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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 10:28 AM (GMT -6) |   |
TGB
02/16/01 8:16 AM
Supralapsarian Open Theism?
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Hi all-
Yesterday I disclosed to a very close personal friend and colleague that I am moving toward the open view. I summarized it using my own words and a few quotes from Doc’s book. Simple and sweet. I would appreciate any comments regarding his response to me.
I reminded him that open theists affirm the omniscience of God. “God’s knowledge,” I said, “is by metaphysical necessity coterminous with reality.” His response:
“It seems to me that you define omniscience as the absolute knowledge of all reality and then you define reality very narrowly and nonbiblically. You simple cannot see that choices that free moral agents will make in the future ARE reality. But they ARE reality - maybe not comprehensible to us as humans - but they are to God. In fact, God's foreknowing me as His son and His work in me now and in the future to conform me into the image of Jesus flows out of this reality (Rom. 8:28 and I Pet. 1:2). My very RELATIONSHIP with God (more important to me than anything) flows out of and exists in the fact that God knew my free choices before I was born. My very confidence in God and my relationship with Him are based on knowing from His Word and the witness of His Spirit within me that He knows ALL of reality, whether it has happened yet or not from my perspective.”
I further said, “The open view does not hold the future to be ‘completely’ open. ‘Much of it is settled ahead of time, either by God's predestining will or by existing earthly causes, but it is not exhaustively settled ahead of time. To whatever degree the future is yet open to be decided by free agents, it is unsettled. To this extent, God knows it as a realm of possibilities, not certainties.’ (quoting Doc).”
His reply:
“Tom, do you really know what you are saying? God knows the some of the future only because He settled some of it ahead of time. That is why He knows it - not because he has absolute knowledge of the decisions of free moral agents - He knows it only because he determined some of it. Did God know you would believe? Did He? Now, did he determine that you would believe and that is why He knew you would believe? Or did He know beforehand your free moral choice? If He knew your free moral choice beforehand is that knowing reality before it happens from our perspective? If He knew your choice beforehand does he know everyone else's? I don't know, maybe you don't feel God did know beforehand your choice to believe in Jesus. Do you? Do you realize that if you really believe what you are saying, you are a supralapsarian Calvanist?”
Somebody help me out here! Have any of you ever known the open view to be misconstrued as “supralapsarianism”? Seems he is assuming I would agree that God knew I WOULD believe. I told him I believe God knew I COULD believe, not that I WOULD.
Lastly, he commented:
”Did you note that all the Scriptures you sent to me were from the O.T. (except the ones from Revelation which I don't really think were connected)? Read Paul, brother. Read Peter. Read the gospels. Read John - but especially Paul.”
I’ve noticed the same tendency of OT to build primarily on Old Testament texts. Does this weaken the OV?
He also wants to talk through this all with me “before next semester starts.” What’s that mean?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
RevivalTheology
02/16/01 9:45 AM
RE: Supralapsarian Open Theism?
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Tom wrote:
I reminded him that open theists affirm the omniscience of God. "God's knowledge," I said, "is by metaphysical necessity coterminous with reality." His response:
"It seems to me that you define omniscience as the absolute knowledge of all reality and then you define reality very narrowly and nonbiblically. You simple cannot see that choices that free moral agents will make in the future ARE reality. But they ARE reality - maybe not comprehensible to us as humans - but they are to God. In fact, God's foreknowing me as His son and His work in me now and in the future to conform me into the image of Jesus flows out of this reality (Rom. 8:28 and I Pet. 1:2). My very RELATIONSHIP with God (more important to me than anything) flows out of and exists in the fact that God knew my free choices before I was born. My very confidence in God and my relationship with Him are based on knowing from His Word and the witness of His Spirit within me that He knows ALL of reality, whether it has happened yet or not from my perspective."
