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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Mephi2K
01/11/01 3:22 PM
For Theologians, Philosophers, and People Who Like To Talk About Cool Stuff
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Yo!
Doc, you've inspired me! I wouldn't have thought about allowing divergent avenues where people of different inclinations, theologically or philosophically speaking, can talk about stuff. (I think that all people are theologians and philosophers. Some are just may be a tad more developed than others. Nothing wrong with that.) It allows for everyone to be heard, without too much hassle. At any rate, I figure that maybe some other people would like to kick their game without concern for length, depth, or type of subject matter. (JoeMoore, express yourself, man! No fear!) I know that a windbag like myself needs that option. LOL Thus, I'd like to have this thread for that purpose.
Possible Initial Questions :
--What do you think about the effect of postmodern epistemology on Christian theologizing?
--What is "truth", according to your personal definition? What is your basis for that claim?
--Do you find much of the reasoning on this board to be based on mainly premodern, modern, or postmodern thought? What is the basis for your answer?
--Why are we discussing the validity or lack thereof of open view theism? Does it really matter in the end analysis?
--Does pragmatic effect and emotional solace take a significant role in the open view discussion. If so, why? If not, why not?
I would also like to incorporate Doc Boyd's questions...
--What do you think of the debates that you've read on this site?
--Which positions or participants did you feel made strong cases, and why?
--Which positions or participants did you think made weak arguments, and why?
Or make up your own stuff. Dowhutchalike! Don't feel intimidated. Let your light shine and so forth. However, the only thing asked is that you speak honestly and make a point that you would be willing to substantiate. If you want to spill voluminous tomes or if you just want to give a quick point, spit your game. All are welcome. I repeat, all are welcome. Laypeople, Clergy, Reformed, non-reformed, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox,"classicalists"...whatever. (For any of you people hangin' on those fringes) Just make sure you're saying something that other people can engage without going to West Texas to do so. 'Kay?
Throw down, peeps. It's all on you. Do your thing and always remember...uh..um...well...imagine I just said something memorable, ok?
Your increasingly and ravenously affectionate Christian brother (Gotta love C.S. Lewis ),
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/12/01 3:16 PM
How Now Shall We Proceed?
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Since no one is typing here, I guess I'll put what I have to say here. This was posted on a thread today:
"I'd like us to steer clear of any discussions outside of this, especially the heavy-headed ones that Lion-lamb et. al. are involved in. I'd hate to think that we'd need a moderator to make this thread useful."
I looked up "et. al." in the dictionary. I found out that it means essentially "and others". Hmmm... I pondered that for a while. I wondered "Who could the 'and others' be referring to?" I kept the thought and reflected on what's gone on before. This was after this was posted:
...and no lion roaming around seeking who he may devour."
and this:
"Nice to get away from the super-head discussions. This seems more real."
and other stuff like this that's been said...
Mephi:
Now, I'm not the swiftest of people but I would say that the "et. al." mentioned by a poster and the "theologically trained people" that Doc talks in his non-theologians board about may include me. I'm a straight up kind of person and I figure we should settle this like adults. I realize that some posts cannot be said to stand for everyone in the room. But I do notice a type of hostility that seems to be growing. (It may be my own perception, but that's what I see.) Bottom line: Am I going to get an eviction notice or what? This is what I'm hearing implicitly from the attitude of a growing number in the room.
"This heady discussions are too involved. Some of the people here post too long on esoteric things that don't really allow us to talk on a real level. All this theoretical stuff is ok, but sheesh, why won't they let up? And the people who are deeply involved with them seem to be not so understanding anyway. They seem to get so tiffed about being misunderstood. We need a "theologian-free" zone where normal folks can talk about what's on their hearts and minds on these issues, WITHOUT fear of being criticized by the so-called "theologically astute."
