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| Posted 6/27/2001 5:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
GregBoyd
01/05/01 4:52 PM
Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Hello comrads:
I thought the exchange between Lion Lamb and myself on Romans 9 was enjoyable, informative and beneficial. I'm happy to see several others benefitted as well (see the Jacob/Esau thread if you haven't read it yet). Something said in the "Literal/Figurative" thread tweaked my interest. I'd like to initiate something similar to the Romans 9 dialogue, but this time over Jeremiah 26. I don't plan to (and am presently unable to) personally engage in a sustained correspondence. (If I do, it will have to spread out over more time than the Romans 9 dialogue). But I'd like to open this up for all to give their thoughts.
Here's what I find interesting about Jeremiah 26. The Lord goes to Jeremiah and says, "Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you; do not hold back a word." EVERY WORD is important!
Then the Lord motivates Jeremiah by promising him this:
"It MAY BE that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I MAY CHANGE MY MIND about the disaster that I INTEND to bring on them, because of their evil doings. You shall say to them: Thus says the LORD: IF you will not listen to me... and heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you URGENTLY -- then I will make this house like Shiloh..." (Jere 26:2-6).
Now, Jeremiah obeys God and brings this message to the officials and all the people (vs. 12). He almost repeats God's instruction verbatim ("every word"). He says, "Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND about the disaster that he has pronounced against you." (vs. 13). Some of the elders later stood up and reminded the people about how God "CHANGED HIS MIND" with Hezekiah (vs. 19). They were in effect saying, if God changed his mind with Hezekiah, then God's promise that he'll change his mind about us may be true.
Several features of this passage intrigue me, and raise questions to non-Openness thinkers.
1) It seems the central point of this passage -- the point of God's speech to Jeremiah, Jeremiah to the official, and certain officials to the people -- is to encourage them to believe that God IS A GOD WHO WILL CHANGE HIS MIND. However, if God doesn't truly (viz. actually/ non-anthropomorphically/ ontologically) change his mind, then isn't the Lord deceiving Jeremiah and the people by promising them that he MIGHT in fact change his mind? If God's mind is eternally settled about this matter (whether by eternal foreknowledge or eternal decree) then could God be speaking truth when HE explicitly tells us he INTENTED to bring disaster, and then explicitly tells us he was willing TO CHANGE HIS MIND about his intention? If his mind and will are settled, there's nothing to change. It seems God isn't speaking forthrightly.
2) The Lord says the people "MAY" listen and that he "MAY" change his mind IF the people will listen. Does not conditional language like this suggest "may not," "might not" and "if not"? [Sometimes the Lord promises "may" when in fact it does NOT turn out the way he said it MIGHT. e.g. Ezek. 12:3. Is he lying?].
3) The Lord himself tells us he gave this message URGENTLY. This is God reporting to us in clear terms what his subjective state was like. If the outcome was foreknown, or predetermined, how could it have been urgent? [Note: when God tells us he might change his mind/intention, this is also a report on his subjective state. The question is, Do we believe him?]
4) If, for the sake of argument, God wanted people to believe that he DOES indeed change his mind -- viz. if God wanted to teach us that the future is partly open, even for him -- how could he do it in terms that would be clearer than what we find here? If this passage doesn't tell us that God WANTS US to believe that he changes his mind, what would a passage that did do this look like? If this passage isn't clear, what would constitute clarify? In short, if God explicitly telling us "Though I INTEND x, I may CHANGE MY MIND" isn't sufficient for us to BELIEVE that God may "intend x, but then change his mind," how could God possibly convince us of this truth if he wanted to?
5) At the very very least, should anyone be labelled "unbiblical" or "heretical" or "non-evangelical" if they read this passage (and others like it) and feel obliged, by the Word of God, to conclude: "I guess God really does change his mind"? Looking forward to some healthy, objective, open-minded interaction.
Greg Boyd
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/06/01 1:49 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Solid argument. Can't wait for responses.
Any takers out there?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/06/01 9:05 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Some Crucial Observations for Proper Interpretation
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As with Greg, so it is with me. Taking a few days away from the office to write some lengthy notes on Romans 9 is out of the question on Jeremiah 26. Though I believe I have a full and adequate reply in my mind, I do not have time to convey it in written form. At best, it will have to be spread over many shorter notes.
Having said that, this note will have some length to it only because I am including the full NRSV text of Jeremiah 26. I do so for three reasons: (1) to put the text in front of everyone, so everyone knows what the text says (especially for the lazy ones ); (2) so that anyone who wants to quote the text can copy it and paste it from here; and (3) so that I can highlight a few things I want to comment on in this note.
At the beginning of the reign of King Jehoiakim son of Josiah of Judah, this word came from the LORD: 2 Thus says the LORD: Stand in the court of the LORD’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you; do not hold back a word. 3 It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings. 4 You shall say to them: Thus says the LORD: If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law that I have set before you, 5 and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently—though you have not heeded— 6 then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth.
7 The priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD. 8 And when Jeremiah had finished speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to all the people, then the priests and the prophets and all the people laid hold of him, saying, “You shall die! 9 Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without inhabitant’?” And all the people gathered around Jeremiah in the house of the LORD.
10 When the officials of Judah heard these things, they came up from the king’s house to the house of the LORD and took their seat in the entry of the New Gate of the house of the LORD. 11 Then the priests and the prophets said to the officials and to all the people, “This man deserves the sentence of death because he has prophesied against this city, as you have heard with your own ears.”
12 Then Jeremiah spoke to all the officials and all the people, saying, “It is the LORD who sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the words you have heard. 13 Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you. 14 But as for me, here I am in your hands. Do with me as seems good and right to you. 15 Only know for certain that if you put me to death, you will be bringing innocent blood upon yourselves and upon this city and its inhabitants, for in truth the LORD sent me to you to speak all these words in your ears.”
16 Then the officials and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man does not deserve the sentence of death, for he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God.” 17 And some of the elders of the land arose and said to all the assembled people, 18 “Micah of Moresheth, who prophesied during the days of King Hezekiah of Judah, said to all the people of Judah:
‘Thus says the LORD of hosts,
Zion shall be plowed as a field;
Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins,
and the mountain of the house a wooded height.’
