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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:49 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Christus Victor Ministries
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Tiggers
05/25/01 12:15 PM
Dr. Robert A. Morey & "Trinity and Process"
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Hey All,
I’m new to writing on this message board, but have periodically peeped in to follow the occasional scruff and dialog. Personally, I think this Web Site ROCKS and it gives me a chance to chill from all my wonderfully Reformed friends out here in the Boston area (e.g. G.C.T.S). Now, as I was taking a study break I came across the "Journal of Biblical Apologetics" by Christian Scholars Press. Within this journal I found a review from Dr. Robert A. Morey regarding Greg Boyd’s doctoral thesis from Princeton, "Trinity and Process." Now, I was wondering if ya’ll Christus Victor Ministries could enlighten me as to some of his assertions regarding Greg’s ministry, person, and theology.
Morey’s Assertions
1. “Boyd’s personal mentor was an antichrist by the name of Charles Hartshorne … (61)”
2. Regarding Morey’s book, Battle of the Gods, “I (Morey) sent Boyd a preview copy in the hope of converting him to Christ, but to no avail. He threatened to sue me if I printed it! (Letter on file.) I would have enjoyed going to trial, as it would make public what Boyd taught in secret. But his threats were as empty as his arguments” (61).
3. “Since that time, John Piper and many others have taken a refutation of Boyd’s heresies. Even his own denomination has finally condemned his theology. We were the first to sound the warning about Boyd and we are glad that so many people now see how dangerous his doctrines are” (61).
4. “The Campbellite movement of the 19th Century spawned many cults such as the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. That Boyd was a product of one of these cultic offsprings of Campbell is no surprise” (61).
Now, the assertions that attack Boyd can go on and on and on and on! They even attack his Christology as heretical, sheesh (see pg. 64)! Ok, since I’m a bit out of the loop here, for those who know him better than I, can you confirm any of this. Personally, I would love these hardcore Reformed folk to stop this nonsense and trash talk. Doesn’t anyone see the irony in the Christian Scholar’s Press printing such unscholarly, trash talking garbage? I think we should expect more from an academic journal…”A”?
Greg, I want you to know that God has truly used your ministry, both scholarly and pastoral, in my life. I have truly grown more confident in my faith, that is, lending reason to my faith (e.g. Letters from a Skeptic, God at War, Cynic Sage or Son of God, sermons on tape, etc.). So, I guess what I’m trying to say is thank you for helping me and my immediate, as well as, extended family grow in our relationship with the only wonderful triune God !
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
PS
Hey, “Christus Victor” I got your back in prayer, PEACE & LOL!!!
PSS
The journal I quoted from was,
Journal of Biblical Apologetics, Vol. 2, Nu. 1, book reviewed is “Trinity And Process” by Gregory A. Boyd, and reviewed by Dr. Robert A. Morey (Nevada: Christian Scholar’s Press, Inc., Spring 2001), 61-64.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/25/01 2:25 PM
RE: Dr. Robert A. Morey & "Trinity and Process"
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Tiggers-
I read on a post somewhere here recently that a chapter of Doc's thesis is available on-line. Doc, if you get around to answering Tiggers' questions, let me know if the chapter is available and where.
If the periodical article you refer to Tiggers is also on-line, let me know. Can't believe what he wrote!
Blessings,
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Tiggers
05/25/01 3:08 PM
RE: RE: Dr. Robert A. Morey & "Trinity and Process"
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TGB,
Hey, great to hear from ya, Tom! As far as, "a chapter of Doc's thesis online" goes, no clue. However, I know you can buy the thesis through amazon.com for around $60.00...OUCH! I think you should ask the Doc if you could trade your free copy of "Satan and the Problem of Evil" for "Trinity And Process" ! Now, with regards to the website, see www.faithdefenders.com, at least that is what the journal sites.
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
05/26/01 6:47 AM
The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Ah, my ol friend Dr. Robert Morey...
Want a little bit of fun history? Here's a very edited version of a very sad scenario.
About eight years ago I got word from a friend that a long letter was circulating that accused me of many heresies -- including *denying the deity of Christ; *denying the Trinity *being a process theologian * denying creation ex nihilo *being a liberal, pretending to be evangelical ... to name just a few. The letter supposedly contained many quotes from Trinity and Process. I was told it was written by Morey (whom I have never heard of).
