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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | Page 2 3 4 5 >>
DogBzkit
03/12/01 3:37 PM
Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Has anyone had a chance to read the latest diatribe from today's newest calvinist missionary? - Bruce A Ware -"God's Lesser Glory: The Diminished God of Open Theism." Although I have not actually read this particular book of Ware's I am familar with him and his host of evangelical defenders of classical theism. The list of calvinistic henchmen opposing Boyd, Sanders and others in the reviews on Ware's book (Amazon.com)is rather humorous. Especially since almost none of the detractors agree on the legitimacy of each petal on the TULIP. I am not sure if I should waste my hard earned money and purchase this book. I am sure it is more of the same tired old arguments. Having been a "calvinist" myself it is funny now to see how the titles of these guys books read like some over zealous college freshman's term paper. I can understand. I guess. They feel the security that calvinism gives them coupled with a fervent almost self righteous desire to defend the glory of God. I knew a professor once who vehemently tried to convert the college campus to calvinism. He also treated those who "don't know any better" as somehow inferior intellectually and spiritually. And Lord knows he was right! Don't they know that to believe anything less is to attack the very nature of God himself!!!Anyway...this prof later committed adultery with a young girl in his church. I always wanted to ask him if God had predestined the whole affair. I saw him not long after that at the local bastion of Calvinism he looked as if he was trying to figure out why God "allowed" I mean "foreknew" uh..I mean "predetermined" oh..I know..."foreordained" Or maybe set up circumstances such that my prof could not help but sin although freely. Yea..that sounds good. I'm thinkin of writing a book myself: "Tip Toe Through the TULIPS: How Contemporary Calvinists do Theological Gardening."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/12/01 6:09 PM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Don't waste your money on that book. It's about what you expect.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
03/12/01 6:47 PM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Actually, I have read it and found it exceedingly weak. Ware's problem is two-fold: as a Calvinist, he cannot seem to defend his own position as well as attacking another position (something apparently inheritant in all calvinists) and two, he seems to truly believe he fully understands open theism when, in fact, most of his questions about it so miss the boat as to make his critique of it pretty much worthless. Having said that, it is a much better book than Geisler's. All in all, I found it basically as one would expect from a calvinist. Any differing from their position is evil...is it worth the money? To me it was, simply because it showed me that my position is much stronger than I thought. I mean, if this is the best they can offer...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
03/13/01 8:21 AM
RE: RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Um...I can certainly empathize with the venting that's going on this thread. But I really don't think it's fair to generalize about what's inherent in all calvinists based on Ware's example. I'm not sure how representative calvinist critics of the open view are of calvinists as a whole. I suspect that many calvinists would be disappointed in Ware's critique as well.
One of the challenges open theists face in defending their view is refuting all the ways they have been misrepresented by their critics (i.e. open theists are process philosophers in disguise, they're Socinian heretics, they don't believe God can know the future, they reject God's omniscience, etc.). The rhetoric in this whole debate is ugly and boring. We can be part of the solution, or part of the problem. Let's break this cycle of slamming and bashing one another.
I'm not saying we should not be critical of Ware--by all means, expose his scholarship for what it is, but back up your claims with some kind of argument, and don't project his mistakes onto all your critics. This leads to a false sense of security so that when you meet a calvinist who can kick your butt in an argument, your overconfidence will make the fall even harder.
Peace,
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
DogBzkit
03/13/01 11:26 AM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Where's the fun in that? Or should I say "Ware's the fun in that."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
03/13/01 11:40 AM
RE: RE: RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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GDG: I hope I wasn't making fun of Ware. I have read Ware's book and it was weak. But I think one of the fundmental problems in diagologing with Calvinists is their need to feel that they are the "true" Christian belief. Having dialoging with several of them over the past few years, I can tell you from experience that they tend to look down on anyone who doesn't agree with them. As such, and as Ware's book shows to good extent, they have a hard time honestly looking at other Christian's beliefs without disdain. Until reformed believers truly adknowledge that other positions within Christianity have legitimate standing as well, they will never be able to understand and effectively enter dialogue with their non-reformed brothers. It should also be noted that until open theism came along, many reformed believers weren't even willing to admit that arminians were Christians. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
03/13/01 11:52 AM
Welcome to Mystery Science Theology
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Hehe. Dontcha wish there was such a thing as "Mystery Science Theology"* where we could all sit around and rip on bad theology and laugh our guts out? GDG
* Those of you who have not seen Mystery Science Theatre will not know what I'm talking about.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
DogBzkit
03/13/01 12:58 PM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Ware would the fun be in that?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
03/13/01 12:58 PM
RE: Welcome to Mystery Science Theology
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GDG-
I think somebody somewhere on this thread said they were in love with your mind. I understand how they feel. And with your mention of Mystery Science Theatre my appreciation of you is comeplete!
I was up last night watching "The Puma Man."
