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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 4:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
Mephi2K
12/12/00 4:22 PM
Simply a Study Break Question
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Dear Room,
I have an honest question and I want honest answers, please.
Let's say that you died, and found your way before God. Here you are before the Lord of All. Let's say that at this time, you learned that God really DID predestinate everything according to his own will. A sample dialogue:
You: So, you did ALL things according to a definite plan, known only to you for your ultimate purposes?
God: Yes.
You: You mean the Fall and everything? You ultimately willed for Satan to betray you and deceive humanity?
God: That's right.
You: Hitler and The Holocaust?
God: Yeah.
You: Vietnam and the My Lai Massacre?
God: Yep.
You: The Oklahoma City Bombing and all those little babies?
God: You betcha.
You: Even, poor little sweet Zosia and what happened to her?
God: 'Fraid so, bud.
You: But...why?
God: That answer's given on a "need to know" basis...and you don't need to know. Just know that I love you.
If this was the conversation, what would YOU say to God? How would you then evaluate God? I want some REAL answers. Be completely honest. I've asked a couple of people this question, and they gave some real answers. One friend of mind said that he would tell God to go ahead and send him to Hell because he'd rather be in Hell than with that type of God. Another person said that she would tell God to kiss her (censored) and that HE belongs in Hell. Yet another person said that Satan was a hero for rebelling against the creep. Hey, not bad, eh? See, the way I see it, this is what it comes down to. Are we willing to accept God AS HE IS, even if God not as we necessarily think of Him. I truly believe that my theology captures a decent, though necessarily incomplete, view of the Biblical God. However, I guarantee you, if I were to get to Heaven and I found out that God were an "openness" God or whatever, it wouldn't matter a hill of beans to me. Just let me see Jesus. Heck, if I found out that God was openly malevolent and the whole thing was a cosmic joke, I'd STILL let God be God. Whatever God is, God is. Praise be the Creator. But I want to know what YOU guys think? Again, if you spoke to God and the dialogue above is what you had, what would you say to God and how would you think of God? Let's see how theocentric we really are... Back to the books. hehe
Anxiously waiting,
Mephi2K
PS: For anyone that's seen it, recall "The Devil's Advocate" and Al Pacino's (who plays Satan) take on God....
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
12/12/00 4:53 PM
Study Break Counter-Question
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Mephi, thanks for the thought-provoking (procrastination inducing) question.
If a human husband said he "loved" me like that, I'd tell him to get lost and I'd take out a restraining order. If a human mother "loved" her children like that, her children would be taken away and she would be sent to prison. Should we hold God to LOWER standards than we hold each other? Should we have LOWER expectations for God's love than we do for abusive husbands and mothers? If God said he "loved" me like that, it would obviously be fruitless to try to restrain or imprision him. I would say, "OK God, if you want to be the 'unjust judge,' then I'm going to be the 'persistent widow,'" and I would tell God exactly what I thought/felt about the way he "loves" the people he calls his "bride" and his "children."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/12/00 5:35 PM
RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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I gave up arguing with God a long time ago. The Lord silenced my objections years ago. I humbly bow before him and acknowledge his Creator rights and Lordship over all things, including me.
I worship him, for he is absolutely sovereign!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/12/00 7:05 PM
RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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If God's legacy is that of the faithful pursuer of all people through Israel and God's own self-revelation is Jesus Christ but then we find out that God is actually as the above dialogue describes, I'd have to agree with GDG. We have been decieved and mocked, and certainly not to ANY being's "glory" though perhaps for their entertainment. "Glory" would lose its meaning. It is perhaps "theocentric" to be okay with that, but it would not be sufficiently Christocentric. I for one am a Christain, not simply a God-fearer. On this sort of thing, we either know better or we have missed the message of Christ. In my opinion, this is the position of specifically Christian faith.
