 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologi | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
archive
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 10:44 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Mephi2K
02/01/01 2:04 PM
Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok. Here's another thing that ANYONE can answer to. I don't want expressly philosophical, biblical, or theological treatments. Again, I just want some HONEST, gut responses.
What do YOU personally feel is so important about humanity possessing libertarian free will AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT? In other words, in spite of any and all reasoning to the contrary, why do you personally feel that libertarian free will is 1) true, 2) necessary, 3)conducive to YOUR Christian faith? Why is human agency and the power to choose, as Lion and I have discussed them, NOT enough for us to live full lives as human beings and as Christians? As far as I'm concerned, there HAS to be something there. I'm personally convinced it's not by reasons of logic nor argumentation that people stick to believing in it. Maybe I don't see it, but I'm desperately trying to understand. So again, to sum up,
WHY IS LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL SO IMPORTANT?
Holla at cha boy,
Mephi2K
PS: I am asking that NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE critique anyone else's thinking or reasoning that is placed on this thread. (Lion's got my back on this, I know...) You won't hear a peep from me, I give you my word! I want an atmosphere on this thread where everyone feels that they can answer FROM THEIR HEARTS without fear of being attacked or barraged with questions they cannot answer. (Whether or not the perception of attack is justified or not is beside the point) Since this is the intent, I'm humbly asking for EVERYONE to please participate. (Springs, Trosie, Beso, Brandon, Skater, all of y'all) I need to know this, cause frankly, it's a friggin mystery to me.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/01/01 10:49 PM
RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, for me, its important because without it, we are not free to choose and, as such, are not completely responsible for the actions we take. I would like to add, "inspite of any and all reasoning to the contrary" for you, Mephi2K. Just because you are convinced that reasoning is on your side, don't neccessary make it so. And no amount of asserting as such will make it so either. John 17:3 Harold I would also add that the will to freely choose is assumed in judging criminals. We assume they could not do what they do by the simple act of choosing not to do it. Plus, I believe, regardless of assertions to the contrary, that all people live as if they have free will (lib will, that is, I hate spelling that word out), i.e. the ability to choose freely.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/01/01 11:13 PM
RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi,
Well my good friend! I guess you now have your answer to your question: Why is libertarian free will so important? It's important just because it's important. Hmmmmm! Why can't you and I get away with that kind of reasoning? We'll have to try it sometime. It seems to work for others.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/02/01 12:47 AM
RE: RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher! !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LL: I'm glad to see that simplicity stumps you. Oh well, the gospel is simple, but I rather like it...John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/02/01 12:49 AM
RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it sure didn't take long to dispel the spirit of the first post.
I thought you said Lion had your back on this one Meph?
Sorry I haven't been on much lately. Life has been getting in the
way. I appreciate the sentiment behind the opening of this thread.
Thanks for your contribution WD.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
02/02/01 9:36 AM
RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My view of God has always been such that if I am nothing more than a robot acting out Gods choices for my life, so be it. It takes away nothing from my sense of choosing my way. His Word makes it plain that I am worthy of nothing more. Although I cannot fully articulate my position, I believe that we are born dead in sin and unable to choose God. Total depravity if you will. Aside from the urging of the Spirit, free will will gain me nothing as I will ALWAYS choose against God. Once God has given life through Christ, I'm now able to choose God.
There, I said it.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/02/01 10:52 AM
RE: RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher! !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey LL: doesn't this one bother you? Or is it okay for those tow your line to simply state what they believe without sarcastic comments? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/02/01 2:14 PM
RE: Lighten up!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To All,
Lighten up! Ironic tone is not sin!
A sarcastic appeal for reasonable evidence to support assertions has its place. Just 'cuz I forgot to put a smiley face doesn't mean it wasn't done with humor.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/02/01 3:16 PM
Cmon, Lion...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lion,
My man, I hear what you are saying, but your statement that could constitute an implicit critique there. Let's keep this open as possible. I don't want anyone having reason to get cold feet for speaking up in here. Any reason at all. So, thanks, Writerdad, for your reply. It is appreciated. Let's keep it going. Everyone is welcome, so please everyone speak up.
Thanks,
Mephi2K
PS: I hope this doesn't constitute a breach of my "not a peep" promise. I thought long and hard about it, and I decided to put this. I just wanted to nip any snags in the bud, ok? Lion, still nothing but love for you, mi compadre! And you know this...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
02/02/01 4:59 PM
RE: Cmon, Lion...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi,
Acknowledged! I had no intention to curtail any discussion.