Call this melodrama. Call this plain incorrect. But this is what I'm getting from the attitude I've been seeing. Notice, I realize that not everyone feels this way. Springs has been very kind in her evaluation of me and I'm most grateful to her. (She's wonderful in her own right) But if my discourses seem to be more of a source of heat than light and obscurity rather than clarity, (as I'm getting the impression), I'd like to know about it. I'll say this straight out. If some of you want people like Lion and myself to leave or quietly and passively deal with these issues, please just come out and say it. We're all too old to be playing games of insinuation. Heck, I won't be upset. It's been a good run. I met some cool, dear people in here and have had some good conversations. There won't be any hard feelings. I'd wish everyone the best in Christ and ask the same. If some form of environment is developing here to the extent that reasonable, yet forceful discussion is not possible anymore, then let me know. I'm the type like this. I'm not going to fade into obscurity by being brushed off to the side, as it were. If you don't like my style and want me gone, I want to hear it point blank. It's the least that we Christians can do for one another to be completely forthright about things like this.
As I've stated before, I have tried to be a listening and active participant in a discussion that I believed was to promote useful dialogue for mutual understanding as well as to keep persons distinct from ideas in my engagement of the issues here. I believed in the credo about "satifying the mind" and I wanted to work towards that satisfaction, while in the process perhaps helping others to do the same. But (and again, this is my perception) things seem to be going sour. So, Doc and others, I speak for myself (and possibly others) when I tell you this: Don't marginalize me. Ask me to leave, keep my opinions to myself, or something of that nature. But don't marginalize me by implicit means. I'm a big boy. I assure you I can take it. If my eventual eviction is NOT on the agenda, then I would ask that we would all refrain from making some of the statements that have been made here. "Heady" stuff may seem intimidating to some of you, but it is only used oppressively if one ALLOWS it be. No one is out to get anyone else, and I'm sure as heck not trying to isolate anyone. Asking poignant questions is not the same as belittlement. Asking for clarification is NOT the same as attacking someone. Any criticism of ideas that you may receive from me is a far cry from judging you or trying to deprive you of your very dearly held faith that you find satisfying. Believe it or not, I learn a lot from all of you and respect you highly, though I may disagree with some of your thinking. I believe in the elitism of ideas and the egalitarianism of people, not the other way around. Everyone has a right to express their opinion and do so without fear of censure. But not every idea has the same credibility or weight and that's where critical, fair, and sometimes assertive discussion comes in. To separate the better ideas from among the good ones and to critique THOSE ideas, in turn, to see if they were indeed better in the first place.
Having said all this, I want some responses. I want them to be honest responses about how you feel about what I've said. (Doc, this would especially include you ) I think that possibly Lion would like to see this too. Let me know what's going on. Shall I start reaching for my hat or what?
Ready for Whatever,
Mephistopheles 2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/12/01 3:37 PM
RE: How Now Shall We Proceed?
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I say a hearty Amen! to what Mephi has eloquently expressed.
The kinds of comments to which Mephi refers remind me of a witty saying: Instead of raising your voice you should strengthen your argument.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
01/12/01 4:14 PM
RE: How Now Shall We Proceed?
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No, you should not start reaching for the hat Meph2k. I love your contributions on this discussion board. I like your honesty, playfulness but also acumen. A few on the non-theologians thread have expressed frustration toward Lion-Lamb, but I certainly wouldn't want him to leave either. Lion gets frustrated when he feels someone's not working hard enough to get his point (including moi) and he says so. I can understand how some who aren't confident in their theological training feel intimated by this. Others, though not intimidated, just have trouble keeping up with the discussion.
I just want a place for a wide varity of people with a wide variety of interests to dialogue with one another. So, I encourage participating on this thread as well.
peace to you
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
non-theo-techie
01/12/01 4:42 PM
RE: RE: How Now Shall We Proceed?