But notice, we seem to be entitled/empowered/allowed to have an opinion on this issue, does this not imply that we are at least to that extent autonomous? Or perhaps the content of my opinion alerts others to the fact that I am not among the elect? Just curious about why I have an opinion and what it might mean. Has God withdrawn the needed theocentric grace for me to have faith? If Christ has not been raised, AND if that has not accomplished what Paul and the other NT authors said it did, then our faith is in vain and we are of all people most to be pitied. If God is as the dialogue above describes, we are to be pitied indeed (the salvific work of Christ is only meaningful if God is trustworthy, anyone who understands covenant must admit this much), life is simply a cruel joke told at our expense.
Sure the creator is entitled to do as the creator pleases, but it evil (though I suppose this distinction too eludes us in this senario) to create creatures with such a strong ethical awareness only to violate it in the most offensive way. Christ did come, this is definitive (for Christians, at least), if God proves a liar... and I can imagine nothing worse. Send me to hell, unless thats a lie too.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Craig
12/12/00 7:50 PM
RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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If God willed (ie. it was Him) performing the acts of the Holaucost; I would say He has done wrong. Was it part of His plan? YES.
Modes-
I am completely confused as to what your logic was in your post. What would make God a liar? How is it more Christocentric to say you are the one, not God, who creates and manipulates the future and that it is you who makes the effort to be saved? I am confused. You make a lot of accusations about the idea of a Sovereign God being a liar of sorts, make some attempt to substantiate it, yet I don't see any of your idea in Scripture.
Man makes plans with his heart, but God directs his paths.
God loved Jacob and hated Esau.
God predestined those whom He foreknew.
Sola Scriptura
Craig
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/12/00 7:59 PM
RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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ModesofThought concludes, Send me to hell, unless thats a lie too.
Wow! How frightening! What dangerous words! I surely hope you have an authentic and biblical grasp of what hell is like.
I assure you and all others, if Memphi had created a hypothetical conversation that was just the opposite--that God clarified to me that I was wrong and that he was truly open to the future as open theists claim--I would definitely not choose hell. What a horrible thought for anyone to prefer hell over the God Christians have believed in for millennia!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/12/00 8:27 PM
RE: RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Lion-Lamb,
You missed the point. You speak of "the God Christians have believed in for millennia", the god of Mephi's dialogue is NOT that God. This is not about whether God knows this or that about the future, it is much more fundamental to the character of God, specifically, God's faithfulness, which if anything should be clear throughout Scripture, it is that God is faithful. I am not at all saying that if God knows the future exhaustively, then I choose hell. I am saying that, if God has fundamentally decieved us in the supposed self-revelation in Jesus Christ, and it turns out that God is malicious and evil, then an eternity with such a being is not in the cards if I do happen to hae anything to say about it. The character of God has been clear throughout the history of the chruch. Mephi's dialogue confounded that clarity. THAT is the problem. The problem is NOT whether there might be some way that God is faithful to the biblical portrait of God AND classical theists happen to be right about some things that surprise me, which you seem to imply by saying that if Open theism happend to be true you'd still choose heaven. That statement is doubly bizzare in that you are speaking of "choosing" as though it is what you think you are doing currently, is this the case? What are YOU choosing between again?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/12/00 8:44 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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I understood and still understand Memphi's scenario quite well. Did you?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/12/00 10:48 PM
RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Those passages are addressed in a helpful way in other parts of this site, check out the Scripture index.
Mephi's dialogue reflects a capricious and flipant character and a total disregard for the Love and faithfulness of God as expressed in Jesus Christ (not to mention God's own self-descriptions in the Old Testament "I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt..."). Read the parables (particularly the one about the sower and the one about the weeds. Both of which gain clarity from Jesus' further explanation to the disciples) found in Matt. 13. Jesus makes it doubly clear that there is an "enemy" (Matt. 13:28) to God in the world and that that enemy is "the devil" (13:39). If you want to pretend that God and satan are basically the same will at work, then I would warn you to look at Matt. 12:22-32 where Jesus teaches clearly about the dangers of confusing God and satan ("Beelzebul", here).