19 Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and did not the LORD change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!”
20 There was another man prophesying in the name of the LORD, Uriah son of Shemaiah from Kiriath-jearim. He prophesied against this city and against this land in words exactly like those of Jeremiah. 21 And when King Jehoiakim, with all his warriors and all the officials, heard his words, the king sought to put him to death; but when Uriah heard of it, he was afraid and fled and escaped to Egypt. 22 Then King Jehoiakim sent Elnathan son of Achbor and men with him to Egypt, 23 and they took Uriah from Egypt and brought him to King Jehoiakim, who struck him down with the sword and threw his dead body into the burial place of the common people.
24 But the hand of Ahikam son of Shaphan was with Jeremiah so that he was not given over into the hands of the people to be put to death.
I offer four simple observations that need to be considered if we hope to understand Jeremiah 26 correctly.
Purple highlighted words. It is worthy of note that Jeremiah is conveying to Judah what he specifically describes as this word came from the Lord. “What’s the importance of that?” you may ask. Well, simply put, this is what some might call anthropomorphism. Put into plain English, it is God speaking to humans in their own language conventions. More will undoubtedly be said about this later. But it is crucial to note that Jeremiah 26:1 draws this to our attention.
Red highlighted words. Perhaps Greg won’t mind a slight but altogether crucial qualification to his first point. Greg says, It seems the central point of this passage -- the point of God's speech to Jeremiah, Jeremiah to the official, and certain officials to the people -- is to encourage them to believe that God IS A GOD WHO WILL CHANGE HIS MIND. This is incomplete. I would suggest that Greg’s statement should have continued to say God will change his mind and not bring upon you the disaster he has announced, if you repent and no longer continue failing to heed my words to you as you have habitually done. In other words, the passage does not say God changes his mind, as such. Rather, the passage says God will change his mind about the disaster he threatens against you, if you change and heed my word, that is repent. This is stated plainly in verse 13--Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
Blue highlighted words. Take note how the priests, the prophets, and all the people understood Jeremiah’s prophecy. Does it not seem clear that they understand Jeremiah’s prophecy to be a word of doom and not of hope? Why do you suppose they understood it that way? Two statements in the text make it clear that they understood Jeremiah's prophecy as a word of doom: (1) They say, “You shall die! and (2) They say, Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without inhabitant’? Did they understand Jeremiah’s prophecy correctly? Were they mistaken concerning how they understood his prophecy? What do you think?
Brown highlighted words. What, ultimately, was the prevailing response to Jeremiah’s prophecy? Verse 24 indicates that the people would have followed through on their intentions to kill the prophet, unless Ahikam had intervened. Does this contribute anything to how we should understand Jeremiah 26?
These are a few observations that I believe need to be considered in any reasonable interpretation of Jeremiah 26.
Thank you.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
starslayer
01/08/01 7:36 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Wow! Great discussion! For introductory purposes—I was only recently introduced to this web site by a friend, who knows of my interest in theology. I have heard a few whisperings of this debate that you Baptists from the north have got going on and upon scanning the web site, my interest was snagged and I thought I might try my hand at being engaged by the characters here. Especially since I am interested in how God exists in the past, present, future and how that relates to what He knows. Thus, I will use Jeremiah 26 as my springboard. Thanks to Greg Boyd for the good topic starter.
First things first, however. I need to be informed of what the basis of this debate is about, before I open my big mouth. I’ve been directed to numerous helpful resources by Christus Victor web site on Open Theism. But I believe I come up short on the predestination side. Sir Lion-Lamb could you be of assistance? I know there are possibly a million slants to Calvinism out there and possibly as many on predestination. Could you direct me to some resources that you mostly concur with, that of course are relative to this dialogue? I have taken note of key scriptures you have referred to on the site.
Secondly, I would like to comment briefly on Greg Boyd’s 1st point on the passage. Greg Boyd speaks of a possible interpretation where God truly does as the passage says: God suggests there is a possibility that He will change His mind about the disaster he has planned. Greg Boyd suggests that this is actually the case with God—ontologically, non-anthropomorphically. The question I would like to ask is—Can we speak of God non-anthropomorphicly? The presupposition behind the question being that God the father is the (1) ultimate wholly other being (not human) (2) from whom we are separated from and we can do no better than to speak of him in anthropomophisms primarily because of those two conditions. Ultimately, we cannot speak of God non-anthropomorphically until we are again united with Him. Now we can speak of Jesus non-anthropomorphically, because Jesus was human and he was the union between mankind and God. But I believe we might have trouble speaking of God the Father in those terms. The Old Testament folks might have even more trouble speaking of God in non-anthropomorphic terms because they did not yet have Jesus or the Holy Spirit for that matter, although the glory of God came upon some who prophesied. Therefore it seems as though Sir Lion’s saying; “God speaks to humans in their own language conventions” is correct, prima fascia. This is not to say that we should not try to “know” God or speak of Him non-anthropomorphically, but it is to say that this is the best we can do. It is sort of like the linear algebra class I once took where we talked about 3rd, 4th, 5th and even infinite dimensions. We solved problems using these variables, but the reality is that I have no concept of an infinite dimension, although I calculated problems which gave me conclusions about this dimension. The only hole I can find in my own thinking here is that God the father, God the Son and God the Spirit are ONE and as Jesus said, “If you have seen me you have seen the Father.”
Is this a worthy matter of consideration?
Blessings from our Lord!
starslayer
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/07/01 11:13 PM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Greetings, Starslayer!
I surely hope you're not hunting Leo (the Lion, that is).
On your question about predestination, I should let you know that the fundamental point of disagreement I have with open theism is not that it is not Calvinism. I consider my Arminian friends (and I have many) to be on the same side I am on. So, I would prefer to keep the focal point of the debate off Calvinism vs. Open Theism. For, believe it or not, I do not consciously think of myself as a Calvinist in any of my theological discussions. Calvinism, for me, is not a position from which to argue. Rather, Calvinism is a historical-theological label that, at best, only describes but does not prescribe my beliefs. As to theological books that might describe beliefs that are fairly close to my own, I hesitate to direct you to anyone in particular. Generally, Reformed theological works such as Dabney, Berkhof, Warfield, Machen, would fairly accurately describe beliefs I hold dear.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
starslayer
01/08/01 8:34 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Sir Leo,
Thank you kindly for the response. Forgive the name—that’s what I was in my other life!
