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Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 3:51 AM (GMT -6) |   |
BBBCanada
11/18/00 8:34 AM
Open View and Hell
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As some of you know, another controversy is in the brew. The Bible's teaching on hell. Some of those within the open view ranks are conditionalists in their views of hell. The conditionalist view of hell seems to correspond nicely with the open view, especially with the moral loving nature of God. Can the conditionalist view be held by those who are Calvinists?
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
11/21/00 9:17 AM
RE: Open View and Hell
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I am in the dark on this. What is a Conditionalists view on hell? I tell ya, I am learning so much on this discussion board
Looking forward to the answer,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
11/21/00 12:13 PM
RE: RE: Open View and Hell
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Evangelicals agree that there is a hell. What they disagree over is the NATURE of hell. Is hell everlasting torment and punishment (traditionalist) or is it total destruction and annihilation where one ceases to exist (annihilationist or conditionalist view, there are variables to this)?
The reason I asked the question in the first place is because it seems to me that for the most part, the discussion of the open view, generally (on these boards at least) concerns itself with God's knowledge of future contingencies. But the open view also concerns itself with the nature of God, morally and otherwise (immutable, impassibility, etc). Those who believe in annihilation, see the traditionalist view as going against the moral love of God revealed in Jesus Christ where God is ever for lost humanity. One question that is usually brought up is, of what REDEEMING VALUE is there in punishing someone forever? Does everlasting punishment merit referring to God as a "torturerer" or is this inflammatory? As you can see, because those who are open in their views of God concerning other aspects of his nature, (God feels pain, he is not impassive), it is hard to see a Calvinist holding to a conditionalist view.
Brandon P.S. Christianity Today Magazine just had an article on the whole issue concerning this question. I would also recommend, "Two Views of Hell: A Theological and Biblical Dialogue" by two of the main contenders, Edward Fudge and Eugene(?) Peterson put out by Intervarsity Press.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModseofThought
11/22/00 11:27 AM
RE: RE: RE: Open View and Hell
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Additionally, some traditionalists assume that conditionalists deny the justice of God. This need not be the case, conditionalists insist that the punishment fit the crime. Often they will suggest that there will be a time of punishment, conscious suffering of the damned, followed by eventual destruction. As stated by BBBCananda, the traditionalists have the problem of addressing what possible redeeming value there can be for everlasting torment.
Another part of this discussion takes up the question of whether we understand hell to be eternal in effect (destruction is the last and final word) or eternal in duration (the torment persists everlastingly). The Greek is ambiguous enough at this point to support both readings.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
11/23/00 11:42 AM
Readings on Hell
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Trosie, best book on annihilationism is Edward Fudges *The Fire That Consumes* Best book from a more traditionalist perspective is C.S. Lewis' *The Great Divorce.* Most assessable recent survey of the issue is Fudge and Peterson, *Two Views on Hell* (IVP). Read on!
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lee-Eddy
11/24/00 11:36 AM
Calvinists and Conditionalism
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Can the Conditionalist view be held by those who are Calvinists? Yes! I myself am a conditionalist and NOT a Calvinist but some of the best writings on conditionalism come from Calvinists. Edward Fudge, who has given conditionalism a sure scriptural footing and brought it respectability in much of the evangelical world, is himself much more Calvinist than his Church of Christ background would suggest. Likewise many web resources on conditionalism come from Calvinist pens. www.sovgrace.org argues against the innate immortality of man and for a conditional understanding of hell as does William Kilgore at his home.flash.net/~thinkman site. There are others as well who argue for conditionalism while holding to the five-point doctrines of Grace. Although I'm not in the Calvinist loop, I've never seen other Calvinists argue that conditionalism is contrary to Calvinist understandings - so maybe conditionalism in and of itself is acceptable to the open-minded Calvinist.
(Open-minded Calvinist? Er, um, you know what I mean! All in good fun, my Calvinist friends...)
Lee
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Lee-Eddy
11/24/00 11:44 AM
Great Divorce?
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Now don't get me wrong - I'm a huge fan of The Great Divorce. It's one of my favorite books and it has impacted my life greatly. I make a point of zooming it through it every year or so to be refreshed on his thoughts of the afterlife and this life as well...
BUT is it really a good book to read when looking for the traditional understanding of hell? To my mind, Lewis is not so traditional either and as most of the story is so symbolic, it could stand for either understanding (traditional or conditional). I've seen many advocates of the traditional view takes Lewis to task for some of how he depicted the afterlife. Of course, some trad advocates will take anybody to task over anything, so...
What I'm curious about is what would be a good book to read regarding the traditional view versus the conditional view. As Fudge's book (a great read!) argues for the conditional view and AGAINST the trad view, what book is out there that does the same for the trad view?
I think I'd remain a convinced conditionalist but I'd like to see the others in a better light.
What do you think of the Four Views on Hell book? It not only includes the conditional view (argues by Clark Pinnock) but a purgatorial view and two different traditional views. I enjoyed it greatly.
Lee
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Misevac
11/29/00 12:07 AM
RE: Great Divorce?
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Hi everyone- I am new to this discussion and very curious! I was aware of the conditionalist view (albeit minimally), and I haven't decided where I land with my views on hell, but here is something that strikes me as odd:
It seems (from reading the postings) that the conditionalist view holds that God would be torturous to allow a person to be punished forever, and that this eternal punishment has no redeeming value, and that it would go against His nature of love and mercy. If this were true, then wouldn't God also be torturous to allow them to suffer for ANY amount of time verses immediate annihilation?