If Jesus teaches that God is not Satan and Jesus' minstry reflects revolt against the kingdom of Satan, and then it turns out that God is, in fact, indistinguishable from satan in terms of "will" and Jesus claims to be God. Then either Jesus is a fool and certainly not God, or God is a liar for coming as Jesus and pretending to confront what was/is in reality Godself. Tell me the meaning of "this an enemy has done." Classical theists are saved by falicitous inconsistency. In their overzealous desire to attribute "glory" (read "power" actually) to God they turn what should be poetic words of praise into metaphysical catastraphies. If they continue to at least confess correctly; that God is love and that satan is the enemy, and join Christians around the world in the task of winning souls for the lost by continuing the battle Jesus started (and DELEGATED to the church), then all is well. But if they confuse things at this level as well, I fear much for their faithfulness and some for their faith. When classical theism is thought through carefully, it yields a negation of the reality of evil. As long as one hasn't arrived at that conclusion (by falicitous inconsistency), there is good reason for hope that they will still make effective members of the body of Christ. If one does arrive at that conclusion, what might they hope for? More of the same? What we percieve (and God tells us!) as evil is the best there is to be expected? What part of "God is a liar if there really is no evil" don't you understand?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/12/00 9:14 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Lion-Lamb,
You'll have to say something substantive if you want further response.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/12/00 10:43 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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I did.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/12/00 10:54 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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I guess you may have to condescend to typing it into the chatroom for my benefit. My server denies me access to your skull.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
12/12/00 11:19 PM
RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Jesus says: "Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven..." Matthew 7:9-11
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Observer
12/12/00 11:30 PM
RE: RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Luke 13
2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?
3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
12/12/00 11:54 PM
RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Wow Meph,
You've been cramming too long. I hope you have some down time after next week. That was quite something, you created quite a discussion.
Since I read it I'll honor your request to respond.
The line you wrote that struck me was:
Heck, if I found out that God was openly malevolent and the whole thing was a cosmic joke, I'd STILL let God be God.
wow,
How do you do that? I know, I know, you are predestined.
I could not say let 'god'be God at that point because even were I to be dead and a 'god' had given me another gospel I would not forsake my hope for the truth.
This 'god' in your quote is not my God. But to answer you, suspend my disbelief, and imagine this scenerario I would have to say I would be
betrayed and heartbroken, and crying out for Yeshua. If he didn't come to my rescue I would not have to go to hell, I would be in it.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
12/13/00 11:46 PM
RE: RE: Simply a Study Break Question
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Top 6 things I'd say if I got to heaven and God told me he was a Calvinist
6) "How am I predestined to respond, God?"
5) "Did Calvin make it?"
4) "Hi Boyd, Pinnock and Sanders! Did Calvin make it?"
3) "Good choice, mighty one."
2) "Nice curve ball with all that 'Jesus is the Word' stuff."
1) "Can you now predestine me to see some modicum of consistency in your speech and goodness in your character... please?"
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
12/14/00 1:40 AM
A Few More Responders Please?
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Sup, people...
I want to give a response here...but I'd like to get a few more people to answer...ESPECIALLY Dr. Boyd. Holla back at cha.
Your brother in Christ,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
12/18/00 6:23 AM
Boyd Meets Calvin's God
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Leave it to Meph to pose such an insightful "teaser." This thought experiement gets to the heart of the difference between Reformed folk and Arminian/Wesley/Openness folk. That's why its such a great teaser. On a different thread Meph asked me to respond to this, so here goes.
I find two aspects of my being that come into play in answering this brain teaser.
1) I am "wired" to detest evil. I experience myself having a moral obligation NOT to submit to evil, regardless of personal consequence. I assume this sentiment is universal among moral people; certainly among born again people.
2) I am "wired" to see causation as transitive. That is to say, I have no alternative to understanding things other than this: "If 'a' causes 'b,' and 'b' causes 'c', then 'a' causes 'c'." If 'c' is something evil, then I am "wired" to see 'a' as doing something evil. Hence, for example, if God causes Hitler, and Hitler causes evil, I can't help but see God as causing evil. (I've looked high and low for an analogy from Reformed folk to show me how to understand this otherwise, but with no success). I simply don't know what it would mean to call 'c' evil while affirming 'a' good.
Now, if I meet my Maker and it turns out God caused everything, including Zosia's torture, one of two things will be true.
a) Either my "wiring" as it is now will be in tack, or
b) My "wiring" will be fundamentally different.
