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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Triskal
03/31/01 12:57 PM
If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings!
I am new to this message board, and this is my first post. The subject of this post is a very heated one, which I have debated with several people. My question is, if the source of an object is evil, does that make the object itself evil? I have attended several seminars by Bill Gothard in which he states that an object's source determines whether an object is good or evil. I do not share in this belief because it implies that certain instruments and styles of music are evil, just because their sources are evil. But this question certainly is very debatable and one which requires attention.
Let me start by inquiring as to the origin of the drum: The drum began as a way of calling forth evil spirits in Africa. They would use it to summon up spirits of the dead and worship them with it. Do we want to be using something that was intended to be used to call forth evil spirits? This raises others questions; if something is used in the wrong way, does it make it evil? What determines whether or not an object is good or evil? There are three ways to determine if something is good or evil:
1. Try the spirit - 1 John 4:1
2. Try the statements - 1 John 4:3; 1 Timothy 6:3
3. Try the fruit - Matthew 7:16-20
If an object can be used for both good and bad, how do we determine whether it is good or evil? How does the source of an object effect the object itself?
Just a couple of questions for thought.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/01/01 6:56 PM
RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the discussion board Triskal.
Have you ever heard anyone say "Kazoontight" (however its spelled) after someone sneezed?
-- I've read the phrase was used among pre-Christian Germanic tribes to seal a persons soul after they sneezed, for they believe the sneeze left them open to the intrusion of evil spirits.
Do you ever shake hands with someone?
The ritual started in the Napolean wars as a way of assuring a stranger you were not armed.
Ever refer to the days of the week, or most months of the calendar, by their English titles?
Pagan pagan pagan pagan. Monday = mercuries day. Thursday = Thors day. Sunday = Sun's day. etc....
Ever celebrate Dec. 25th?
No no no. Goes back to ancient Greece where the winter solstice was celebrated, preceeded by 12 days of drunkan orgies ("on the 12th day of Christmas my true love gave to me, a ...."). Later this day was combined with the supposed birth of the god Mithra.
Did you know that the Israelites practiced circumscions?
-- even though the Canaanites (those nasty wicked people) had been doing it for centuries before the Hebrews!
My point is this. a) the reason why something starts sometimes has little to do with the reason why the thing continues. b) MANY things we take for granted in our culture come from pagan roots which, according to many Christians, would itself make them evil. So...
if the origin of something determines its nature
we better lock ourselves in a closet
to get away from it all.
Now, On the drum thing...
as a drummer, I'm here to testify that THEY ARE GOD's FAVORITE instrument. Absolutely!!! You read about cymbals, tamborines and other LOUD hitting instruments in the bible. (YOU NEVER READ ABOUT KEYBOARDS, LET ALONE MILLION DOLLAR PIPE ORGANS, BY THE WAY!). I think anti-drum sentiment came from up tight rhymically challenged white missionaries who got frustrated cuz they couldn't find the downbeat on funky African rhymnes. So, instead of repenting of their carnal lack of rhymn they decided they were holy for having no beat so rhymn must be of the devil.
Well, something like that anyway.
So I really really would not worry much about how a practive or thing originated. I consider only the present motivation of the person using it.
For what its worth
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/01/01 7:30 PM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, the great philosopher Thomas Aquinas came to my mind as I was reading this thread. He said, "All truth is God's truth." I kind of think this would apply here as well.
For what it's worth,
trosie <><
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/02/01 8:26 AM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc, you were on a roll yesterday. Must have had a great morning service!! What a great response. The study of music and its origins, as well as attitudes toward it, is a fascinating thing. Did you know the Minuet was originally thought "decadent"? Oh yes, and many of those wonderful old hymns we now sing were thought to be quite vulgar in their day. Several of Wesley's hymns were set to beer drinking ditties. Scandal of scandals.
We europeans tend to emphasize the second and fourth beat while Africans tend to emphasize the first and third (or did I get that backwards?). Further, it seems that European music emphasizes tonality and African music emphasises rhythm. Put the two together and you get some pretty incredible music!!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
04/03/01 5:44 AM
set the captives free (and objects)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome Triskal,
For the most part I don't think objects are evil it's rather how they are used. And it doesn't sound like you lack discernment in that area.
People that are into spiritual warfare say that an object fashioned for the purpose of an idol could have a wicked spirit attached to it. Or they say a locality or property could be the domain of evil spirits. Just as most church properties belong to the kingdom of God. Through the centuries there has been some eebb and flow. Property reclaimed for God or loss to the other side. At any rate He who is with us is more powerful than he who is in the world so any object or place that has evil spirits attached can be cleaned up by the power of Jesus name. So even if you had a drum that was manufactured to conjure spirits it could be cleansed blessed and dedicated to God.