Tom, it seems to me the foundation for his faith is in God's knowledge rather than God's grace demonstrated in the Cross. Further, he is reading his presuppositions into Romans 8:28, which really has nothing to do with foreknowledge. Young's literal translation, a good rendition of the Greek, reads "And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;" My take on this passage is that whatever happens to you, God can work it for good in your life – NOT that God causes whatever happens in your life and that it is for your good that He does so.
As for 1 Peter 1:2, well this is a) a corporate calling, that is it is addressed to those who reside, and not to specific individuals. Further, one might suggest a study of the Greek work "proginosko", which is translated "foreknoweldge." (This word is where we get the english word "prognosis".)
I further said, "The open view does not hold the future to be 'completely' open. 'Much of it is settled ahead of time, either by God's predestining will or by existing earthly causes, but it is not exhaustively settled ahead of time. To whatever degree the future is yet open to be decided by free agents, it is unsettled. To this extent, God knows it as a realm of possibilities, not certainties.' (quoting Doc)."
His reply:
"Tom, do you really know what you are saying? God knows the some of the future only because He settled some of it ahead of time. That is why He knows it - not because he has absolute knowledge of the decisions of free moral agents - He knows it only because he determined some of it. Did God know you would believe? Did He? Now, did he determine that you would believe and that is why He knew you would believe? Or did He know beforehand your free moral choice? If He knew your free moral choice beforehand is that knowing reality before it happens from our perspective? If He knew your choice beforehand does he know everyone else's? I don't know, maybe you don't feel God did know beforehand your choice to believe in Jesus. Do you? Do you realize that if you really believe what you are saying, you are a supralapsarian Calvanist?"
Somebody help me out here! Have any of you ever known the open view to be misconstrued as "supralapsarianism"? Seems he is assuming I would agree that God knew I WOULD believe. I told him I believe God knew I COULD believe, not that I WOULD.
Well, first of all you should clarify that you do not believe that God predetermines moral choices and that God's pre-determining of events is exceptional rather than usual. The very point is that necessary foreknowledge of future free choices (i.e. choices that have a may or may not quality) violates the law of non-contradiction. That which is necessary cannot be contingent and that which is contingent cannot be necessary. IF you believed what he has represented you as believing, you would indeed be close to a supralapsarian Calvinist. (Frankly, I find Calvinism's view of foreknowledge/predestination far more logical than the typical Arminian view), but the fact is that what he has asserted is not what OT holds. God does not foreknow who will believe and who will not believe. He only foreknows that which of necessity must follow from past and present circumstances or that which He purposely determines to bring about.
Lastly, he commented:
"Did you note that all the Scriptures you sent to me were from the O.T. (except the ones from Revelation which I don't really think were connected)? Read Paul, brother. Read Peter. Read the gospels. Read John - but especially Paul."
Is the OT any less inspired? It was the only scripture Paul, Peter or John had to use. This tact is often used in discussions and presupposes that a tacit understanding that the interpretation of scripture of the person who asserts it is the only viable interpretation. Obviously, this is not correct. Have him address each scripture he has in mind and then thoroughly investigate them. Do not be dismayed if you do not have an immediate answer. Evangelical culture in America is so thoroughly imbued with the classical theological presuppositions that it is often difficult to initially see alternative interpretations to so-called problem passages. But they are there!!
I've noticed the same tendency of OT to build primarily on Old Testament texts. Does this weaken the OV?
I would say no, simply because ours, and the early Church's, foundational understanding of Who God is must necessarily stem from the Old Testament. Many people who will counter that the OT can only be faithfully interpreted by the NT are actually applying post-Augustinian Western philosophical presuppositons in interpreting the NT and then apply that interpretation to OT passages. A more valid method of exegesis, it seems to me, is to explore the life setting of the authors of the NT, understanding them as products of first century Judaism rather than fourth century Roman Christianity.
He also wants to talk through this all with me "before next semester starts." What's that mean?
Does he have some sort of authority over you or does the school you attend have some kind of doctrinal statement you must adhere to? Otherwise, you're in the best position to answer your own question.
Hope I've helped!
In the Lamb
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