If "b" is true, then perhaps I'll see the glory of the whole thing. I may wonder why he wired me and other moral people to resist him throughout our earthly journey, but I supposed I'd even see this. It's just that I can say nothing about THAT NOW, for NOW my wiring is to resist evil and to see causation as transitive. If I'd come to see and say that God who caused agents to do evil is "good," I have no idea NOW what the meaning of "good" might be THEN.
If "a" is true and my wiring THEN is as it is NOW, then I have entered a Kafka-esk nightmare. Everything about me is wired to see this God as evil and to resist him. I will of course reverently ask him to clarify... perhaps he doesn't mean by "cause" what I mean? Perhaps....? But if in deed it is after much inquiring precisely as Meph's original dilema supposes, I can only be honest and say to the Maker, "You wired me to feel morally obliged to resist you. Im perfectly aware of the fact that you have the power to torture me eternally. So of course I am tempted right now to deny my moral wiring and sing praises to you just out of fear of being sent to hell. Out of self-preservation I WANT to say 'You are good, beautiful, lovely, precisely in causing the eternal torment of people you've predestined to hell,' but you and I both know that the words are vacuous. They have no meaning. So, I will resist this self-preservationist temptation. I, out of moral obligation, resist you."
One of two things would then happen, I suppose.
a) God would say, "well done, thou good and faithful servant. I was wondering if you would be willing to be damned for the glory of God. I was wondering whether you'd put your own self-interest over the moral principles I've created you to live by. You choose wisely. You passed the test. Enter into my kingdom." Or
b) God might say, "Ah, you've behaved just as I predestined you to behave. You are conflicted precisely as I've caused you to be conflicted. I've caused you NOT to get it, but just know that you, your pain, and all the pain that ever was, contributes to my over all enjoyment." What he did with me from here would be almost irrelevant.
Good job Meph. The issue gets to the heart of the divide between Calvinists and Arminians. Arminians have trouble even knowing what strict Calvinist mean by the word "good" as applied to their picture of God.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
12/18/00 11:28 AM
The Theistic Bootlicker Speaks!
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Whussup, Room
Boy, I tell ya. We have some BOLD people in here, ladies and gentlemen. Choosing HELL over God. This is some heavy stuff. Choosing to side with one's OWN feeling of morality over God's sovereignty. Choosing eternal separation with God rather than letting HIM decide what is ultimately what reality is about. Looks like it's just me and Lion-Lamb willing to worship and kneel before God, regardless of the situation. (We are such mindless, brown-nosing drones, aren't we, Lion? LOL) This stuff is quite interesting. So, let me go ahead and make some statements now...
This is what I'm hearing from Doc Boyd:
"God, YOU gave me this sense of moral compunction. YOU are the one who I feel delineated what was good and evil. YOU are the one who created me like this. I have to be true to the nature with which you created me and regard you (as I now conceive of you) as evil. I feel that if this were the case God would justify me adhering to my own sense of morality, even to the point of rejecting Him."
Hmmm...
Romans 3:3-8
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. [[HA! Yeah, right...God, if you are wrong, I'm gonna tell ya!]] As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say-- as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say-- "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
Romans 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[[(Heck, yeah we will. We're SUPPOSED to talk back to God, Paul. Didn't you KNOW that?]]
But whatever...and I thought of something else too.
In his marvelous new book, "Reaching for the Invisible God", Philip Yancey makes, I think, a wonderous assertion. He has a chapter called "Rosetta Stone" In that chapter, he basically stated what I wholeheartedly believe. (Actually, Ravi Zacharias says kinda the same thing) The theodicy issue should ALWAYS be looked at from the standpoint such that the person and work of Christ is the "lens" through which we see the whole issue. Yancey says that he keeps the "magnifying glass" of his faith trained on Jesus and this helps him with the issues. I agree with this SOOOO much. And it works. From trosie on 12/08/00 12:11 PM in the "wrong corner" thread. As this was publicly posted on the board, I don't think she would mind me reposting it here. (If I'm wrong, trosie, forgive my trespass )
"I personally needed to be reminded once again that God's character is depicted in the person of Jesus. After talking with some friends last night about the horrible things some children are exposed to (child abuse...), I was struggling with WHY God allows little children, or anyone for that matter, to go through such horrid situations. I was thinking that even if God doesn't know all the details of the future, as Open Theists believe, He does know all the possibilities that are possibly awaiting each person in their lives, thus I was concluding from this that indirectly He does have a hand in the bad things that happen to people, BUT THEN I know that there is a spiritual war going on which means He allows bad things to happen but DOESN'T orchestrate them. God has to work amongst the evil that man can choose to do. Anyway, I REALLY needed to be reminded that we can see God's character when we look to the person of Jesus."