As for the info offered—Okay I can work with that.
Thanks for the clarification on your ..er ...stance. I prefer to have some wiggle room too when it comes to getting pegged. Truth is, all these theological labels are historical descriptors of thought patterns and I am aware of the generalizations. Perhaps then you would purrr if I very generally engage your position from a non-Open Theisty direction?
Many more blessings.
slayer
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/08/01 9:43 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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It appears to me that God never "changed" his mind. He was going to destroy them , IF they didn't repent. Just another conditional promise, albeit a negative one.
Could it be that God was using a technique often used with children, make the threat of punishment so immediate that a response was required?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/08/01 7:15 PM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Call me dull, but I don't see that anyone has so far answered the claim that Jer. 26 encourages us to think of God as changing his mind. OF COURSE he'll change his mind IF... But that is still changing his mind. He says HE INTENDED to destroy Judah. So, he must REALLY change his intention -- or he was lying in saying he INTENDED this. To "might-be-don" -- if God DID change his mind, how would it look different than it does in THIS PASSAGE (or Ex. 32:10-14)?
Re: the point that we can't speak about God non-anthropomorphically. No one seems to make this objection when classical theists say "God DOESN'T change his mind."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/08/01 9:47 PM
RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Beso's note says, Re: the point that we can't speak about God non-anthropomorphically. No one seems to make this objection when classical theists say "God DOESN'T change his mind." Hmmmmm! I do! Hasn't anyone been listening? I have made the claim that we cannot talk about God non-anthropomorphically. Indeed, when the biblical text says, God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (e.g., Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; etc.) the text is speaking in terms of anthropomorphism, for it is qualifying how we are to understand biblical portrayals of God in terms of the human quality of repentance. Change of mind is a human quality that corresponds to a God-like quality, but, of course, as Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 plainly state, however God changes his mind, it is not to be measured by or thought of being like a human changes one's mind. Rather, humans have the quality of mind-change because they are like their Creator.
Whether the Bible portrays God as loving, hating, angry, compassionate, choosing, rejecting, or whatever else, God is representing himself to us in human likeness. How else would God reveal himself to his creatures? His creatures know nothing of God apart from God showing himself to them in terms of things they know by virtue of the fact that God has indelibly left his imprint on everything he has made, especially human beings whom he made in his image and likeness.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
acts9_12out
01/09/01 5:13 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion,
I think your tactics are a bit unfair. Your whole argument is based on two passages that say "God is not a man that He should repent..." I can just as easily say, "Well, there are many instances where the Bible says God does repent, so there!" I don't think you can base your idea of who God is on two passages. You imply that since Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 say that God doesn't repent, then this is a constant we should use to measure God's inability to repent, be grieved, be sorry, etc... by, and interpret the passages that say He does repent anthropomorphically.
Two points here:
Did you know that John Calvin looked at 1 Samuel 15 in a similar way? He said that 1 Sam 15:11 and 1 Sam 15:35 (which say that God repented) were anthropomorphisms, and 1 Sam 15:29 (which says that God does not repent) means exactly what it says... Talk about manipulating Scripture to fit a presupposition...
Secondly, I hope you would agree that context is very important. Do we say, "Well, 1 Samuel 15:29 and Numbers 23:19 say that God does not repent, therefore, God never repents..." or should we look at the context of those passages and determine why God does or doesn't repent in certain situations? As already noted on the 1 Samuel thread, God does not repent of His decision to take the kingdom from Saul. He made His decision, and He will not repent and restore Saul to the throne. God did not repent of a specific, stated decision. Numbers 23:19 is similar. The short version is that God was being bribed. God, again, would not repent of a specific, stated purpose. If you'd like the long version, let me know... It's truly a wonderful story. If you'd like, read Numbers 23:19 in the context of the 22nd chapter through 23:19 to see what I'm talking about.
In conclusion, I think it's very important to look at the context of a passage to determine exactly what's going on. God repents over and over, and even grows weary of repenting (Jer 15:6). He did not repent in two specific situations...
In Christ, --Acts9_12Out
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/09/01 6:45 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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beso,
If God DID change His mind, it would look exactly like this passage.
I would offer this as a example of a mind change... I say, "I offer you this red pencil or this green one. Which you you like?". You say, "I'll take the green one". I say, "I've changed my mind, here's the yellow one".
This is how I see "changing my mind". I can't imagine how we could apply this kind of mind change to God. I'm I looking at the idea of changing your mind incorrectly?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
acts9_12out
01/10/01 10:03 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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don,
What if God does not offer any "options" for man? What if He says He will do something, and then does not do it? Would that be a change of mind? Case in point... The children of Israel fashioned the golden calf and began to worship it. Let's take a look at the discourse between God and Moses that follows...
________________
Exodus 32:9-14 (New King James Version)
32:9 And the Lord said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 32:10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation." ________________
There are no stipulations here. God told Moses to leave Him alone so that He might consume the nation of Israel. Did this happen? Let's take a look...
________________
32:11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: "Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 32:12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.' "
________________
In verse 12, Moses pleads with his Lord (who supposedly never repents) to repent of the harm He intends to do. How does God respond?
________________
32:14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
________________
God responded to Moses' prayer. He was angry with the children of Israel, had every intention to destroy them, and responded to Moses' prayer and repented of the harm He said He would do. What a glorious God we have!
In Christ, --Acts9_12Out
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/09/01 7:58 AM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Acts9_12Out,
I guess I'm having some difficulty with the idea that God "changes His mind". As I understand the OV , God knows all the possible moves Moses might make and surely must have a plan of action on His part for each of Moses possible responses. I usually change my mind in response to some new information, God must have known that Moses might plead for His people and been ready to respond in that situation. One would think that God's mind was made up before hand. If Moses does this, I'll do that. If Moses does this, I'll do this other thing. As I see it God's mind was always made up about what He would do if we respond in certain ways.