Well everyone,
I'm outta here for spring break.
fight the good fight
hasta luego
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 4:40 PM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Dr. Boyd, that was most helpful. I agree with your points about evil sources. I am also a drummer and I agree with you about it being a great instrument! There's nothing I like more then going down to the drum set and just playing away a jazz beat. But another of my questions is; how do you define something that is evil? And are there such things as evil objects, or is it only the use of them that can be evil?
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 4:41 PM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Dr. Boyd, that was most helpful. I agree with your points about evil sources. I am also a drummer and I agree with you about it being a great instrument! There's nothing I like more then going down to the drum set and just playing away a jazz beat. But another of my questions is; how do you define something that is evil? And are there such things as evil objects, or is it only the use of them that can be evil?
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 5:01 PM
Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the name Thomas Aquinas was brought up, I just thought i'd point something out that not many people are aware of. Did you know that Thomas Aquinas was very much responsible for bringing humanism about. He believed that while man must rely on God in spiritual matters, that man is perfectly capable of using his mind to accomplish anything. That while man's spirit and body are fallen, his mind is still perfect. This was a dangerous belief that led to the worldview of religious humanism, which then was turned into secular humanism. If you'd like to know more about this you should check out the book "Mind Siege" by Tim Lahaye and David Noebel. Just a brief point I thought i'd share.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/03/01 5:18 PM
RE: Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting fact, Triskal. I had mentioned Thomas Aquinas because for some reason his quote of "All truth is God's truth" came to my mind as I was reading through this thread. I guess I was applying this statement to the thought that all things can be good and they can be evil depending on how they are used. The book sounds interesting.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 10:48 PM
RE: RE: Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, your point was a very good one. Thank you for sharing it with me, it was very helpful indeed. The book I mentioned just came out a few weeks or so ago and it's a very good source on the topic of worldview and how America has been overtaken by the secular humanist philosophy. You'd be surprised just how much it has infected such things as the media, the public school system, and the government. Check it out when you have the time.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/03/01 11:07 PM
RE: RE: RE: Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Triskal said: "You'd be surprised just how much it has infected such things as the media, the public school system, and the government. Check it out when you have the time."
I think it would be feasible to add the field of PSYCHOLOGY to this list of things being infected by secular humanism as well! This gives us Christians something to think about and work toward having an impact in changing -- eh? TNT is a great option instead of secular psychology which brings God into the picture of emotional healing and recovery! It gets people back to living out life the way God intended (from the inside out and upside down).
Just thought I'd throw a little plug in there for TNT
trosie <><
Message
Triskal
03/31/01 12:57 PM
If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings!
I am new to this message board, and this is my first post. The subject of this post is a very heated one, which I have debated with several people. My question is, if the source of an object is evil, does that make the object itself evil? I have attended several seminars by Bill Gothard in which he states that an object's source determines whether an object is good or evil. I do not share in this belief because it implies that certain instruments and styles of music are evil, just because their sources are evil. But this question certainly is very debatable and one which requires attention.
Let me start by inquiring as to the origin of the drum: The drum began as a way of calling forth evil spirits in Africa. They would use it to summon up spirits of the dead and worship them with it. Do we want to be using something that was intended to be used to call forth evil spirits? This raises others questions; if something is used in the wrong way, does it make it evil? What determines whether or not an object is good or evil? There are three ways to determine if something is good or evil:
1. Try the spirit - 1 John 4:1
2. Try the statements - 1 John 4:3; 1 Timothy 6:3
3. Try the fruit - Matthew 7:16-20
If an object can be used for both good and bad, how do we determine whether it is good or evil? How does the source of an object effect the object itself?
Just a couple of questions for thought.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/01/01 6:56 PM
RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the discussion board Triskal.
Have you ever heard anyone say "Kazoontight" (however its spelled) after someone sneezed?
-- I've read the phrase was used among pre-Christian Germanic tribes to seal a persons soul after they sneezed, for they believe the sneeze left them open to the intrusion of evil spirits.
Do you ever shake hands with someone?
The ritual started in the Napolean wars as a way of assuring a stranger you were not armed.
Ever refer to the days of the week, or most months of the calendar, by their English titles?
Pagan pagan pagan pagan. Monday = mercuries day. Thursday = Thors day. Sunday = Sun's day. etc....
Ever celebrate Dec. 25th?
No no no. Goes back to ancient Greece where the winter solstice was celebrated, preceeded by 12 days of drunkan orgies ("on the 12th day of Christmas my true love gave to me, a ...."). Later this day was combined with the supposed birth of the god Mithra.
Did you know that the Israelites practiced circumscions?
-- even though the Canaanites (those nasty wicked people) had been doing it for centuries before the Hebrews!
My point is this. a) the reason why something starts sometimes has little to do with the reason why the thing continues. b) MANY things we take for granted in our culture come from pagan roots which, according to many Christians, would itself make them evil. So...
if the origin of something determines its nature
we better lock ourselves in a closet
to get away from it all.
