTheology in the "How does God answer prayer for one without altering the Free Will" thread:
What I wrote was "I don't believe God NEVER violates free will (except when it comes to salvation).
IOW, there may be times when God does over ride the free will of individuals at particular times in order to bring about His will when no other way might be possible. I believe this is rare, but is none the less possible.
Concerning scripture...
Keep in mind that God uses means to accomplish His goals. Do you think that God would have given up on Jonah's task if the whale hadn't accomplished the desired end. I don't think so. God wanted Jonah to do it. Fortunately Jonah woke up before it was his dead body in the streets of Ninvah scaring the jeebies out of the Ninvites.
I think I understand working through the free choices in the context of a partly open future, it's the partly determined side that gets dicey.
The high road is definitely when we lay aside our rights in favor of His.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/27/01 10:43 AM
Any evidence for OV being non-indeterministic?
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It seems that almost everyone here who is leaning towards OV is saying that they are not entirely indeterministic.
Has anyone dealt with Mephi's arguments to the contrary?
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