Jesus being the supreme revelation of God does a lot of things for us. It shows us what God likes and what he does not like. It helps us see what we should do here on earth and how we should strive to act. AND it helps keep us focused on the REAL subject and object of our faith. BUT, let's go ahead and posit what has come before, referring to you guys finding out that predestination is true. It would seem to me this is the ONLY thing that you could say to Jesus Himself when you saw him approaching you in Heaven...
"Check it out, 'Lord.' I understand that you supposedly came down from Heaven, were incarnated, walked among us, healed and preached about the Gospel of the Kingdom, died for our sins, and rose from the dead, and ALL that. But it seems to me that NONE of it's genuine. I mean God planned all this from eternity past. None of us really have any true freedom. And what makes it worse, YOU'RE God, Jesus! Sorry, big dog, but due to my moral wiring, I'm afraid I have to reject your 'sacrifice' for us (though I don't know why you would call it that) So, see ya and I definitely wouldn't wanna be ya!"
My tone is overstating the case, but the general INTENT would be the same. Jesus' person and work would be seen as negligible, as meaning nothing. We should remember what the entire faith is about. It's about believing in Christ, following his commands, and being his people. It's ALL about Christ. So for you to reject God is to reject Christ. Hmmm...
I tell y'all what. I gotta give it to some of you for spunk. You guys are some radical type people. I admire that. But I'll tell you this. I pray to GOD that either 1)open view theism is true or 2)that YOU guys never find out if its not. I'd hate to think of the consequences. I'm really doing my best NOT to see this as tacit idolatry of some type, but hey, I'm only human, I suppose. As for me, I will continue using Jesus as MY "magnifying glass" and confessing God as Master of all he has made, no matter what I think of what He's done or HOW He's done it. I may say more later. I think I'll go take a cold shower right now...
Unimaginably amazed and quite disturbed,
Mephi2K
PS: PLEASE don't let this be the last word. Check out the "Ware" thread! Mad love.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/18/00 5:54 PM
RE: The Theistic Bootlicker Speaks!
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Meph, you have gone FAR beyond the words and convictions expressed in the responses to your "dialogue with God" situation. Now you clearly stand in judgment over us and speak as though your confusing God with Satan is to glorify God!!! This is in fact the effect of your dialogue. You then proceed to fall back on Jesus as though that is not the very criterion by which we so vehemently reject your test. If you use Jesus as your lens and find out in the end that God is as your dialogue suggests, then you have proven both a) Jesus to be a liar and guilty of projecting a most distorted and overly optimistic picture of God and b) God and Satan are in fact indistinguishable.
You set up hell and ask us to call it heaven. Dr. Boyd said it better than I and I'd ask you to reread his response to this mor carefully. What you set up is not the God of the Bible, so our rejection of such a being is not so bold and idolatrous as you implicate. If I were to speak in equally strong language as your feedback to our responses, I might say that any fool who would worship the God of that dialogue worships power for its own sake and knows not Love nor God's manifestation of that Love in Christ. For if they did, they would compare the genuine with the impostor and reject the latter. This makes them idolators of sheer power, not worshipers of the God of the Bible. Take the strong language with a grain of salt, but understand that you implicate such judgemnt upon us, this would be the reversal of that implication from our perspective. What you said about Jesus as the lens gives me hope but goes so entirely against your dialogue test that I have no idea what you mean by "Jesus as a lens".
Please note that as Dr. Boyd said, this is not specifically relevant to Open theism but to Arminianism as a whole.
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