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/03/01 12:17 AM
RE: Cmon, Lion...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephia2: I actually shortened my response because I thought you were looking for just quick opinions on the subject, sort of drop in the bucket responses. I hope I was right. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/04/01 3:11 PM
Need More Contributors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo, peeps,
Come on, gang. I need more input. You don't have to say that much on this issue but please say something. I know there's a gang of people reading these posts, but not posting. Indulge me, ok? Show your love, now...LOL
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/04/01 10:43 PM
RE: Need More Contributors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mephi2K: Hey, if I may indulge you (and at the risk of having you repeat yourself), my question would be to you: why ISN'T liber...fre will important? I am curious why you don't think it's important? John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
02/05/01 1:55 PM
Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meph said:
Ok. Here's another thing that ANYONE can answer to. I don't want expressly philosophical, biblical, or theological treatments. Again, I just want some HONEST, gut responses.
What do YOU personally feel is so important about humanity possessing libertarian free will AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT? In other words, in spite of any and all reasoning to the contrary, why do you personally feel that libertarian free will is 1) true, 2) necessary, 3)conducive to YOUR Christian faith? Why is human agency and the power to choose, as Lion and I have discussed them, NOT enough for us to live full lives as human beings and as Christians? As far as I'm concerned, there HAS to be something there. I'm personally convinced it's not by reasons of logic nor argumentation that people stick to believing in it. Maybe I don't see it, but I'm desperately trying to understand. So again, to sum up,
WHY IS LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL SO IMPORTANT?
and
Yo, peeps,
Come on, gang. I need more input. You don't have to say that much on this issue but please say something. I know there's a gang of people reading these posts, but not posting. Indulge me, ok? Show your love, now...LOL Hey Meph,
I haven’t been able to give an intellectually adequate answer on most of these threads because, for personal reasons, I am very limited in my resources at the moment. Unlike you, I’m not as good at remembering what was posted where, when, etc. Although I am pretty good at remembering references such as certain books, authors, and where I would need to dig up the information when I need it. However, I do grasp what you have written in the more philosophical posts, but because of my committments to freewill theism I disagree with what you write.
Like I said before, a lot of your argumentation is tight. If you start out with certain premises, in many cases your conclusion is right on. In other instances, you do a lot of philosophizing and theologizing, but the argumentation, although apparently tight, doesn’t follow through. That is, it doesn’t make for a coherent whole. You may have a lot of tight or right arguments, which as individual units follow through, but the whole that you come up with in the end, does not compute. Such is the stuff of argumentation I guess.
My gut response (how do you do bold again?)
First, when you ask for a “gut response”, I am not so sure what to make of this. If anything, I would think you mean something that is more “experientially based”, my feelings, intuitions, etc. It seems you want a gut response for an intellectual question. I don’t know if that can be done. Are you comparing apples and oranges or what?
Either way, my gut response is what I have experienced for many years and as a result is something embedded in me, a part of who I am. That is hard to go against. My experience leads me to believe that I am self-determining. Either, I am not self-determining and I perceive (wrongly, according to you and Calvinists) that I am and therefore the problem lies with my perception (could this be some kind of cosmic trick or deception also?) or I genuinely am self-determining. I know, that was a run on sentence.
This is why I have asked about the differences between “control” and “influence” regarding the ontological state of the person. The question goes back to when I was seventeen years old, questioning the “deception” in the Garden (something I actually obsessed about and went into a depression over, which I will talk about in the “Your Story” post). I mean, if they were “deceived” or “tricked” by Satan, why should God hold them responsible? They weren’t "forced" or "coerced" or "determined" to listen to Satan and carry through his desires. They knew better. They *chose* to listen to Satan over God. They knew the Word of God. Their sin was in not taking God at his Word. Trusting and loving him. Much like when you say we should worship God for who he is. There are many voices (influences, or external causes, as you would call them) trying to persuade us to do otherwise. But this would not be honoring to God.
On the more intellectual/philosophical side…part of the reason I think libertarian freewill is philosophically tenable is that without it, we really are robots.
I know you have the “parameters” of your maze that “God set up” which cause you to conclude that God ultimately (though not immediately) is responsible for evil (which I find abhorrent). However, this would be the case if one accepts your “human agency theory” or “soft determinism”, (which *are* the “parameters” or the “rules,” see, your arguments do follow through) which posits sufficient and necessary causation in regard to the agent. unlike compatibilism, which holds that “scientific determinism” is *completely true* while holding *at the same time* that humans are genuinely free or libertarian freewill, or indeterminism is *completely true.* Compatibilism cancels itself out.