Now, On the drum thing...
as a drummer, I'm here to testify that THEY ARE GOD's FAVORITE instrument. Absolutely!!! You read about cymbals, tamborines and other LOUD hitting instruments in the bible. (YOU NEVER READ ABOUT KEYBOARDS, LET ALONE MILLION DOLLAR PIPE ORGANS, BY THE WAY!). I think anti-drum sentiment came from up tight rhymically challenged white missionaries who got frustrated cuz they couldn't find the downbeat on funky African rhymnes. So, instead of repenting of their carnal lack of rhymn they decided they were holy for having no beat so rhymn must be of the devil.
Well, something like that anyway.
So I really really would not worry much about how a practive or thing originated. I consider only the present motivation of the person using it.
For what its worth
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/01/01 7:30 PM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, the great philosopher Thomas Aquinas came to my mind as I was reading this thread. He said, "All truth is God's truth." I kind of think this would apply here as well.
For what it's worth,
trosie <><
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/02/01 8:26 AM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc, you were on a roll yesterday. Must have had a great morning service!! What a great response. The study of music and its origins, as well as attitudes toward it, is a fascinating thing. Did you know the Minuet was originally thought "decadent"? Oh yes, and many of those wonderful old hymns we now sing were thought to be quite vulgar in their day. Several of Wesley's hymns were set to beer drinking ditties. Scandal of scandals.
We europeans tend to emphasize the second and fourth beat while Africans tend to emphasize the first and third (or did I get that backwards?). Further, it seems that European music emphasizes tonality and African music emphasises rhythm. Put the two together and you get some pretty incredible music!!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
04/03/01 5:44 AM
set the captives free (and objects)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome Triskal,
For the most part I don't think objects are evil it's rather how they are used. And it doesn't sound like you lack discernment in that area.
People that are into spiritual warfare say that an object fashioned for the purpose of an idol could have a wicked spirit attached to it. Or they say a locality or property could be the domain of evil spirits. Just as most church properties belong to the kingdom of God. Through the centuries there has been some eebb and flow. Property reclaimed for God or loss to the other side. At any rate He who is with us is more powerful than he who is in the world so any object or place that has evil spirits attached can be cleaned up by the power of Jesus name. So even if you had a drum that was manufactured to conjure spirits it could be cleansed blessed and dedicated to God.
Well everyone,
I'm outta here for spring break.
fight the good fight
hasta luego
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 4:40 PM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Dr. Boyd, that was most helpful. I agree with your points about evil sources. I am also a drummer and I agree with you about it being a great instrument! There's nothing I like more then going down to the drum set and just playing away a jazz beat. But another of my questions is; how do you define something that is evil? And are there such things as evil objects, or is it only the use of them that can be evil?
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 4:41 PM
RE: RE: If the source is evil, is the object evil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Dr. Boyd, that was most helpful. I agree with your points about evil sources. I am also a drummer and I agree with you about it being a great instrument! There's nothing I like more then going down to the drum set and just playing away a jazz beat. But another of my questions is; how do you define something that is evil? And are there such things as evil objects, or is it only the use of them that can be evil?
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 5:01 PM
Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the name Thomas Aquinas was brought up, I just thought i'd point something out that not many people are aware of. Did you know that Thomas Aquinas was very much responsible for bringing humanism about. He believed that while man must rely on God in spiritual matters, that man is perfectly capable of using his mind to accomplish anything. That while man's spirit and body are fallen, his mind is still perfect. This was a dangerous belief that led to the worldview of religious humanism, which then was turned into secular humanism. If you'd like to know more about this you should check out the book "Mind Siege" by Tim Lahaye and David Noebel. Just a brief point I thought i'd share.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/03/01 5:18 PM
RE: Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting fact, Triskal. I had mentioned Thomas Aquinas because for some reason his quote of "All truth is God's truth" came to my mind as I was reading through this thread. I guess I was applying this statement to the thought that all things can be good and they can be evil depending on how they are used. The book sounds interesting.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/03/01 10:48 PM
RE: RE: Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, your point was a very good one. Thank you for sharing it with me, it was very helpful indeed. The book I mentioned just came out a few weeks or so ago and it's a very good source on the topic of worldview and how America has been overtaken by the secular humanist philosophy. You'd be surprised just how much it has infected such things as the media, the public school system, and the government. Check it out when you have the time.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/03/01 11:07 PM
RE: RE: RE: Thomas Aquinas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Triskal said: "You'd be surprised just how much it has infected such things as the media, the public school system, and the government. Check it out when you have the time."
I think it would be feasible to add the field of PSYCHOLOGY to this list of things being infected by secular humanism as well! This gives us Christians something to think about and work toward having an impact in changing -- eh? TNT is a great option instead of secular psychology which brings God into the picture of emotional healing and recovery! It gets people back to living out life the way God intended (from the inside out and upside down).
Just thought I'd throw a little plug in there for TNT
trosie <><
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