The letter was sent to various Cult monitoring organizations, calling on them to stop selling another book of mine Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity. This letter was then followed by an even longer one and it was called a "Review." When I got a copy of this one I about died. It had, as I recall, over fifty quotes of "my position," taken from Trinity and PRocess, and all but a few of them were quotes of positions I was actually arguing against! Of the few that were actually representing "my positions," only ONE was not badly taken out of context.
I wrote and called Morey three times to explain to him that he had seriously misunderstood me. Around this time I was contacted by Hank Hanegraff of CRI in Califorinia who explained to me that this was actually an intentional distortion for the purpose of discreditong him. See, CRI sells many copies of Oneness Pentecostals and Morey wanted to show that CRI, under Hanegraffs leadership, was endorsing a heretic. Morey had wanted his position as president of CRI after Walter Martin died and was mad he didn't get it. He had tried a number of things -- nothing short of personal attacks -- to get Hanagraff removed. This was yet another. (This was my initiation into the beautiful world of Fundamentalist politics).
After consulting with Hanegraff, Bethel and Baker book (which published Oneness Pentecostals) I sent Morey a fourth letter, explaining that if he didn't desist from this onslaught I would consider legal action. I finally received a reply from him, and it asincredible. It was the single most arrogant nsulting pompous thing I've ever read in my life. It was laughable. It was also full of lies. For example, Morey claimed he sent me drafts of his "Review" for my feedback, but that I had arrogantly refused to respond. (Shortly after this he made this claim publically).
Well, to make a sad long story short, Morey soon published his official "Review" which was a revision and a softening of the first -- having taken out some (but not all) of the deceptive statements. I imagine its close to the one you read Tigger (Tigger, if you can believe that -- you're reading the softened version). Even so, Norman Geisler and Robert Bowman reviewed Morey's "Review and concluded it was unfounded. (Geisler's review of Trinity and PRocess was actually very fair and balanced.)
I stepped back, looked at the whole thing, and concluded "not worth the soul pollution I'd have to fight off if I were to stay in this fight." Yic Yic YIC!!! So, I walked away. More has followed, but I don't believe engaging in people of this sort is worth it.
Thanks for keeping me abreast Tigger.
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/26/01 8:16 AM
RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Dear Tigger and All,
I came across something interesting a long time ago. Just happened to scan the board today. What a coincidence. Anyways, maybe you didn't know, Doc, but CRI has placed one of your letters online. If anyone wants to see how bad Morey mistook Doc, check THIS WEBSITE. I read this and was disgusted. Seriously. Tiggers, you've got to read it. (I would have emailed this to you, but you didn't have one)
Lemme be honest, since I'm doing this. This is a significant part of the reason that I don't want to discuss this stuff anymore. The last incident strongly discouraged me. There's too much problem activity going on. I'm pretty fed up with the whole discussion, right now. Both sides. I'm reading books upon books on both sides...and I'm often sickened by some of the tones and implicit dissing I see. It's not that I don't find the subject VERY important. I truly do. There's just so much bad blood, it's nigh impossible to deal with just the issues without stepping on someone's toes. It's too much of an uphill battle, as I'm sure others can attest from their own experiences. In looking at Doc's reply to Morey, and Morey's asinine claims within, one can see a microcosmic view of what openness theologians in general have to put up with. I can really understand why some openness theologians would have major problems with "classicalists" who do stuff like that. To me, it just doesn't seem like we are ever going to get past this to get some of these hard feelings. Misunderstandings. Purposed misquotation. Political machinations. Vitrolic assertions. Ad hominems. It's just too much. Not everything has been bad, but the bad has been significant enough to cause one to want to get some perspective. Christian principles and qualities get so negated in these discussions. I sometimes genuinely wonder if theological relativity is not the solution. Live and let live.
I debated about whether to place this here, but if what I understand of Tigger's post is correct, and Morey's analysis was placed in a year 2000 publication, I feel it only correct that internet viewers see exactly how inept Morey's analysis actually is. Again, it's THIS WEBSITE
Regards,
Mephi2K
PS: Doc, I have something to ask you. If you would, could you please email me at your convenience. Thanks.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
05/26/01 12:06 PM
Hello Wonderful World
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Thanks for the sympathetic ear Mephi. And thanks for offering up my response. I completely forgot I had written that! I have seen alot of "Christian crap" the last few years, but I have to say that, with the exception of a death threat, nothing has surpassed this episode with Morey in terms of sheer ugliness. It was the grossest thing I've ever confronted.