As much as you reject indeterminism and compatibilism on the basis of your human agency theory, that is, partly on the basis that it doesn’t jive with experience (because you see the experience as factors outside and factors inside the agent as *causes* (I see them as influences where we don’t really know how they “precisely intersect” or “play on” the human agent.) I am persuaded that you still fall back into the determinism of which you are trying to avoid. Why?
Because even in your human agency theory the ontological state of the agent is determined by causes prior to or outside themselves of which you admit! And who in the beginning, set these “parameters” or “rules” or “causes?” God.
In other words, there really are no genuine free creatures, only determined robots. Yet you “sneak” in there or “grant” freewill enough to the agent, even if he is a conduit or doorway for antecedent causes. Hence the title, “Human Agency Theory.” So even you accept freewill, even if you don't realize it me thinks.
You wrote that you thought it was ludicrous when we equate “soft determinism" with "fatalism" (having to do with prayer).” Again, it is only ludicrous if one accepts your human agency theory. OT’s don’t, and we are persuaded even your human agency theory (not compatibilism) is really determinism in sheep’s clothing. So, when it comes down to it, God is not only ultimately responsible for evil. He is actually “forcing” or “coercing” or “determining” his creatures to do what he abhors.
God set up the “parameters.” But not in the way your human agency theory maintains. The question was asked before and I ask it again. Could God create an open universe if he wanted where we have freedom like he has, only a little more restrictive?
In closing, here is a question for Shine150. Isn’t this a classic case of Mephi2k and/or LL wearing their philosophical glasses to close to their face again? Are they not interpreting the "parameters" through the the grid of the "parameters" itself?
Brandon
Editing for the umpteenth time.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/05/01 10:09 PM
Libertarian freedom -- the most important fact in the world!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's so important bout libertarian free will? Ah, Mephinski, my polish brother, I'm so delighted you asked. tak'n a brake from my insane life which isn't very fun right now cuz ... well, none of your business.... but tak'n a break, i shall answer thee fourfold, look hither
but first a word from our sponsor
message 1: i take "libertarian" freedom to be "freedom to determine one's own action, to go one way or another, to not be wholly determined by antecedent causes.
message #2: i take "compatibilistic" freedom (libertarians wicked step sister) to mean "freedom that is compatible with agents being fully determined by antecedent causes. i trust this is roughly what Mephi means by these categories. Meph?
and now for our main attraction
reason #1)we all live like we possessed libertarian freedom. so true. we don't live like we're genetically determined -- or have any other form of merely "compatibilistic" freedom. Man, my DOG has "compatibilstic freedom." It can eat "if it wills to." but dude, we all live like we are free in a sense dogs are not. WE DETERMINE OUR DESTINIES. believing in libertarian freedom is thus important because its the only view that squares with reality. and yo know moi, i'm a "naive realist." but i also think God doesn't deceive and we're made in his image.
reason #2) without libertarian freedom, the 1,457 passages in the Bible that call upon us to make a choice FOR or AGAINST God are nonsense. the 2,648 verses that speak of people resisting, rebelling against, thwarting, grieving,etc. God's will make the same amount of sense.
reason #3) i'm getting warmed up. without libertarian freedom, the passages that speak of evil COMING OUT OF OUR OWN HEART make zero sense.
reason #4) if there aren't wills other than God's that determine things -- if all other "wills" are "compatible" with God's will -- then evil has to be traced back to God's will. pure and simple. so far as i can see, all the talk of primary and secondary causes, etc. is sophistry that doesn't move even one inch toward avoiding this conclusion.
reason #5) if libertarian freedom makes no sense -- if we only have a "compatibilistic" view of freedom -- then we can't say God could have refrained from creating the world. if we say God COULD have refrained from creating the world, we obviously have SOME conception of libertarian freedom -- freedom to go one way or another -- otherwise we couldn't have just said this about God. follow? way cool.
reason#6: i'm uneducated but very smart. so take my word for it.
i rest my case. you CHOOSE (what??? really???) whether you think (or we're destined to think?) if am right or wrong. but as you deliberate about this, notice that you assume I AM RIGHT in your act of deliberating.
God bless the queen
till then
Shine at 150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/06/01 9:14 PM
RE: Libertarian freedom -- the most important fact in the world!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S'up dudes and dudettes,
No new comments on this thread. How's bout we lift the ban on critical interaction and get this babe rock'n?. i'd like some critical insightful erudition interaction if possible, specially on my last four fold comment last night that actually turned out to be six cuz i'm a numerically-challenged imbecile.