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
writerdad
03/13/01 12:59 PM
RE: Welcome to Mystery Science Theology
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Or perhaps sit around and rip people who one preceives are ripping people who rip people who partake of bad theology...hehehe...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
DogBzkit
03/13/01 1:00 PM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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A real niteWare! Sorry I am not sure why it posted that last one.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/13/01 2:27 PM
Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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What about "Silverware" or "underware?" Juuuust joking!!! Ah Caaaaa 'mon!! Can't 'cha take a joke? Ok. I'm outta here. Buh-bye.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/13/01 2:35 PM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Anyone ever heard that Veggie tales song that goes, "Oh, Ware is my hairbrush?... Oh, Ware is my hairbrush?....Oh Ware-Oh Ware-Oh Ware-Oh Ware--Oh Ware-Oh Waaaaaaaare.....is my hairbrush?"
Sung by Larry the Pickle in Oporatic style.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
03/13/01 2:53 PM
Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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Modes asks:
"Anyone ever heard that Veggie tales song that goes, "Oh, Ware is my hairbrush?... "
Umm...ah...no...I wasn't "aware." Doh!
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
03/13/01 5:26 PM
RE: RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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As a Christian father, yes I have heard that song, more than you would care to know...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
03/13/01 6:48 PM
On the attacks on Calvinists who attack...
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I am not picking on you personally Harold; you just happened to express more clearly what I want to address than others have on this board. Here is what you summarized quite well:
"I can tell you from experience that they (Calvinists) tend to look down on anyone who doesn't agree with them. As such, and as Ware's book shows to good extent, they have a hard time honestly looking at other Christian's beliefs without disdain. Until reformed believers truly adknowledge that other positions within Christianity have legitimate standing as well, they will never be able to understand and effectively enter dialogue with their non-reformed brothers."
This is a typical thing for people to say (and many times the Reformed camp has earned it); but the attacks on the scholasticism of this tradition is really only a pharisaical form of pietism. Calvinists tend to attack heretical doctrine...in response we are branded unkind and can many times be demonized.
I love to see these generalizations sometimes...because I rarely fit any of them. I come from an Arminian/Free Methodist (holiness/Wesleyan) background where I later had a conversion experience and merged in with the charasmatic movement. During this time I had molinist tendencies which do have affinities with Open Theism (just what exactly does God know of the future, and how does He know it?)....I have been on about a 3 year journey moving slowly toward being Reformed (I now align myself with Reformed Theology, I haven't disagreed with anything I have found so far). So actually, I would like to think I am able to dialogue with Christians with different understandings because chances are I USED TO HAVE THE SAME ONES MYSELF. I am not alone; all the friends I have who are Reformed come from very diverse backgrounds and defend the faith because of the direction previous error had taken them. My intention is to point others away from the pitfalls of false doctrine...pitfalls that shipwrecked my faith. Let God defend His own glory; wasn't it Uzzah who God struck dead because he tried to steady the Ark with his own hand because it was about to fall to the mud? Did not God rescue His own ark from the hands of the House of Dagon and struck the people with boils? Did He not deliver the ark back to His people on His own? God is glorified and I am priveleged to dialogue with others about Him. I am not defending God, I defend His church and that faith which we are to be united on. Remember; I understand the Gospel in a far different way than Open Theists, so I take Paul's charge in Galatians that anyone who preaches another gospel is to be anathema...and if you didn't catch it the first time, he repeats it again ANATHEMA. If I am wrong, I must repent or else you should anathematize me...If you are wrong I would say the same goes for you. Is this pharisaical? I'll let you be the judge of that if you so choose.
Craig
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
03/13/01 6:42 PM
On the attacks on Calvinists who attack...
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Ware's my head...I just double posted, DOH!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/13/01 7:54 PM
RE: On the attacks on Calvinists who attack...
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Wow, there is some serious catharsis going on here. What ever else you do, don't sWare, ok?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ilgwamh
03/13/01 9:48 PM
RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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What about Norman Geisler's 'Creating God in the Image of Man'? Anyody read that?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/13/01 10:53 PM
RE: RE: Bruce A Ware's Attack on OT
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I have read Norman Geisler's book. I expected more from him as I know that he is capable of making a good argument. This was not among his more carefulor scholarly attempts.
Honestly the structure of the whole argument seemed to be:
1. I am a Classical theist
2. Classical theism (particularly Geisler's neo-scholasticism) is assumed to be true and superior to all other ways of thinking the Christian faith. Without explaining exactly why.
3. Open Theism does not agree with Classical theism at some points.
4. Therefore, Open theism needs a new title and must be shunned by Evangelicals.
5. Open theism has some things in common with process but is different from process.
6. Let's call it "Neo-Theism" and create a rhetorical attack against it with very little substance.
Actually I read this book at a time when I was looking for good critiques of Openness and was excited to find it. I hoped that he would show some weaknesses and difficulties that I hadn't anticipated or already dealt with in my thinking. He did neither, and disappointed me in terms of his fairness in description. It read like his many other books geared towards warning against one thing or another.
Geisler clearly sees himself as a watchdog for Evangelicals and we are the unwelcome visitors. The irony is that we are not visitors at all we are family.
If you have more specific questions about that book, let me know, I'd be happy to discuss it.
To me the title itself is a dead give away that the book is not going to be even handed or sympathetic at all. The title fits in this case. The problem is that it is not even very useful for an interesting challenge for Open Theists to interact with.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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