He doesn't always enumerate all the options to us in every encounter, but I think that repent and be saved is an implicit option in all of God's dealings with us .
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/09/01 8:43 AM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Acts 9_12,
So you don’t think I’m being fair with Scripture! Hmmmmm! Perhaps you should read my note more carefully. I affirmed precisely what the text of 1 Samuel 15 affirms. God presents himself to us in 1 Samuel 15:11 & 35 as changing his mind concerning Saul as king. Yet, in the same chapter (1 Sam 15:29), God also assures us through Samuel that he is not to be assessed or measured by the way humans change their minds. However God changed his mind concerning Saul, it is not to be compared to the way humans change their minds. Didn’t I affirm this?
Furthermore, didn’t I affirm that all we know concerning God is known because God reveals himself to us anthropomorphically? I don’t believe you have begun to grapple with much of anything I said in the note to which you replied. For I said,
Whether the Bible portrays God as loving, hating, angry, compassionate, choosing, rejecting, or whatever else, God is representing himself to us in human likeness. How else would God reveal himself to his creatures? His creatures know nothing of God apart from God showing himself to them in terms of things they know by virtue of the fact that God has indelibly left his imprint on everything he has made, especially human beings whom he made in his image and likeness.
I didn’t see any evidence that you have reflected upon these things I said.
It is readily apparent that both Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 do precisely, in context, what I said they do. Again, I quote my own words.
Indeed, when the biblical text says, God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (e.g., Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; etc.) the text is speaking in terms of anthropomorphism, for it is qualifying how we are to understand biblical portrayals of God in terms of the human quality of repentance. Change of mind is a human quality that corresponds to a God-like quality, but, of course, as Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 plainly state, however God changes his mind, it is not to be measured by or thought of being like a human changes one's mind. Rather, humans have the quality of mind-change because they are like their Creator.
You may think I’m cheating. Fine! Charge me with cheating as you already did. But I believe you are cheating with the biblical text. Everything in Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 have the clear and obvious appearance of being qualifiers that govern how we are to understand God’s self-portrayal as changing his mind. He does not change his mind the way humans change their minds. Nothing, absolutely nothing, in either text suggests what you and open theists want the texts to say, namely that it was in these two instances that God did not repent in two specific situations. That is hardly what the text suggests. You imposed that restriction upon the text. Nothing in either text warrants your conclusion.
Perhaps I won’t convince you. So be it! But I assure you that you are not convincing me in the least. Sorry! But I am convinced, until demonstrated otherwise, that I correctly understand 1 Samuel 15 and Number 23 and Genesis 6 and Jeremiah 26, etc., etc. I have not fount anything in this forum or elsewhere to move me in the least. That, of course, does not mean that I concur with how other non-open theists explain these two passages, such as Bruce Ware. For I do not agree with Bruce Ware. Yet, it seems you think I do. Perhaps that's because you haven't read my notes on this matter carefully enough. May I suggest you read my note again, more carefully this time? Thanks.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Baaaaaaaaaaah!
Lion-Lamb
P.S. Short version. Long version. It doesn't matter! I've read and re-read and examined and re-examined every published and numerous unpublished open theist explanations of Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29. Not one has any convincing element to them.
P.P.S. May I ask why you call yourself Acts 9_12?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/09/01 7:05 PM
RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion, hope you're sitting down (you probably are since this is coming over the internet). But, get this... I actually AGREE with you on something. Hmmmmm.... I better recheck my thinking.
You say, "Humans have the quality of mind changing because they are like their Creator". And "God doesn't change his mind the way humans do" -- that is the purpose of Num.23:19. AMEN.
But these statements DO assume that God DOES change his mind -- in some sense. I don't see that the Doc or Sanders or any other Open Theist would fight you on this. Now we just need to articulate the sense in which he DOES change.
I suggest: God DOES change his intentions (since many of these passages specify the intention that changed). But unlike humans, God never changes his mind for imperfect reasons. Whenever he changes his mind, its out of perfect motives.
Agree?
If so, we must frame this post. THE FIRST TIME LION AND BESO HAVE EVER AGREED.
But, you know me, I'm not an "optimistic" person (recall the ambulance analogy on the Trinity thread). So I'm betting I'm off here.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/09/01 7:23 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Beso,
I'm savoring the moment of agreement, no matter how small, how short, or how insignificant.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/09/01 9:41 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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It's satisfyingly suspicious, isn't it.
Where correct or not, the APPARENT agreement IS significant.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/10/01 1:11 PM
RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion Lamb confuses me. He agrees that God changes his mind -- indeed, that we change our mind because we are made in the image of God who changes his mind. Yet he says that none of the texts that say God changes his mind say "what Open Theists want them to say." But Open Theists only want them to say what Lion Lamb says they say: God changes his mind. Of course God doesn't change his mind the way humans do... "he's not a man that he should repent." But he DOES change his mind.
Whatever else it means, it seems that CHANGE of MIND means at least the denial of UNCHANGING MIND. But THIS is what the traditional view of foreknowledge asserts. God's mind, intentions, plans etc... are eternally unchanging.
ps. This site ROCKS!!! VERY informative, stimulating and (sometimes) aggravating. Not your typical chat chat stuff. Bravo Christus Victor
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/10/01 1:53 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion-Lamb wrote:
P.S. Short version. Long version. It doesn't matter! I've read and re-read and examined and re-examined every published and numerous unpublished open theist explanations of Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29. Not one has any convincing element to them.
What is equally fascinating is that those who contend 1 Sam. 15:29 to be categorical ignore verse 11 of the very same chapter that reads: "It repenteth me [IOW, I've changed my mind] that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments."
Now, the interesting thing about premises purported to be categorical: If you can show one exception, you disprove them.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Plebe
01/10/01 11:22 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Great thread, thanks lion.
'If the word came from the lord'is a case of God stooping down to reveal somthing at our level, and it means so much more on his level,
I'm wondering if when God gives us truth it is truer on his level?
Isn't truth truth?