My point is that I can see that there is mercy in the annihilation vs. eternal punishment view...but it is still incrediblily torturous for whatever time is spent there. If there is no redeeming value in eternal punishment, what redeeming value is there in burning and suffering at all? Even with all of the great philosophical and theological explanations of why there needs to be a hell, I still end up left with the thought that hell itself goes against God's moral law (I do not hold this as a firm belief, but rather a struggle to understand). I am very interested in learning more about this so your input is appreciated!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Misevac
11/29/00 12:10 AM
RE: RE: Great Divorce?
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Sorry- I meant God's moral Love...not God's moral law.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
11/29/00 12:31 PM
RE: RE: Great Divorce?
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Misevac said:
"It seems (from reading the postings) that the conditionalist view holds that God would be torturous to allow a person to be punished forever, and that this eternal punishment has no redeeming value, and that it would go against His nature of love and mercy. If this were true, then wouldn't God also be torturous to allow them to suffer for ANY amount of time verses immediate annihilation?"
Let me take a little poke at your answer for what I can at the moment. 1. Ravi Zacaharias talks about how there is something within the human heart that cries justice when it comes to the Pol Pots and Hitlers of the world. I think Hell provides that fulfillment of justice. It seems to me that there NEEDS to be some punishment that is due or meeted (sp?) out. This is the sorry thing about atheism, there is no final justice. I think the answer is to be found somewhere in justice and all it's implications (i.e. eye for an eye, etc.) 2. For some conditionalists there is a time of torment before annihilation occurs, and like many theologians like Greg they want to stick to how they interpret those biblical passages which they believe speaks of this. In other words they they don't want to go BEYOND what they believe or interpret it to say. So whether the biblical passage seems to go against what we think is moral we need to allow the biblical passage to determine our theology and not our feelings, at least as much as possible.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
11/29/00 3:20 PM
Sir Mephistopheles Cometh...
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Dear Room,
This is short and will be elaborated later. I assert...
1) Conditional immortality is not the most exegetically sound alternative
2) Conditional immortality with any type of port-mortem punishment does NOT avoid the charge of God being unfair, and thus doesn't make the punishment fit the crime. This is due to the nigh infinite nature of the punishment itself. My man Misevac here had the idea in mind here...
"It seems (from reading the postings) that the conditionalist view holds that God would be torturous to allow a person to be punished forever, and that this eternal punishment has no redeeming value, and that it would go against His nature of love and mercy. {{{{{{If this were true, then wouldn't God also be torturous to allow them to suffer for ANY amount of time verses immediate annihilation?}}}}}}} (emphasis mine)
My point is that I can see that there is mercy in the annihilation vs. eternal punishment view...but it is still incrediblily torturous for whatever time is spent there. If there is no redeeming value in eternal punishment, what redeeming value is there in burning and suffering at all? Even with all of the great philosophical and theological explanations of why there needs to be a hell, I still end up left with the thought that hell itself goes against God's moral law (I do not hold this as a firm belief, but rather a struggle to understand).
3) Some supporters (NOT all) of conditional immortality are driven more by moral revulsion of "eternal hell", (which is often disguised as the affirmation of God's love and justice) than by straight biblical exegesis.
These are just my opinions, and not ultimate truth. As I get more time (semester's ALMOST over...whew), I'll elaborate these much more. Stay tuned, true believers....
In Service to the King of Glory,
Mephi2K
PS: I read that Christianity Today article. Quite tight.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
11/29/00 4:17 PM
Mephistopheles?
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Mephi (aka Sir Mephistopheles), judging by your name, I'm sure you must have a very interesting perspective on hell.... Do tell!
g-d-g
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
11/30/00 10:04 AM
RE: Open View and Hell
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Is the Open View compatible with the trad view on hell?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ghost-dog-girl
11/30/00 12:25 PM
Open View and Hell
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TGB, Yes, the open view is compatible with the traditional view of hell. g-d-g
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
12/01/00 5:41 PM
RE: Calvinists and Conditionalism
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Thanks for all the web-site info Lee-Eddy. You are clearly VERY well read and researched on this topic... a veritable Encyclopedia!!! Thanks for sharing. I've checked a few of the sites you list (here and in other spots) and have benefited from them. By the way, do you know of other Openness Sites you could list for our discussers?
Thanks,
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
12/13/00 11:57 AM
RE: Sir Mephistopheles Cometh...
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Mephi2K said:
"Conditional immortality with any type of port-mortem punishment does NOT avoid the charge of God being unfair, and thus doesn't make the punishment fit the crime. This is due to the nigh infinite nature of the punishment itself."
and
"{{{{{{If this were true, then wouldn't God also be torturous to allow them to suffer for ANY amount of time verses immediate annihilation?}}}}}}}"
Correct me if I am wrong, not all annihilationists agree that there will be degrees of punishment, but annihlation only. Second, God may be unfair only if veiwed from a feudalistic system of justice. Third, what do we say about any amount of time of punishment when looking at instances of God's judgements poured out in stories like the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?). Really, my whole question is not necessarily about the existence of hell or it's nature, but how it relates to OT.
Brandon
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