But now about YOU Mephi. I agree that the tenor of so much of this debate has been less than God honoring. It has frequently gotten ad hominem. There has been intentional public distortions, caricatures, and the like (e.g. Gruenler's article in CT). I have been amazed at the level of animosity I have sometimes felt.
But if people like you opt out of the debate, Mephi, how will it ever change? Doesn't the recent Hall-Sanders dialogue in CT show that it is possible for classical theists to discuss this issue in a calm, godly way? While this board has gotten hot at times, hasn't it usually been (okay okay, at least HALF the time been) "respectfully energetic"? I totally understand your sentiment Meph. And, in fact, I have had to bow out of the public "discussion" for months at a time. To be honest, there are groups I won't discuss this with any longer because it gets too slimy. BUT we can't altogether desist from dialogue. THAT, my friend, is to surrender to hopeless.
Besides, if you opt out of respectful dialogue, Meph, how can I ever possibly convince you that your position is utterly stupid and that you are a total heretic/imbelicil who has severe moral problems in your personal life as is clear from the fact that you hold to such a obviously satanic belief system? hmmmm?
As you requested, I will contact you. You're probably going to repent and ask me for help getting over your sin, right?
gotta love me
gotta laugh at all this
otherwise one will suffer
from the cancer of reality-induced cynicism
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
05/26/01 2:24 PM
RE: Hello Wonderful World
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Is the Hall-Sanders dialogue on-line anywhere? Anyone know?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Tiggers
05/26/01 7:18 PM
RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Greg,
Thanks for the information, not that I believed that junk, even for a minute! Oh, by the way, thanks Memphi for the link to CRI, I just finished reading it! Well gotta jet...LOL!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
PS
Still praying !
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/27/01 1:01 AM
RE: RE: Hello Wonderful World
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Tom, yes it is. Off hand I do not know the exact address, but you can find it at Christianity today's website.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Dr_Morey
05/27/01 4:03 PM
RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Dear Boyd,
1. I am surprised that you have yet to accept my challenge to do a public debate on the doctrines you set forth in your book, Trinity and Process, and in your other books. When I gave this challenge on KBRT in CA, you said you would debate me. I hope you will stop whining, become a man, and meet me on the field of battle and defend your god.
Note for Tiggers: When someone is not willing to defend his beliefs in public debate, you must ask, "Why? Does he have something to hide?"
2. I see from your note to Tiggers, that you are still using the same old tired ad hominem arguments to dismiss my exegetical arguments from Scripture. Is this the best you can do?
Note; It is easy to whine, "He took me out of context," and another thing to prove it. I challenge you to prove that I did take you out of context.
3. If Hank told you that I attacked you to get to him, he is more delusional than I thought. Since Walter Martin's family has gone on record stating that Walter did NOT chose Hank to be the Bible Answer Man ( http://www.waltermartin.com ), he has a lot to answer for.
4. Walter Martin wrote a recommendation to my book, Battle of the Gods, which is a detailed refutation of processianism and neo-processianism as well. Go to http://www.faithdefenders.com and get the book and see what Walter Martin, Jim Kennedy and John Ankerberg had to say about my book. Kennedy calls process theology, "neo-paganism." If, as you claim, Hank supports you and your book on the Trinity, then he has radically departed from Walter's theology.
4. By the way, why didn't you mention to Tiggers that once CRI read your book, Trinity and Process, they wrote an article in their Journal that said your views were "aberrational"?
5. Tiggers and others should not used second hand source materials to make up their minds if you are heretical. They should buy and read your book, Trinity and Process, and then buy my book, Battle of the Gods, and the review I wrote in the Journal of Biblical Apologetics. Everyone I know of who has done so, ended up on my side.
6. I am glad that you confirmed that you sent me notes warning me that if I reviewed your book, you would sue me. That an author would threaten to sue someone who reviewed his book is childish. If you don't want reviews, don't write books!
7. Lastly, I was amused when Hank and his staff, like the Passintinos, rushed to defend you. They later admitted that had NOT read your book on the Trinity!!! When I offered to lend them a copy of your book, they refused to read it! How can they defend a book they never read?