Message Go To Page 2 >>
GregBoyd
01/05/01 4:52 PM
Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Hello comrads:
I thought the exchange between Lion Lamb and myself on Romans 9 was enjoyable, informative and beneficial. I'm happy to see several others benefitted as well (see the Jacob/Esau thread if you haven't read it yet). Something said in the "Literal/Figurative" thread tweaked my interest. I'd like to initiate something similar to the Romans 9 dialogue, but this time over Jeremiah 26. I don't plan to (and am presently unable to) personally engage in a sustained correspondence. (If I do, it will have to spread out over more time than the Romans 9 dialogue). But I'd like to open this up for all to give their thoughts.
Here's what I find interesting about Jeremiah 26. The Lord goes to Jeremiah and says, "Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you; do not hold back a word." EVERY WORD is important!
Then the Lord motivates Jeremiah by promising him this:
"It MAY BE that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I MAY CHANGE MY MIND about the disaster that I INTEND to bring on them, because of their evil doings. You shall say to them: Thus says the LORD: IF you will not listen to me... and heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you URGENTLY -- then I will make this house like Shiloh..." (Jere 26:2-6).
Now, Jeremiah obeys God and brings this message to the officials and all the people (vs. 12). He almost repeats God's instruction verbatim ("every word"). He says, "Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND about the disaster that he has pronounced against you." (vs. 13). Some of the elders later stood up and reminded the people about how God "CHANGED HIS MIND" with Hezekiah (vs. 19). They were in effect saying, if God changed his mind with Hezekiah, then God's promise that he'll change his mind about us may be true.
Several features of this passage intrigue me, and raise questions to non-Openness thinkers.
1) It seems the central point of this passage -- the point of God's speech to Jeremiah, Jeremiah to the official, and certain officials to the people -- is to encourage them to believe that God IS A GOD WHO WILL CHANGE HIS MIND. However, if God doesn't truly (viz. actually/ non-anthropomorphically/ ontologically) change his mind, then isn't the Lord deceiving Jeremiah and the people by promising them that he MIGHT in fact change his mind? If God's mind is eternally settled about this matter (whether by eternal foreknowledge or eternal decree) then could God be speaking truth when HE explicitly tells us he INTENTED to bring disaster, and then explicitly tells us he was willing TO CHANGE HIS MIND about his intention? If his mind and will are settled, there's nothing to change. It seems God isn't speaking forthrightly.
2) The Lord says the people "MAY" listen and that he "MAY" change his mind IF the people will listen. Does not conditional language like this suggest "may not," "might not" and "if not"? [Sometimes the Lord promises "may" when in fact it does NOT turn out the way he said it MIGHT. e.g. Ezek. 12:3. Is he lying?].
3) The Lord himself tells us he gave this message URGENTLY. This is God reporting to us in clear terms what his subjective state was like. If the outcome was foreknown, or predetermined, how could it have been urgent? [Note: when God tells us he might change his mind/intention, this is also a report on his subjective state. The question is, Do we believe him?]
4) If, for the sake of argument, God wanted people to believe that he DOES indeed change his mind -- viz. if God wanted to teach us that the future is partly open, even for him -- how could he do it in terms that would be clearer than what we find here? If this passage doesn't tell us that God WANTS US to believe that he changes his mind, what would a passage that did do this look like? If this passage isn't clear, what would constitute clarify? In short, if God explicitly telling us "Though I INTEND x, I may CHANGE MY MIND" isn't sufficient for us to BELIEVE that God may "intend x, but then change his mind," how could God possibly convince us of this truth if he wanted to?
5) At the very very least, should anyone be labelled "unbiblical" or "heretical" or "non-evangelical" if they read this passage (and others like it) and feel obliged, by the Word of God, to conclude: "I guess God really does change his mind"? Looking forward to some healthy, objective, open-minded interaction.
Greg Boyd
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/06/01 1:49 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Solid argument. Can't wait for responses.
Any takers out there?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/06/01 9:05 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Some Crucial Observations for Proper Interpretation
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As with Greg, so it is with me. Taking a few days away from the office to write some lengthy notes on Romans 9 is out of the question on Jeremiah 26. Though I believe I have a full and adequate reply in my mind, I do not have time to convey it in written form. At best, it will have to be spread over many shorter notes.
Having said that, this note will have some length to it only because I am including the full NRSV text of Jeremiah 26. I do so for three reasons: (1) to put the text in front of everyone, so everyone knows what the text says (especially for the lazy ones ); (2) so that anyone who wants to quote the text can copy it and paste it from here; and (3) so that I can highlight a few things I want to comment on in this note.
At the beginning of the reign of King Jehoiakim son of Josiah of Judah, this word came from the LORD: 2 Thus says the LORD: Stand in the court of the LORD’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you; do not hold back a word. 3 It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings. 4 You shall say to them: Thus says the LORD: If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law that I have set before you, 5 and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently—though you have not heeded— 6 then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth.
7 The priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD. 8 And when Jeremiah had finished speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to all the people, then the priests and the prophets and all the people laid hold of him, saying, “You shall die! 9 Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without inhabitant’?” And all the people gathered around Jeremiah in the house of the LORD.
10 When the officials of Judah heard these things, they came up from the king’s house to the house of the LORD and took their seat in the entry of the New Gate of the house of the LORD. 11 Then the priests and the prophets said to the officials and to all the people, “This man deserves the sentence of death because he has prophesied against this city, as you have heard with your own ears.”
12 Then Jeremiah spoke to all the officials and all the people, saying, “It is the LORD who sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the words you have heard. 13 Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you. 14 But as for me, here I am in your hands. Do with me as seems good and right to you. 15 Only know for certain that if you put me to death, you will be bringing innocent blood upon yourselves and upon this city and its inhabitants, for in truth the LORD sent me to you to speak all these words in your ears.”
16 Then the officials and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man does not deserve the sentence of death, for he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God.” 17 And some of the elders of the land arose and said to all the assembled people, 18 “Micah of Moresheth, who prophesied during the days of King Hezekiah of Judah, said to all the people of Judah:
‘Thus says the LORD of hosts,
Zion shall be plowed as a field;
Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins,
and the mountain of the house a wooded height.’