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As you can tell by my name, I got involved when the "nontheological" thread was started. When I found this website/discussion board. I found myself intrigued by the discussion and very intersted in the dialogue. However, I didn't feel very "qualified" to contribute based on the somewhat esoteric nature of the discussion. Yes, I am the one whom you quoted mephi, and I'm not suggesting that you be evicted. The "others" do include Lion-Lamb, as well as, Greg Boyd. I found it refreshing to be invited to a discussion with a non-theological basis. I guess that it doesn't have to be and cant be truely non-theological, I would like to see it in more plain language, and with less verbage. It's hard to really engage when there's 2-3 pages of response especially when things seem to get wrapped up in theological terminology. There are a lot of laymen or amatures out there. I'm one of them.
-ntt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/12/01 4:56 PM
RE: How Now Shall We Proceed?
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Mephi, I read Springs' words to you and I concur with her appreciation of you whole-heartedly. To her statements I would add that I am always interested to read what you have to say, and I really feel like you take the time and energy to understand the people you respond to--at least that's been my experience in dialogue with you. I especially appreciate how you take the time to rephrase someone's words to reflect your preception of what they have said. Very effective.
As for feeling marginalized, let's put this in perspective. I think it's fair to say that we've all taken hits--there was the comment about super-heads in which you felt implicated (personally, I was a little hurt because I didn't get the impression that this included me, although I've been part of discussions involving you and LL--I guess I'm just a wanna-be-super-head) and accusations of malapurtness (or whatever), and then there were those lovely sentiments expressed about women in general. It happens. We all deal with it to some degree and we can either let it hold us back or we can forge ahead.
Anyway, I would be greatly disappointed if the only other person who incorporates comic books into their philosophical musings, who digs hip-hop, and who has seen Ghost Dog and found it tolerable took a hike.
Let me take advantage of this opportunity to say that I know I am guilty of an occasional non sequitur, and I suspect this bugs you probably more than anyone else (because you try to keep the discussion focused on the topic at hand more than anyone else). Just wanted to let you know I'm aware of this and I'm working on it. Ciao, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/13/01 11:43 AM
RE: How Now Shall We Proceed?
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Ok.
I'd like to thank y'all who gave me some feedback in this area. I feel that I've been given the clarification that I need. So, let's just keep it moving! Thanks, again.
Peace and Love,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
01/13/01 5:24 PM
RE: For Theologians, Philosophers, and People Who Like To Talk About Cool Stuff
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Hey not so fast bro,
I want to tell you I love you too. And I fess up here and now that Lion didn't say I had nothing to contribute until I wrote a bratty post, and when he did, he did it so well I thoroughly enjoyed it. Perhaps at times he seems a bit overbearing but on the whole he's pretty fair.
Christus Victor's slogan has the 'head' and the 'heart' in it. I think we'll see a lot of the latter in the new thread. I will enjoy it as I did when I read you preaching like Boyd but I need the challenge of the other. Time will tell if the laymen can indeed be more gracious than the profs.
I'm glad you are staying. I really missed you after the holidays.
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/13/01 11:14 PM
RE: How Now Shall We Proceed?
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Mephi said: "If you don't like my style and want me gone, I want to hear it point blank. It's the least that we Christians can do for one another to be completely forthright about things like this."
Mephi, before we end this discussion thread I want to add that I really appreciate your openness and honesty in bringing this issue up. I have always liked the fact that you seem to be courteous when responding to people while still maintaining a sense of humor I appreciate having you in this room.
I am one of the people who can at times feel a bit too intimidated to respond, in many of the threads, due to the caliber of discussion that takes place. Often times I enjoy just reading the postings, (even when it gets a bit 'over my head'), because I feel that I am benefiting from the knowledge that I obtain from reading the various postings. I LOVE seeking and learning about God hence I appreciate this site! For those of us who have not had formal theological nor philosophical training I think it was a neat idea that Greg started the thread "For Non-Theologians", however, I pray that there will never be a division in this room between the "theologically trained people" and us "non-theologians". I have found it so SAD and IRRITATING when people have made brassy and inconsiderate responses to others.