Note: To all Boydites: Don't defend Boyd's book, Trinity and Process, until you have read it.
Lastly, I am happy to be called a "Fundamentalist" by you. Evidentally, the word "Fundamentalist" is a slam word to you. But to me it is badge of honor. This also means you do not want to be included among those who hold to the fundamentals of the faith.
I hereby challenge you to debate the following propositions:
1. Are Boyd's beliefs set forth in Trinity and Process biblical?
2. Are Boyd's views set forth in Trinity and Process part of historic and creedal Christianity?
I will set up the debate in a public format with equal time given to both of us. This way you can exegetically and historically demonstrate that what you teach concerning God is found in Scripture and historic creedal Christianity.
Note: If you are afraid to debate me, ask Pinnock or any of your buddies to debate me. I am ready, willing and able to defend the gospel against your heresies.
Dr. Robert Morey
California Institute of Apologetics
PO Box 7447,
Orange CA 92863
1-800-41-TRUTH
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/27/01 5:44 PM
To Dr. Morey, With Utmost Respect and Love
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Dear Dr. Morey,
Hello. My name is Dwayne E. Polk II. I am a Christian and seminary student. I feel it my duty as your brother-in-Christ to be completely honest with you on this score. I am truly praying that you are NOT Dr. Robert Morey. I am praying that you are someone playing a very cruel joke on Dr. Morey trying to make him look bad in front of others. The reason that I am praying this is that the correspondence I just read showed very little Kingdom principles and VERY little leading of the Holy Spirit. The tone in the post was very brash, oppositional, and rude. Frankly, it's unbelievable to me that any Christian scholar would speak to anyone in such a way. The post exhibits many ad hominems and the like, even to the point of denouncing Dr. Boyd's manhood. Such things are surely above Christians, not to mention Christian SCHOLARS. I submit that great people such as yourself are definitively above such things.
If you have been reading this board for any length of time, you will note that I am not a proponent of open view theism. As a matter of fact, I am firmly against the view. I come against it fervently, and I believe that everyone here knows this. However, not once have I ever exhibited the sheer, raw antagonism that I've seen in this post. Not once. Mistakes have been made and forgiveness granted...on both sides. But never have I seen such outright malice in a posting. Part of me still refuses to believe that any Christian wrote the post in question. I wonder, sir, if you have taken the time to truly read your post for its tone and content. Perhaps you were unaware that it could be perceived as being so abrasive. Hopefully, this will give you some indication. As for the "Trinity and Process" book, I am more concerned at present with your treatment of Dr. Boyd and the rest of the board AS AUDIENCE, then I am with your disagreement with open view theism and Dr. Boyd's worldview.
Dr. Morey, I humbly ask that you make some sort of apology for the way that you have presented yourself here today. (If this is NOT Dr. Morey, I ask that you make your ruse known, as not to defame Dr. Morey.) I am sure that if some preliminary reconcilation is made that it would be much EASIER to get interaction with the people whom you question. I am no established scholar as you or Dr. Boyd, but I do look at the behavior of scholars such as yourself. I would ask that you present a good example for the next generation of up-and-coming theologians such as myself. I am sure that you can understand from whence I come. Please take this not as mere unbridled criticism, but as a genuine attempt at providing a means of decent, Christian interaction.
In Service to the King and In Hopes of Genuine Christian Love,
Dwayne E. Polk II aka Sir Mephistopheles 2K
PS: To the Room: I humbly ask that you show restraint and decorum in responding to Dr. Morey. Show your Christian maturity, love, patience, and respect. Please give me some hope that some proper discussion can genuinely take place even in the WORST of provocation. Please. I'm begging you...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/27/01 9:04 PM
RE: RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Mephi: thanks much for your wonderful letter. While we have disagreed on much, your grace has always shown through. Thanks for showing much needed intergity.
To Dr. Morey: I am curious: what was your point in writing? To protect your reputation or to protect the truth? Was any of what you wrote done in the name of Christian love? Perhaps you do not believe Doc Boyd (or Boyd in your view) is a Christian, but regardless Jesus' example was to show grace and love to all, even his enemies when he was continuely questioned by them. I agree with Mephi and hope that, upon rereading your post you would consider an apology for its confrontational attitude. I will be praying for you.