19 Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and did not the LORD change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!”
20 There was another man prophesying in the name of the LORD, Uriah son of Shemaiah from Kiriath-jearim. He prophesied against this city and against this land in words exactly like those of Jeremiah. 21 And when King Jehoiakim, with all his warriors and all the officials, heard his words, the king sought to put him to death; but when Uriah heard of it, he was afraid and fled and escaped to Egypt. 22 Then King Jehoiakim sent Elnathan son of Achbor and men with him to Egypt, 23 and they took Uriah from Egypt and brought him to King Jehoiakim, who struck him down with the sword and threw his dead body into the burial place of the common people.
24 But the hand of Ahikam son of Shaphan was with Jeremiah so that he was not given over into the hands of the people to be put to death.
I offer four simple observations that need to be considered if we hope to understand Jeremiah 26 correctly.
Purple highlighted words. It is worthy of note that Jeremiah is conveying to Judah what he specifically describes as this word came from the Lord. “What’s the importance of that?” you may ask. Well, simply put, this is what some might call anthropomorphism. Put into plain English, it is God speaking to humans in their own language conventions. More will undoubtedly be said about this later. But it is crucial to note that Jeremiah 26:1 draws this to our attention.
Red highlighted words. Perhaps Greg won’t mind a slight but altogether crucial qualification to his first point. Greg says, It seems the central point of this passage -- the point of God's speech to Jeremiah, Jeremiah to the official, and certain officials to the people -- is to encourage them to believe that God IS A GOD WHO WILL CHANGE HIS MIND. This is incomplete. I would suggest that Greg’s statement should have continued to say God will change his mind and not bring upon you the disaster he has announced, if you repent and no longer continue failing to heed my words to you as you have habitually done. In other words, the passage does not say God changes his mind, as such. Rather, the passage says God will change his mind about the disaster he threatens against you, if you change and heed my word, that is repent. This is stated plainly in verse 13--Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
Blue highlighted words. Take note how the priests, the prophets, and all the people understood Jeremiah’s prophecy. Does it not seem clear that they understand Jeremiah’s prophecy to be a word of doom and not of hope? Why do you suppose they understood it that way? Two statements in the text make it clear that they understood Jeremiah's prophecy as a word of doom: (1) They say, “You shall die! and (2) They say, Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without inhabitant’? Did they understand Jeremiah’s prophecy correctly? Were they mistaken concerning how they understood his prophecy? What do you think?
Brown highlighted words. What, ultimately, was the prevailing response to Jeremiah’s prophecy? Verse 24 indicates that the people would have followed through on their intentions to kill the prophet, unless Ahikam had intervened. Does this contribute anything to how we should understand Jeremiah 26?
These are a few observations that I believe need to be considered in any reasonable interpretation of Jeremiah 26.
Thank you.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
starslayer
01/08/01 7:36 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Wow! Great discussion! For introductory purposes—I was only recently introduced to this web site by a friend, who knows of my interest in theology. I have heard a few whisperings of this debate that you Baptists from the north have got going on and upon scanning the web site, my interest was snagged and I thought I might try my hand at being engaged by the characters here. Especially since I am interested in how God exists in the past, present, future and how that relates to what He knows. Thus, I will use Jeremiah 26 as my springboard. Thanks to Greg Boyd for the good topic starter.
First things first, however. I need to be informed of what the basis of this debate is about, before I open my big mouth. I’ve been directed to numerous helpful resources by Christus Victor web site on Open Theism. But I believe I come up short on the predestination side. Sir Lion-Lamb could you be of assistance? I know there are possibly a million slants to Calvinism out there and possibly as many on predestination. Could you direct me to some resources that you mostly concur with, that of course are relative to this dialogue? I have taken note of key scriptures you have referred to on the site.
Secondly, I would like to comment briefly on Greg Boyd’s 1st point on the passage. Greg Boyd speaks of a possible interpretation where God truly does as the passage says: God suggests there is a possibility that He will change His mind about the disaster he has planned. Greg Boyd suggests that this is actually the case with God—ontologically, non-anthropomorphically. The question I would like to ask is—Can we speak of God non-anthropomorphicly? The presupposition behind the question being that God the father is the (1) ultimate wholly other being (not human) (2) from whom we are separated from and we can do no better than to speak of him in anthropomophisms primarily because of those two conditions. Ultimately, we cannot speak of God non-anthropomorphically until we are again united with Him. Now we can speak of Jesus non-anthropomorphically, because Jesus was human and he was the union between mankind and God. But I believe we might have trouble speaking of God the Father in those terms. The Old Testament folks might have even more trouble speaking of God in non-anthropomorphic terms because they did not yet have Jesus or the Holy Spirit for that matter, although the glory of God came upon some who prophesied. Therefore it seems as though Sir Lion’s saying; “God speaks to humans in their own language conventions” is correct, prima fascia. This is not to say that we should not try to “know” God or speak of Him non-anthropomorphically, but it is to say that this is the best we can do. It is sort of like the linear algebra class I once took where we talked about 3rd, 4th, 5th and even infinite dimensions. We solved problems using these variables, but the reality is that I have no concept of an infinite dimension, although I calculated problems which gave me conclusions about this dimension. The only hole I can find in my own thinking here is that God the father, God the Son and God the Spirit are ONE and as Jesus said, “If you have seen me you have seen the Father.”
Is this a worthy matter of consideration?
Blessings from our Lord!
starslayer
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/07/01 11:13 PM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Greetings, Starslayer!
I surely hope you're not hunting Leo (the Lion, that is).
On your question about predestination, I should let you know that the fundamental point of disagreement I have with open theism is not that it is not Calvinism. I consider my Arminian friends (and I have many) to be on the same side I am on. So, I would prefer to keep the focal point of the debate off Calvinism vs. Open Theism. For, believe it or not, I do not consciously think of myself as a Calvinist in any of my theological discussions. Calvinism, for me, is not a position from which to argue. Rather, Calvinism is a historical-theological label that, at best, only describes but does not prescribe my beliefs. As to theological books that might describe beliefs that are fairly close to my own, I hesitate to direct you to anyone in particular. Generally, Reformed theological works such as Dabney, Berkhof, Warfield, Machen, would fairly accurately describe beliefs I hold dear.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
starslayer
01/08/01 8:34 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Sir Leo,
Thank you kindly for the response. Forgive the name—that’s what I was in my other life!
