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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
SteveHarris
01/12/01 4:50 AM
question
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Hi to all. I just discovered Christus Ministries yesterday, and sent some long rambling note to the website. This morning I discovered the discussion board, and hope to contribute to the various discussions. I do have a few questions. I'm Catholic, and am only too aware of Augustine's influence (which is why I found "God at War" to be so compelling), and have been since reading some of Peter Brown's books. I enjoy reading about the different branches of Christianity. In order to help orient me, is Christus Victor Baptist? Arminian? By the way, I am in no way here to argue for the Catholic Church. I'm here for the scripture discussions. Thanks.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/12/01 8:11 AM
RE: question
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Steve, I'm so thankful that you have joined us, and I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
I'm a literature student and all my favorite authors are Catholic. I think Catholic sacramental theology is much more conducive to artistic inclinations than the Protestant fundamentalist aesthetic (anti-aesthetic?) of my upbringing. I have since moved to a much more moderate (and healthy) position, and the writings of godly and gifted Catholic men and women were a big part of that.
So anyway, I just wanted to say welcome aboard.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/12/01 10:29 AM
RE: RE: question
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Dear ghost-dog-girl, thank you for the welcome. I know literature pretty well -- so hopefully I can add some stuff worth discussing. I hope to chew over this board a bit more this weekend. Which Catholic authors are you attracted to? Flannery O'Conner? Graham Greene? Sigrid Undset ("Kristin Lavransdatter")? These are all modern, I know. I'm just now finishing up a good book on T.S. Eliot called "Words Alone" by Denis Donague, which I think makes a good implicit case for Eliot being a Christian poet even before his conversion. While rereading some of the poems, I discovered what I felt was a clear allusion to George Herbert's Love (III) in a stanza of Eliot's "Gerontion." Anyway, thanks again.
best,
steve
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/12/01 11:15 AM
RE: RE: RE: question
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Yes, I am a Flannery O'Connor fan. Also, Graham Greene, Shusaku Endo, and Annie Dillard (who recently converted to Catholicism I think). I've read some of Eliot, but I think it will take several rereadings before I feel confident discussing him. I've recently read some Dante (the Inferno and La Vita Nuova) and Julian of Norwhich (which was great because I was reading Dillard and Denise Levertov at the same time and they both refer to Julian frequently). I was very fascinated by Charles Williams' reflections on Dante's Beatrific vision, partly because it is so foreign to my own conception of and relation to God. I also got a little bit into Eliot's own fondness for Dante and his attempt at terza rima (spelling?) in the Four Quartets. I haven't heard of Sigrid Indset or Denis Donague, but I have read a little of George Herbert and I am familiar with other metaphysical poets, esp. John Donne. One of the (many) things that interests me about him is the effect his conversion from Catholicism to Anglicanism had on him. Another favorite poet of mine is Gerard Manley Hopkins.
So anyway, as you look over the site, so far the discussion has mainly centered around an intramural evangelical debate about the validity (especially biblical) of "the open view." You are probably familiar with open theism since you have read God at War. Anyway, don't feel constrained to this topic--feel free to introduce whatever subject you want--something on Augustine might be fun.... Later, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
non-theo-techie
01/12/01 2:22 PM
RE: question
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SteveHarris,
You wrote: In order to help orient me, is Christus Victor Baptist? Arminian?
Answer: It's really Greg Boyd. He is a Sr. Pastor of Woodland Hills church in St. Paul, MN. He is a professor of theology at Bethel College, a Baptist General Conference (BGC) college. Woodland Hills is part of the BGC system. Greg is also an aplogist, as you know by reading his book (you shoud read the rest of them). Christus Victor is Greg's outlet for ministry on the net and whatever else it accomplishes. For the most part it seems to be designed to discuss the open view along with other theological interpretations.
What do you think of the Catholic church's stance on Mary?
-ntt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/12/01 4:19 PM
RE: RE: question
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Thanks. When you say, what do I think about the RCC's stance on Mary. Well, that covers a big area, and one I don't really follow all that closely. Jesus provides enough of a focus point. I am troubled by talk of "Co-Redemptix" and stuff like that. I find that the Eastern Orthodox handle Mary in a better way -- in other words, a mystery, full of grace. Theotokis -- the God-bearer. She was holy. Beyond that, we have little to go on.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/12/01 4:23 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: question
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I will get back to your response in the morning (basketball practice w/ one of the kids). Endo is good -- "The Silence" really was a fine read. I didn't know that about Dillard, though I did hear that Levertov became Catholic shortly before her death. Undset won the Nobel prize for literature some time back, primarily for "Kristan Lavransdatter."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/14/01 8:34 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: question
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G-D-G, wow, I'm still absording your question(s) above in another thread. Great stuff. As far as Donne goes, well his conversion (as of late) has been interesting me. If you know of something to read -- let me know. I've seen it touched upon (as far as I've read at least) in Bald's bio on Donne. Apparently Donne was turned off by the Jesuits, but I'm uncomfortable with that statement until I read more. As far as the Metaphysical poets in general, Penguin has a wonderful anthology out with a super introduction written by Helen Gardner. Ditto for the "Essential Herbert" with a fine intro by Anthony Hecht. Eliot was attracted to the Anglican church (at least in part) due to the membership of its past poets. Hopkins is great. "Wreck of the Deutchland" is one of my favorite poems. "Carrion Comfort" is also fine -- in a grim way. Dante, is of course huge. His influence on Eliot is far-reaching. After reading the book I mentioned above -- I think Eliot was a religious poet right from the start -- following Dante's trajectory, with the earlier poems (Prufrock, Gerontion, Hollow Men) starting out in "Inferno." Arguably, Eliot even has a Beatrice figure in "Ash Weds" (though I could point to similar figure in the "Wasteland." I may return to this some more -- or post above. Below is a snatch from a poem by Geoffrey Hill (from his collection "Canaan"). I like Hill, and he's probably considered the most important Christian poet now writing. His message is pretty dark, dualistic (as you can see from the quote -- though I saw him read, and he insisted that his job as a poet was to pose a question, and this particular passage was not meant to stand for his position. I believe the subject of this poem was the martyrdom (as Hill sees it) of the bomb plot conspirators (against Hitler). A number of them took on the task for religious reasons. An interesting question: Would killing Hitler be a Christian act? Anyway good talking with you.