There are definitely reasons to sue someone if that person is misrepresenting another person and will not stop. Your point seems to be that it was simply because you wrote a review. I find that hard to believe, considering CRI wrote a review of "Trinity And Process" and Doc didn't threathen to sue them. He just wrote a response.
Finally, Doc Boyd doesn't believe in Process Theology. So while its great that Walter Martin loved your book and Kennedy calls process theology "neopaganism," it has nothing to do with Doc Boyd. His book critiques Process Theology, it doesn't condone it. Your statements truly makes me wonder if YOU read Trinity and Process. How someone who believes in the Trinity (as you claim to) can condemn a book such as Oneness Penecostals and The Holy Trinity is beyond belief to me. It was the first book I read that truly helped me to understand and conceptualize the Trinity.
I would add this: I do not know what why you feel so strongly about giving Doc Boyd grief. But if you feel he doesn't believe in the Trinity, prove it through his writings. I would like to see it. I've read him extensively. Please give FULL quotes as to why. Again, I will be praying for you. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
05/27/01 9:47 PM
RE: RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Dr. Morey: upon further reflection I wanted to add one more point: your use of the term "Boydites" is highly offensive. I do not know of anyone on this site who considers him (or her) self a follower of Gregory Boyd. Nor do I believe Doc Boyd would want us to be. He has continuely lifted up Jesus Christ as the way, the truth and the life. Those of us who believe in open theism believe in it because we believe it best represents how the Bible portrays God, not because we follow another person's belief system. I am sure you would not call those who believe what you teach in your books "Moreyites." I would suggest that when you disagree with others, do so in a way that is still respectful of them as persons. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
glamdring777
05/28/01 12:15 AM
RE: Dr. Robert A. Morey & "Trinity and Process"
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Dear Mephi and Writerdad,
Thank you so much. Once again you have stated elegantly the sentiments of the particpants of this forum. God bless you.
Morey,
Although this site is known for it's tolerance it has never allowed ANY party involved to be slandered or attacked. The style of your entrance here doesn't bode well for your longevity.
glamdring
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Dr_Morey
05/28/01 12:32 PM
RE: To Dr. Morey, With Utmost Respect and Love
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Polk,
I am sure that you would have written the same ad hominem letter to Elijah - after he mocked the false prophets on Mt. Carmel. Or to Jesus after he mocked the Pharisees in Matt. 23 or to Paul after he wrote the book of Galatians, or to Peter, Jude, etc.
You need to take Rom. 12:1-2 seriously and escape from the humanistic "Politically Correct" mindset. The world thinks that Christians should be "sweet & nice" and never judge anyone or anything. We should roll over and let the heretics kill the sheep. But this is not what God has called his servants to do.
I follow the Bible which says to admonish, rebuke, and reject heretics. I follow the example of the prophets, the apostles, Jesus, the Early Fathers, Athanasius, Augustine, the Reformers, Spurgeon, Walter Martin, etc. They all were accused of being harsh, unkind, etc. etc. etc.
My question to you, when were you accused of this? You need to remember Jesus' words, "Woe to you if everyone speaks well of you."
The issue is TRUTH, not personalities. If Boyd denies the fundamental truths of the Bible, we would be remiss not to give a clear trumpet blast to warn the people of God that a wolf in sheep's clothing is in their midst (I Cor. 14:8).
I believe that Boyd is a heretic. I have dealt with him for years. I kept all the letters that we sent to each other. I started out in a fatherly tone to help him see the error of his ways. He responded with threats to sue me! Paul said that after you have dealt with a heretic three times, from that point on, denounce him. This is what Paul did when he denounced people by name in his epistles.
I do not know who you are. But I do wonder WHY you did not attack Boyd for his "tone" or for his admitting that he threatened to sue us if we reviewed his book. Your silence about what Boyd wrote speaks volumes that you may actually be a Boydite pretending to be orthodox.
If you read my book, Battle of the Gods, you will find that Boyd's heresies have been condemned by church councils and by great evangelical leaders such as Machen. These scholars did not mence words or play games with heretics. They denouced them in the name of the Lord and warn the saints of these wolves.
Now, I recognize that most Christians have been neutered by the world and have become lap dogs. They tolerate sin and heresy to their shame (I Cor. 5:1-8).
We at the California Institute of Apologetics have had enough of "Evanjellyfish" Christians. They need a backbone transplant.