As for the info offered—Okay I can work with that.
Thanks for the clarification on your ..er ...stance. I prefer to have some wiggle room too when it comes to getting pegged. Truth is, all these theological labels are historical descriptors of thought patterns and I am aware of the generalizations. Perhaps then you would purrr if I very generally engage your position from a non-Open Theisty direction?
Many more blessings.
slayer
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/08/01 9:43 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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It appears to me that God never "changed" his mind. He was going to destroy them , IF they didn't repent. Just another conditional promise, albeit a negative one.
Could it be that God was using a technique often used with children, make the threat of punishment so immediate that a response was required?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/08/01 7:15 PM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Call me dull, but I don't see that anyone has so far answered the claim that Jer. 26 encourages us to think of God as changing his mind. OF COURSE he'll change his mind IF... But that is still changing his mind. He says HE INTENDED to destroy Judah. So, he must REALLY change his intention -- or he was lying in saying he INTENDED this. To "might-be-don" -- if God DID change his mind, how would it look different than it does in THIS PASSAGE (or Ex. 32:10-14)?
Re: the point that we can't speak about God non-anthropomorphically. No one seems to make this objection when classical theists say "God DOESN'T change his mind."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/08/01 9:47 PM
RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Beso's note says, Re: the point that we can't speak about God non-anthropomorphically. No one seems to make this objection when classical theists say "God DOESN'T change his mind." Hmmmmm! I do! Hasn't anyone been listening? I have made the claim that we cannot talk about God non-anthropomorphically. Indeed, when the biblical text says, God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (e.g., Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; etc.) the text is speaking in terms of anthropomorphism, for it is qualifying how we are to understand biblical portrayals of God in terms of the human quality of repentance. Change of mind is a human quality that corresponds to a God-like quality, but, of course, as Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 plainly state, however God changes his mind, it is not to be measured by or thought of being like a human changes one's mind. Rather, humans have the quality of mind-change because they are like their Creator.
Whether the Bible portrays God as loving, hating, angry, compassionate, choosing, rejecting, or whatever else, God is representing himself to us in human likeness. How else would God reveal himself to his creatures? His creatures know nothing of God apart from God showing himself to them in terms of things they know by virtue of the fact that God has indelibly left his imprint on everything he has made, especially human beings whom he made in his image and likeness.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
acts9_12out
01/09/01 5:13 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion,
I think your tactics are a bit unfair. Your whole argument is based on two passages that say "God is not a man that He should repent..." I can just as easily say, "Well, there are many instances where the Bible says God does repent, so there!" I don't think you can base your idea of who God is on two passages. You imply that since Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 say that God doesn't repent, then this is a constant we should use to measure God's inability to repent, be grieved, be sorry, etc... by, and interpret the passages that say He does repent anthropomorphically.
Two points here:
Did you know that John Calvin looked at 1 Samuel 15 in a similar way? He said that 1 Sam 15:11 and 1 Sam 15:35 (which say that God repented) were anthropomorphisms, and 1 Sam 15:29 (which says that God does not repent) means exactly what it says... Talk about manipulating Scripture to fit a presupposition...
Secondly, I hope you would agree that context is very important. Do we say, "Well, 1 Samuel 15:29 and Numbers 23:19 say that God does not repent, therefore, God never repents..." or should we look at the context of those passages and determine why God does or doesn't repent in certain situations? As already noted on the 1 Samuel thread, God does not repent of His decision to take the kingdom from Saul. He made His decision, and He will not repent and restore Saul to the throne. God did not repent of a specific, stated decision. Numbers 23:19 is similar. The short version is that God was being bribed. God, again, would not repent of a specific, stated purpose. If you'd like the long version, let me know... It's truly a wonderful story. If you'd like, read Numbers 23:19 in the context of the 22nd chapter through 23:19 to see what I'm talking about.
In conclusion, I think it's very important to look at the context of a passage to determine exactly what's going on. God repents over and over, and even grows weary of repenting (Jer 15:6). He did not repent in two specific situations...
In Christ, --Acts9_12Out
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/09/01 6:45 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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beso,
If God DID change His mind, it would look exactly like this passage.
I would offer this as a example of a mind change... I say, "I offer you this red pencil or this green one. Which you you like?". You say, "I'll take the green one". I say, "I've changed my mind, here's the yellow one".
This is how I see "changing my mind". I can't imagine how we could apply this kind of mind change to God. I'm I looking at the idea of changing your mind incorrectly?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
acts9_12out
01/10/01 10:03 AM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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don,
What if God does not offer any "options" for man? What if He says He will do something, and then does not do it? Would that be a change of mind? Case in point... The children of Israel fashioned the golden calf and began to worship it. Let's take a look at the discourse between God and Moses that follows...
________________
Exodus 32:9-14 (New King James Version)
32:9 And the Lord said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 32:10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation." ________________
There are no stipulations here. God told Moses to leave Him alone so that He might consume the nation of Israel. Did this happen? Let's take a look...
________________
32:11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: "Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 32:12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.' "
________________
In verse 12, Moses pleads with his Lord (who supposedly never repents) to repent of the harm He intends to do. How does God respond?
________________
32:14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
________________
God responded to Moses' prayer. He was angry with the children of Israel, had every intention to destroy them, and responded to Moses' prayer and repented of the harm He said He would do. What a glorious God we have!
In Christ, --Acts9_12Out
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/09/01 7:58 AM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Acts9_12Out,
I guess I'm having some difficulty with the idea that God "changes His mind". As I understand the OV , God knows all the possible moves Moses might make and surely must have a plan of action on His part for each of Moses possible responses. I usually change my mind in response to some new information, God must have known that Moses might plead for His people and been ready to respond in that situation. One would think that God's mind was made up before hand. If Moses does this, I'll do that. If Moses does this, I'll do this other thing. As I see it God's mind was always made up about what He would do if we respond in certain ways.