"Evil is not good's absence but gravity's
everlasting bedrock and its fatal chains
inert violent the suffrage of our days." -- Geoffrey Hill
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/14/01 2:48 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: question
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Hey, Steve.
You asked:
"Would killing Hitler be a Christian act?
Mephi:
Deitrich Bonhoeffer, German theologian and writer of the magnificent work, "Ethics", thought so. He was involved in an assassination plot against Hitler, which obviously didn't come off. He ended up being arrested and executed by hanging just about 4 days before the American forces liberated the prison where he was located. So sad.
Blessings,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/14/01 4:49 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: question
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Steve, I haven't read Bald's biography, but I do have the Helen Gardner's penguin edition you mentioned. John Carey deals with Donne's apostasy estensively in his biography. I don't remember him mentioning Donne's frustration with the Jesuits as a key factor--it had more to do with the severe persecution of Catholics during Donne's time. If he had remained Catholic, he would probably have been martyred. In spite of the persecution, Donne's decision was by no means flippant, and Carey notes that Donne read extensively about the issues and implications before making his choice. Even so, Carey suggests that Donne may have second-guessed his decision--which avoided martyrdom but also alienated him from his faith and family--and that this may have contributed to Donne's preoccupation with death in his poetry, sermons, and daily life.
I'll have to check out Geoffrey Hill--haven't read anything by him. Are you a Shakespeare fan? I am partial to the tragedies.
P.S. This summer I went on a retreat at St. John's Monastery where Kathleen Norris wrote Cloister Walk. A monk introduced me to lectio divina for the first time. I hope to make a habit of going back there.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/15/01 4:38 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: question
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Mephi, I have no problem w/ killing Hitler being a Christian act. I've only read a little bit of Bonhoeffer -- and that was a long time ago. I am aware of the circumstances of his death. As I recall, there is a good (short) account in the novel "The Very Rich Hours of Count von Stauffenberg" by Paul West. Of course, there is also the "White Rose" group as well. The whole question of the Christian response to Hitler continues to haunt. Best,
Steve
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ghost-dog-girl RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: question ----------------------------------------------------------------------
G-D-G, your bio is probably more recent. I went back and looked after your posting. Bald suggests that Donne may have been frustrated w/ the Jesuits due to the death of his brother (due to plague) -- who was thrown into prison for harboring a secular priest. Bald hints at the possibility that perhaps this priest may have been betrayed because of infighting among Jesuits & secular priests. I'm tempted to call that a thin reed -- but for Nichols' recent bio on Marlowe ("The Reckoning") which makes a strong case for a hit job on Marlowe in Mistress Bull's Tavern. The atmosphere was pure poison & intrigue. Who knows? Whatever the case, Bald also refers to Donne's simply wanting to be a Christian. Bald also writes of a systematic study by Donne, weighing each side. I haven't finished the book -- so I'm unaware of his later misgivings.
Hill is a difficult poet -- but I enjoy him. His whole thing is martyrdom.
Yes, I like Shakespeare. And same w/ the Tragedies. I checked out at the library yesterday "Shakespeare's Imagery" by Spurgeon. Don't know if I'll read it, but I tend to check out several books, and then like wet noodles, toss them against the (reading) wall to see which one sticks. Have you ever seen the Kurosawa films based upon Shakespeare? "Ran" is Lear, and "Throne of Blood" is Macbeth. It's interesting to see how the power of the stories can go beyond the beauty of Shakespeare's language.
Kathleen Norris. I've not read her, but I'm familiar with her. I told a poet friend of mine (who has read Norris) about this site. Perhaps she'll swing by. "Lectino Divina" I've not heard -- though I'm assuming it is based upon the Liturgy of the Hours. I am a fan of "The Divine Liturgy" of the Eastern Orthodox. I've heard both Russian and Greek. Beautiful. Eastern Orthodoxy interests me probably due to the novels of Doestoevsky -- which in turned pulled my toward Christianity.
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