Luther said that if we fail to deal with those truths that are under attack from the devil and his crowd, we are disobeying Christ.
I doubt you have read Battle of the Gods, or Trinity and Process or the Journal of Biblical Apologetics. This is why you took the low road of character attacks.
We have issued a challenge for Boyd to defend his doctrines in a pulic debate. So far he has run from us. This alone should indicate something to you.
If I appear harsh to those who have been brainwashed by the world, so be it. Walter Martin was my friend for 27 yrs and he told me a long time ago that he learned to ignore all the personally attacks made against him. We must call evil "evil" and heresy "heresy" no matte who is offended by it.
Dr. Bob Morey
PO Box 7447
Orange, CA 92863
1-800-41-TRUTH
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Dr_Morey
05/28/01 1:20 PM
RE: RE: RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
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Dear Harold,
You asked in your note, "what was your point in writing?" This is a fair question. I was called by someone who visits your board from time to time and he said that Boyd had replied to my review of his book. I hoped that he was now ready to debate the doctrinal issues in public. But, alas, all he did was to take some cheap pot shots.
You also asked, "To protect your reputation or to protect the truth?"
My reputation is just fine and needs no protection. But Boyd has been condemned by his own denomination and by MANY scholars who join me in denouncing him as apostate.
About the old letter found in the CRI site. Ask yourself this question, "Why hasn't CRI updated the issue by posting its article that condemned Boyd's beliefs as aberrational? The CRI article actually confirms most of what I said in my review! At first CRI claimed that Boyd's theology was OK. Later, once they read the book, they changed their mind and condemned it as aberational. They have come over to my side. Have you read the article in their Journal?
You ask, "Perhaps you do not believe Doc Boyd (or Boyd in your view) is a Christian?" I do not believe that he or those like him are Christians in the biblical sense of the word. They are false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing. If this is our belief, we must act accordingly and warn the people of God.
You then reveal that you have not read the Bible too often when you said, "Jesus' example was to show grace and love to all, even his enemies" Surely you jest? Did his enemies enjoyed being beaten with a whip, their tables thrown over, and being denounced as thieves? Have you never read Matt. 23? Why do you think he was murdered? Read his words in Matt. 7 about false prophets.
If your "Jesus" is the typical liberal jesus who is good and kind and sweet to all, he would have never ended up on a cross! Who would crudify a sweet unoffensive guy? I fear you have "another Jesus" who is not like the Jesus of the Bible. Read by book, "The Trinity: Evidence and Issues." It is 600 pages of careful documentation and includes a refutation of process and neo=process views. Go to Amazon.com or to www.faithdefenders.com to get it.
Harold, you should not speak when you don't know what you are talking about. You said that my book, Battle of the Gdos, "has nothing to do with Doc Boyd." This demonstrates that you have not read my book. It is over 300 pages in length and deals with classical Processianism ala Whitehead, etc, and ALSO neo-processianism found in neo-evangelical circles such as Pinnock, etc. I document each charge.
So, yes I did in fact deal with the neo-processian views of Boyd. Please read the book before you make pronouncements about it. And, no, I have never claimed the Boyd bought into all of the processian heresy. He and others are neo-processians.
One other point, why do you assume that givng people a copy of the entire page from Boyd's book is not enough context? My original review included the full pages of all citations from his books. This is why many scholars had no problem agreeing with me that I WAS TAKING HIM IN CONTEXT.
The oldest logical fallacies is to assert, "He took me out of context." This trick means:
#1 you don't have to answer the arguments. Just dismiss them as "taken out of context."
#2 an ad hominem attack against the motives or character of the person questioning your beliefs. Thus you once again wiggle out of answering those who question your doctrines.
Harold, if you had read the Journal of Biblical Apologetics, you find a letter by Dr. Ehrenstine where he notes that he examined all the quotes I gave in my review and found them IN CONTEXT. Others did the same and agreed with my analysis of Boyd's heresies.
Lastly, I have never reviewed Boyd's book on Oneness Pentecostalism. It is not an issue here. If you have not read Boyd's Trinity and Process, you do not know why many of us feel that he is apostate. I hate to increase his sales, but each time someone reads his book, they join those of us who pray for Boyd's salvation.