He doesn't always enumerate all the options to us in every encounter, but I think that repent and be saved is an implicit option in all of God's dealings with us .
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/09/01 8:43 AM
RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Acts 9_12,
So you don’t think I’m being fair with Scripture! Hmmmmm! Perhaps you should read my note more carefully. I affirmed precisely what the text of 1 Samuel 15 affirms. God presents himself to us in 1 Samuel 15:11 & 35 as changing his mind concerning Saul as king. Yet, in the same chapter (1 Sam 15:29), God also assures us through Samuel that he is not to be assessed or measured by the way humans change their minds. However God changed his mind concerning Saul, it is not to be compared to the way humans change their minds. Didn’t I affirm this?
Furthermore, didn’t I affirm that all we know concerning God is known because God reveals himself to us anthropomorphically? I don’t believe you have begun to grapple with much of anything I said in the note to which you replied. For I said,
Whether the Bible portrays God as loving, hating, angry, compassionate, choosing, rejecting, or whatever else, God is representing himself to us in human likeness. How else would God reveal himself to his creatures? His creatures know nothing of God apart from God showing himself to them in terms of things they know by virtue of the fact that God has indelibly left his imprint on everything he has made, especially human beings whom he made in his image and likeness.
I didn’t see any evidence that you have reflected upon these things I said.
It is readily apparent that both Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 do precisely, in context, what I said they do. Again, I quote my own words.
Indeed, when the biblical text says, God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (e.g., Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; etc.) the text is speaking in terms of anthropomorphism, for it is qualifying how we are to understand biblical portrayals of God in terms of the human quality of repentance. Change of mind is a human quality that corresponds to a God-like quality, but, of course, as Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 plainly state, however God changes his mind, it is not to be measured by or thought of being like a human changes one's mind. Rather, humans have the quality of mind-change because they are like their Creator.
You may think I’m cheating. Fine! Charge me with cheating as you already did. But I believe you are cheating with the biblical text. Everything in Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 have the clear and obvious appearance of being qualifiers that govern how we are to understand God’s self-portrayal as changing his mind. He does not change his mind the way humans change their minds. Nothing, absolutely nothing, in either text suggests what you and open theists want the texts to say, namely that it was in these two instances that God did not repent in two specific situations. That is hardly what the text suggests. You imposed that restriction upon the text. Nothing in either text warrants your conclusion.
Perhaps I won’t convince you. So be it! But I assure you that you are not convincing me in the least. Sorry! But I am convinced, until demonstrated otherwise, that I correctly understand 1 Samuel 15 and Number 23 and Genesis 6 and Jeremiah 26, etc., etc. I have not fount anything in this forum or elsewhere to move me in the least. That, of course, does not mean that I concur with how other non-open theists explain these two passages, such as Bruce Ware. For I do not agree with Bruce Ware. Yet, it seems you think I do. Perhaps that's because you haven't read my notes on this matter carefully enough. May I suggest you read my note again, more carefully this time? Thanks.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Baaaaaaaaaaah!
Lion-Lamb
P.S. Short version. Long version. It doesn't matter! I've read and re-read and examined and re-examined every published and numerous unpublished open theist explanations of Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29. Not one has any convincing element to them.
P.P.S. May I ask why you call yourself Acts 9_12?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/09/01 7:05 PM
RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion, hope you're sitting down (you probably are since this is coming over the internet). But, get this... I actually AGREE with you on something. Hmmmmm.... I better recheck my thinking.
You say, "Humans have the quality of mind changing because they are like their Creator". And "God doesn't change his mind the way humans do" -- that is the purpose of Num.23:19. AMEN.
But these statements DO assume that God DOES change his mind -- in some sense. I don't see that the Doc or Sanders or any other Open Theist would fight you on this. Now we just need to articulate the sense in which he DOES change.
I suggest: God DOES change his intentions (since many of these passages specify the intention that changed). But unlike humans, God never changes his mind for imperfect reasons. Whenever he changes his mind, its out of perfect motives.
Agree?
If so, we must frame this post. THE FIRST TIME LION AND BESO HAVE EVER AGREED.
But, you know me, I'm not an "optimistic" person (recall the ambulance analogy on the Trinity thread). So I'm betting I'm off here.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/09/01 7:23 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Beso,
I'm savoring the moment of agreement, no matter how small, how short, or how insignificant.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
01/09/01 9:41 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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It's satisfyingly suspicious, isn't it.
Where correct or not, the APPARENT agreement IS significant.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/10/01 1:11 PM
RE: RE: RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion Lamb confuses me. He agrees that God changes his mind -- indeed, that we change our mind because we are made in the image of God who changes his mind. Yet he says that none of the texts that say God changes his mind say "what Open Theists want them to say." But Open Theists only want them to say what Lion Lamb says they say: God changes his mind. Of course God doesn't change his mind the way humans do... "he's not a man that he should repent." But he DOES change his mind.
Whatever else it means, it seems that CHANGE of MIND means at least the denial of UNCHANGING MIND. But THIS is what the traditional view of foreknowledge asserts. God's mind, intentions, plans etc... are eternally unchanging.
ps. This site ROCKS!!! VERY informative, stimulating and (sometimes) aggravating. Not your typical chat chat stuff. Bravo Christus Victor
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/10/01 1:53 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Lion-Lamb wrote:
P.S. Short version. Long version. It doesn't matter! I've read and re-read and examined and re-examined every published and numerous unpublished open theist explanations of Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29. Not one has any convincing element to them.
What is equally fascinating is that those who contend 1 Sam. 15:29 to be categorical ignore verse 11 of the very same chapter that reads: "It repenteth me [IOW, I've changed my mind] that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments."
Now, the interesting thing about premises purported to be categorical: If you can show one exception, you disprove them.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Plebe
01/10/01 11:22 PM
RE: Jeremiah 26 : Does God Want Us To Believe He Changes His Mind?
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Great thread, thanks lion.
'If the word came from the lord'is a case of God stooping down to reveal somthing at our level, and it means so much more on his level,
I'm wondering if when God gives us truth it is truer on his level?
Isn't truth truth?
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