Bottom line -- I appreciate your contributions, Mephi
Peace to you bro!
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
01/15/01 8:57 AM
RE: For Theologians, Philosophers, and People Who Like To Talk About Cool Stuff
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Cool Stuff? Cool!
Anybody wanna talk about FN? If you know who "FN" is that'll qualify you. If you don't, here's a clue: He died insane.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
01/15/01 9:20 AM
RE: RE: For Theologians, Philosophers, and People Who Like To Talk About Cool Stuff
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I definitly would like to see more about FN coming from EV Christians. Sometimes I think that one of the greatest successes Satan has had in this last century is convincing the subculture of EV christiandom that FN was not a true prophet of God! Plus almost all of my heroes died either from going insane and committing suicide by or being assassinated so that also counts in his favor.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/15/01 9:39 AM
RE: For Theologians, Philosophers, and People Who Like To Talk About Cool S
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TGB, you're back! I will have to pass on the FN discussion because the only thing I've read by him was his theory of tragedy--a very small slice of his very early work.
I'd like to address Mephi's quesion: "Do you find much of the reasoning on this board to be based on mainly premodern, modern, or postmodern thought? What is the basis for your answer?" I find much of this discussion to be decidedly MODERN. Just as modern liberal protestants might appeal to experience as a foundation for their presuppositions about faith (i.e. John Hick), modern conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists appeal to the Bible as their foundation. The trouble with modern foundational thinking is that it assumes the universality and infallibility of its foundation, but all foundations must be interpreted and are subject to critique. Also, productive conversation becomes nearly impossible unless you share the same foundation. That's all I'll say about that for now, I guess.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
01/16/01 1:58 PM
FN it is then
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Wislawa-
I'm trying to figure out "Wislawa." Wisconsin plus, eh...? Never mind.
I admit to knowing little about FN (as compared to the people I've met who DO know him). I've read a couple of intros on him and his works, and "bits and pieces" of his writings, which given the manner of his writing is as good a way to read him as any I suppose.
I became interested in reading FN a few years ago. One of my closest friends for more than 20 years, and once a dedicated and genuine follower of Jesus, ended up abandoning faith in God (along with the notion of absolute Truth, etc.) after several years of college and grad school. He is still a very close friend, now an athiest (with a few moments of agnosticism here and there).
So I told him I'd be interested in meeting the man responsible for talking my best friend out of faith in Christ. He introduced me to FN. So I'm a little surprised to found out now that FN was a genuine prophet of God. Interesting. I guess my friend has sorely misunderstood FN.
Let's continue.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
01/16/01 3:23 PM
RE: all the FN fun
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Well o.k. I know I’m pretty much alone on the whole FN was a prophet of God business. Let’s just say that I tend to develop a certain level of fondness for a lot of people that I read and FN is downright lovable some of the time. I’m especially attracted to him because we’re not supposed to be you know. I had just heard too many warnings not to read him and how evil he was and that perhaps he was the Anti-Christ and stuff like that and it just made me want to read him all the more. The more that I genuinely seek truth and ask the questions that are ‘off limits’ and quote the sources that are ‘off limits’ and use the words that set of trip wires with lights and sirens like ‘tolerance’ or ‘post modern’ the more at odds I feel with the Evangelical Christian community. I was pleased to know that several of the Evangelical Christian scholars who I have know have expressed a similar feeling of alienation from time to time. Perhaps your friend feels this too, I wouldn’t know? It has really helped me to find a circle of friends who know a ton and with whom nothing is off limits. Whatever else FN is he is defiantly authentic and church folks sometimes are less than authentic and other times downright phony. All I know is that when this gets me down FN cheers me up because hey who else could be more at odds with Christianity? To tell the truth I was hoping you knew more about FN than I do, I’ve read a handful but there’s much I haven’t touched yet. What of him are you reading? Right now I’m in the “The Birth of Tragedy” the early work to which G-D-G refers. I am a little serious about him being a prophet. The Christianity that he rejected is to a degree a false Christianity and some of his writings (he is a mixed bag to be sure) seem more Christian than that which he rejects. All I know is that by empathizing with FN it has given me some common ground with my friends who are atheists and for whom FN strikes a cord. He is easy to affirm-he’s a good writer, he’s funny as all get out, he affirms life and philosophy and joy more than the average bear. Anyway I have to go hunt thru a junkyard for some art supplies so I’ll get back to the good ol’ puter later. hopefully more people who know more than either of us do will join in the FN fun.
Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
might-be-don
01/17/01 7:24 AM
RE: RE: all the FN fun
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Wislawa,
An interesting sidenote ( I think ) , in a roundabout way FN was partly responsible for pushing me over the edge to Christianity. While taking LSD one night, a friend of mine invited me to his house to listen to his new stereo. I grabbed one of my favorite pieces of music and headed over. He was in the process of copying some of his favorite music to tape and thought that he might have enough time to add my song to the tape. The list of songs read like a journey of life from no intellectual thought to the grandest of being. As he started the tape to record my song , he kind of looked up at the ceiling and said god I hope there's enough time for this. At that moment something clicked in my brain that said "God is real" (I had been reading the bible for kicks a few days before ). The song was the opening theme for Strauss's "Thus Spake Zarathustra " , the themes subtitle is "Of the Divine, man's awaking of God" . More popularly know as the title theme for 2001 A Space Odyssey . I was floored that the last song on the list led to God. That night I believed.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/17/01 1:11 PM
RE: RE: RE: all the FN fun
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I've always felt that one of the best antidotes to FN was FD. "Crime & Punishment", "Brothers K."
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
01/17/01 2:30 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: all the FN fun
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I've always felt that one of the best antidotes to FN was FD. "Crime & Punishment", "Brothers K."
Interesting, Steve. Can you elaborate a little? I'd appreciate it.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ModesofThought
01/20/01 7:55 PM
A short response...
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Dude,
Now you're talkin!
From your "Possible Initial Questions:"
Meph:
--What do you think about the effect of postmodern epistemology on Christian theologizing?
Modes:
Deconstruction is a necessary step in true reconstruction as required by those of us who claim to be "protestant" or in some sense "reformational."
Meph:
--Do you find much of the reasoning on this board to be based on mainly premodern, modern, or postmodern thought? What is the basis for your answer?
Modes:
LOL!!!! Are you serious? Modern to the core. As far as I can tell, solidly more than half of the claims made here are expected to function transcontextually without first seeking common ground with the target audience. In other words, claims are made with the sort of certainty appropriate to foundationalism without any regard for the postmodern intuition that such foundations have failed the test of universal validity.
Meph:
--Why are we discussing the validity or lack thereof of open view theism? Does it really matter in the end analysis?
Modes:
It is under unwarranted attack from both the BGC locally and the ETS nationally. Both of these attacks reflect the fallacies and arrogance commonly involved in "modernity's epistemology" pristinely. The defense must be sustained under the conditions of such a modern epistemology because of the context and so those categories win the day.
Meph:
--Does pragmatic effect and emotional solace take a significant role in the open view discussion. If so, why? If not, why not?
Modes:
Depends upon the character of the discussion. As per above, those will have to take a back seat when dealing with the white male minds of the BGC and ETS (almost completely homogenous in this regard) because they do not qualify as relevant categories. Pastorally, many churches have benefited from the insights gained from Open Theism particularly as they apply to those categories. In the former context, this reality seems to count against plausibility somehow, presumably because it doesn't maintain as strongly the apophatic tendencies of the old white male intellectual elites. The fact is, people are experiencing God and lives are being transformed. So yes, the pragmatic effect and emotional solace will contribute to the success of Open theism just as revivalism was spurred on by charismatic occurrences both in Acts and in American church history. There is a revivalism flavor that Open Theism carries forward which is no small factor.
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