Dr. Bob Morey
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Tiggers
05/28/01 4:01 PM
RE: To Dr. Morey, With Utmost Respect and Love
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi2K,
Bro, sorry for botching up your pseudonym in my last post and thanks for a sweet, well thought out response to Bob. God bless you and thanks for your awesome posts LOL !
Bob,
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control” (Gal. 5:22-23). Hmmmmmmmm...Does any of this sound familiar ?
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
05/28/01 4:35 PM
The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Morey said:
“Dear Boyd,
1. I am surprised that you have yet to accept my challenge to do a public debate on the doctrines you set forth in your book, Trinity and Process, and in your other books. When I gave this challenge on KBRT in CA, you said you would debate me. I hope you will stop whining, become a man, and meet me on the field of battle and defend your god.”
Hey there is no time like the present. That’s what I always say. That’s what the internet is for! Seriously, I have not read the article that Mephi put up? But from where I sit? You are very antagonistic in your approach from what I have read in your posts. I pretty much don’t have to read anything you wrote in order to give it much credence. The way to win us “open people” over to your views is to be less vindictive in your approach. Love the passion. Hate the tone. Comparatively, I sit here reading almost the difference between a Fred Phelps and a more kinder, gentler Jerry Falwell. Oh, and by the way, do not accuse me or anyone here for being such as you accuse Mephi down below. We are just as serious Christians as you are Doctor.
Of Mephi you say:
“ You need to take Rom. 12:1-2 seriously and escape from the humanistic "Politically Correct" mindset. The world thinks that Christians should be "sweet & nice" and never judge anyone or anything. We should roll over and let the heretics kill the sheep. But this is not what God has called his servants to do. I follow the Bible which says to admonish, rebuke, and reject heretics. I follow the example of the prophets, the apostles, Jesus, the Early Fathers, Athanasius, Augustine, the Reformers, Spurgeon, Walter Martin, etc. They all were accused of being harsh, unkind, etc. etc. etc.”
Huh??? You obviously have not been on this site very long. Mephi has been a more than ardent opponent of “Open Theism” showing some of the strengths and weaknesses of this particular brand of Christian theology. He is very critical of it. Has blatantly said he will never become an open theist for various reasons. There is no “sweet & nice” when it comes to espousing his views. He asks the hard questions that have made us all think. Guys like those mentioned above will always be accused of being harsh and unkind, simply because they stand for truth. Not so much because of attitude. There’s a difference. Seriously, if you want to get a hearing? Tone down on the attitude.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
05/28/01 6:37 PM
RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalist Politics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all who are interested in my beliefs, read Trinity and Process. For that matter, read Letters From a Skeptic, Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity or any of my other books, if your interested. My beliefs have always been out in the open for all to read and critique. This entire "lets sniff out the heretic hiding behind the mask of orthodoxy" schtick that Morey engages in is silly, undignifying, self-promoting and beneath further comment.
Well, one more comment. (: In point of fact, I love to debate. I do so publically with many people -- including many atheists, members of the Jesus Seminar, etc... But that is because I respect these people as scholars and colleagues. My past experience with Bob forced me to conclude that he does not have the character, truthfulness or scholarship that warrants serious discussion. I do not mean to be rude, but this present "discussion" called for it.
I cannot imagine a discussion less worth having than this one. Dealing in this type of discussion for too long isn't good for the soul, and is never profitable.
Doc
Ps. The possible lawsuit was suggested to me by legal council after reviewing the facts of the case. They deemed the level of deception involved in Morey's smear campaign obvious malice and liable. I judged the matter not worth the effort.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
DaveSherrill
05/28/01 7:45 PM
RE: The wonderful world of Fundamentalis t Theological Critique
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Doctor Boyd,
I'll take up your invitation and will purchase and read your "Trinity and Process". But I also plan on reading both sides of the story, which I believe is my duty to give the issues fair treatment. Certainly as a scholar you can appreciate such an approach. I hope you would not only appreciate such an approach, but that you would publicly encourage it among those who may presently hold to your views. "Truth has nothing to fear from error."
I realize that there are a wide range of people reading this that are sympathetic to your position. Among those people, some will be readers and some will not. Nevertheless, it seems to me that everyone interested in these issues should take the time and effort (yes-and money) to make themselves familiar with the varieties of viewpoints surrounding these issues.
Would you agree that it would be worthwhile for everyone involved to examine both sides of the coin?
Sincerely,
Dave Sherrill
jude3.net
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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