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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 6:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
TGB
02/10/01 10:46 AM
Heresy?
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Hi all (hopefully Mephi included!)-
A friend recently described the OV as "blatant heresy." I'd like to know if those of you who disagree with the OV agree.
How often has the accusation of "heresy" been used regarding the OV and WHO has leveled the charge?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ghost-dog-girl
02/10/01 11:26 AM
RE: Heresy?
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Ardel Caneday has called the open view heretical and idolatrous because of its literalization of figurative language about God. Thomas Oden has also called it heretical. World Magazine has also identified OV as heretical. GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
02/10/01 1:09 PM
RE: RE: Heresy?
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The Open View has never been officially labelled a heresy. St. Augustine refers to the idea of an open future as a "heretical idea" in his dialogue with Evodius (sp?). I don't know about other individuals. So far as I have been able to tell, no one called Calcidius a heretic for holding this view in the 5th century. Nor did anyone call L.D. McCabe, Billy Hibbers, Adam Clarke, or W. Brents heritics, or their views heretical, for holding this view in the 19th century. To the contrary, all these people were generally admired and esteemed in their day. But more work needs to be done in this area.
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
02/10/01 1:45 PM
RE: RE: RE: Heresy?
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Doc-
I haven't read anything from Piper on the OV, including your interaction with him. Has he ever used the word "heresy" or synonymous language to describe the view?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
RevivalTheology
02/10/01 2:09 PM
RE: Heresy?
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Cal Beisner has labeled what has come to be called the Open View as "heresy", along with some others I can't think of off the top of my head.
The Doc is correct that L. D. McCabe was never viewed as a "heretic." In Methodist circles in the late 19th century, what McCabe termed "divine nescience of future contingencies" was discussed in the pages of the denominations newspapers.
BTW, for those interested in McCabe's work, you can find them online here and here.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
02/10/01 2:46 PM
RE: Heresy?
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I’ve only heard a few of the ‘big names’ refer to OT as heresy. As far as I can tell most folks the anti-openness movement have been very careful not to use the word heresy and for that I give them credit. But I have heard a ton of laypersons refer to OT as heresy. Most of these people don’t know about the history of the view and how a handful of believers have always believed it. I’m getting into cultural theologies a little bit and have discovered that many Christians in Africa and India have always been OT. OT is not new!!! The only thing about it that is new is the charge of heresy against it!!!
Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
A_Pilgrim
02/10/01 3:11 PM
RE: Please identify sources
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G-D-G,
You identified one magazine and two people who have identified OT as heretical. Would you please identify the sources which support your claim so that I may rely on the statements made by these people in context and not your own assessment of them? Please give web addresses or the names of any books or magazines. That would be academically worthy of you. I made a mental note that Dr. Boyd did not mention any of those whom you identified.
Thank you,
Pilgrim
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Geebob
02/10/01 3:26 PM
RE: RE: Heresy?
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Wislawa, Where did you learn that many africans and indians are open theists? I must know. This is gold!
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
02/10/01 3:55 PM
RE: RE: RE: Heresy?
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Interesting isn’t it? Check out “The Color of God: The Concept of God in Afro-American Thought” by Major Jones. He concentrates on African American theology but makes connections to African culture that influences how someone will view God. To some degree the sub-Saharan African culture, which hasn’t been influenced by Greek thought as much as our culture has been, has influenced African American theology and allowed it to sidestep many Greek assumptions that we take for granted. Also check out the work of Adrio Konig. He teaches at the University of South Africa and grew up with Dutch Reformed theology but in South African tribes. He is not exactly an open theist but he’s close enough to get reformed people worried. He has also influenced a number of OT scholars. Greg references him a lot in God at War and Sanders studied under him in South Africa and did his dissertation under his guidance. Konig is interested in freeing theology from Greek patterns and asking how other cultures might do theology differently. As for Indian theology I’m looking for some books myself so if you find them let me know. I based my comments on info given me my missionary friends who told me about a community surrounding a church called St. Thomas I think it was??? Anyway this church is the oldest one in India and it was rumored to have been established by Thomas the disciple of Jesus (or whoever the church is named after if I’ve got it wrong?). Because it is so old and somewhat isolated from the Western theological tradition it has been able to avoid a lot of the doctrinal issues that sprung up in our tradition. And guess what, they take Open Theism to be intuitively true (of course they don’t call it OT). I trust my friend who told me this but I’m looking for a better documented source so that I can lend some more authority to it than just ‘someone told me once…’ If I find any text on it I’ll send it your way.
Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
GregBoyd
02/10/01 3:59 PM
RE: RE: RE: Heresy?
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Major Jones, in Color of God, argues that the open view has been the view largely assumed in the African American tradition. (I footnote this in God of the Possible, I believe). He argues that the African traditions have not been as influenced as the Euro-traditions by the Augustinian/Hellenistic philosophical tradition. I have always suspected there was an ethnic aspect to the Openness/Non-Openness debate, but do not how to demonstrate this. So, Geebob, I would be very interested in any authorities who can substantiate the claim that some, if not many, people of Africa and India hold to some form the the Openness view of God.
Thanks
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
02/10/01 4:02 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Heresy?
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Wow Wislawa, we pretty much TIED on our postings. You were getting the Greek stuff from ME, who was getting it from Jones and Konig. Okay. On the India connection, keep us posted.
Thanks,
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/11/01 7:47 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Heresy?
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If anyone can tell me where I might be able to purchase a copy of Major Jones's book, I'd surely appreciate it. Been looking for one since reading Greg's book. Thanks1 writerdad
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