Mepho-maniac-man, may i ask of you what thou hast beseeched of me. What do YOU find so important about COMPLIMENTARIAN FREEDOM? And would you please respond to my four (aka six) points above.??
ps. don't let this out to anyone cuz it may sound sort of.. well, effeminate. but i secretly admire you. no, totally. you're like this kind of hero to me. don't get me wrong. i think you're screwy in the head on theology... so much brillance in defense of the hopelessly indefensible. but that aside, you're incredible, prolific, fast, bold in the face of much opposition, funny... i love you man. (can't have my Bud). when i grow up, i want to be mini-Meph (but with an openness theology).
preciate ya
Shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/06/01 9:45 PM
Yo Meph.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 seconds after posting my last note on this thread, i went over and read Meph's conversion experience to openness theology. his reasoning is a work of art. (if he's bust'n my chops he's in trouble).
in the light of THAT, my last posting is pretty irrelevant.
note to all: read his argument. way tight. the man says it.
shine Jesus shine
at 150
with your Father'glory
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
rmitchell
02/20/01 8:36 AM
RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I think about libertarian free will is only the product of my finite, fallen, and fallible mind and is thus really only opinion. What Scripture says is what should be looked to. The real issue here is one of prior commitment to human ethical autonomy over against the sovereignty of God.
Take a quick look at Isaiah 10:5-19. Here God sovereignly predetermines the volitional choices of the king of Assyria (Sennacherib), and, communicating in advance the thoughts of Sennacherib to Isaiah, refers to the Assyrian as a tool in His hand (vv. 5-6). This is not in accordance with Sennacherib's "libertarian free will" (v. 7). The pagan monarch, in his mind, is most freely engaging in his acts (vv. 13-14.) And God judges him for his assertion of free will, i.e. his pride and arrogance (vv. 15-16.)
So in this passage what we have is a clear Scriptural example of divine predetermination juxtaposed with human moral culpability for the predetermined actions. The volitional choices are predetermined, but completely uncompelled. Predetermined, yet free.
Now anyone who wants to assert libertarian free will, or human ethical autonomy, will have to deal with this and other fragments of Scripture. If the Open view of volition is to be maintained, then this has to be called an exception and declared non-normative for other human-divine interactions. But I suggest to you that this passage gives us a glimpse of how divine sovereignty and human volition are worked out. We are not told how it works out, but *that* it works out is clearly asserted.
So once again, human opinion is really irrelevant; what Scripture says is what should inform our views. Any precommitment to human autonomy should not trump the Word.
Kindest Christian regards,
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Geebob
02/20/01 3:39 PM
RE: Please Help Your Local Completely Stumped Theologian/Philosopher!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have two reasons for valuing libertarian free will
1) as shine says, there is evil in the world. If everithing was perfect and hunky dory, then a blueprint world would be fine by me. But since there is evil in the world, we need a source for things such as Evil other than God. If there was nothing other than God before the world was created, and if nothing can come into existence without an act of creation, we need to allow that in God's creation, there are little creators aka in his image that can take responsibility for anything that is not to be attributed to God. If God is good, hates evil, and does not cause evil, evil fits the bill of that which must come from the little creators.
2)this is a more direct answer to your question since you want to know what the value of free will is and sape goat for evil makes it seem like it's no good to begin with.
If God has libertarian free will then it isn't reasonable to assume that there is something intrinsically good about it? Albeit it can abused but what evil thing isn't a Good thing that has been abused and corrupted? Lucifer, sex, rock n roll: they are all good things that can go awry (I know, lucifer is already there).
How is libertarian freedom good? It is a crucial part of CREATivity. Is God a great Creator? then his Creation is great. If God is "all that" then his actions are good. Not only that but they reflect him. what better way than to make creatures "in his" image aka "like him" in some small but important way. what better image of a creator is there than a little creator or one who originates something.
Also, it enables a kind of relationship that would not be possible otherwise. God and man are both creators, thus they can empathize one another in a kind of empathy that is not possible with programmed creatures.
We find excitement in novelty and I think this is a part of the Joy God must feel in us.
of course the potential for a downer is great. as God opens himself up for such intamcy, there is the risk that he opens himself up for hurt. As we can be for God by an act of Libertarian free will we can also be that much against him.
| | Back to Top | | |
 | Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:54 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|