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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
pneumatika
04/05/01 3:16 PM
An Open View of Heaven
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Although there are myriads of things I do not yet understand about how the Open View sees things, one of the most puzzling for me is what the OV must embrace about the future.
Since eschatology is such a broad subject, allow me to start with a question about heaven. What does the OV believe about heaven?
* Is there any certainty that there will be an eschatologically biblical heaven and hell?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/05/01 3:19 PM
Libertian Free Will in Heaven
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Here is an important question about Heaven:
Will there be libertian free will in heaven?
If yes, what would that make heaven like if sin and what comes with it is still a possibility?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/05/01 3:23 PM
Speaking of Libertian Free Will....
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Somewhere on this forum I believe Modes said that not all OVists hold to liberterian free will. What I cannot remember is if he was saying that some OV'ers don't believe in the liberterian free will of man or the liberterian free will of God.
Could somebody tell which is which?
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/05/01 6:23 PM
RE: Libertian Free Will in Heaven
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A great question: what I've been pondering is, since Satan fell, in heaven, there must have been sin in heaven at one time. So what makes us think that there will not be sin in heaven after...perhaps there will be but God will simply deal with it much quicker, not allowing the consequences to manifest in those around it. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/06/01 10:23 AM
Sin in Heaven?
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So, do others in the OV believe there is sin in heaven?
This is pretty radical....definitely not classical. Honestly, my mind is reeling over this one.
Anyone else want to comment?
--that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/06/01 11:02 AM
RE: Sin in Heaven?
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Who said that believed there would be "sin in heaven"? This seems to be just the way unfounded assertions get started.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
04/06/01 11:08 AM
Boyd's view of Heaven
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Here is what Dr. Boyd said elsewhere about this:
"When we are perfected in heaven, we will have God-orientated compatibilistic freedom. We will not be able to fall. We will be FREE from this possibility."
I guess this is an answer to my question. I have other questions regarding why it is believed that man has a liberterian free will now but not in heaven.....but alas, that is the entire debate regarding free will.
- that Pneumatika guy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/06/01 6:30 PM
RE: Boyd's view of Heaven
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Pneumatika, I dealt briefly with the question of libertarian freeodm in the "Jesus and Free will thread." I there argue that libertarian freedom is a provisional, probationary, or "gestation" phenomenon needed to grow us into eternal citizens of the kingdom (or not). check it out.
I have a chapter on this question in the forthcoming Satan and the PRoblem of Evil.
Nothing like a blatant advertisement plopped in the middle of an otherwise fine thread of discussion!!!
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/06/01 7:24 PM
RE: Speaking of Libertian Free Will....
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"But your iniquities have seperated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear." - Isa. 59:2
God cannot be near sin, so if there is sin in heaven it implies two things: either God has to leave heaven, or the one who sins must leave heaven. Perhaps this is what happened when Satan sinned? God did not want his sin to infect heaven, so he banished him to the earth. I do not believe that there is sin in heaven now. But my question is, if there was sin in heaven, what changed things? Now, our condition when we are in heaven must be one of complete holiness. Because as it is written, "without holiness no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14) That having been established, how does a being of holiness (Lucifer before being banished) turn into such a monster of evil? What caused him to sin from the start? Just some questions to ponder.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/06/01 11:29 PM
RE: RE: Speaking of Libertian Free Will....
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Matt said: "...how does a being of holiness (Lucifer before being banished) turn into such a monster of evil? What caused him to sin from the start? Just some questions to ponder."
That is a question I have often pondered myself. I hope you get some great feedback on this one because I am curious too!
Blessings,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/07/01 12:35 AM
RE: RE: Sin in Heaven?
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actually, I did not say I believed there was going to be sin in heaven, only that I was wondering about the time when sin had entered heaven (through Satan). Just something I have been contemplating. Sanders brings up many of the different views in footnote 99 in chapter 8 of "The God Who Risks," and that just got me thinking. No, I don't believe there will be sin in heaven. But there are many things I think about that I do not believe in...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/07/01 8:43 AM
RE: RE: Speaking of Libertian Free Will....
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Uh, while I agree that if sin enters heaven it will be cast out, don't you think the verse you cite is metaphorical? I mean, we are also given the picture in Job of Satan entering the courts of God to prosecute old Job before the Almighty. Seems like sin was pretty near to Him then. And what about Jesus? He was God in the flesh amongst a whole bunch of sinners.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/07/01 1:12 PM
RE: RE: RE: Speaking of Libertian Free Will....
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You believe that just because Satan was there that sin was present? While Satan may be evil, he is not himself sin. When I speak of God not being near sin, I mean the literal action of sinning. Satan did not sin while he was there in the courts of God. I'd have to believe that if he did, God would have thrown him away; Satan knew this, so he did not commit any sins while there. Sin is like a virus, it spreads rapidly infecting everything in sight. God does not want that horrible virus near him. I believe that sin literally causes God pain. When you have a being so holy and pure as the Lord almighty and there is something so horribly vile as sin near him, it's going to cause him pain. This belief can be shown when Jesus died on the cross. He "bore our sins" as the Bible states. The pain Christ experienced on the cross was MUCH greater then just physical pain. The holy and pure spirit within Christ was subjected to the darkness of all the sins of every man to ever live. Can you imagine the conflict??? The pain must have been more intense then anyone could ever imagine. Christ, who knew no sin, took our sins upon him. That statement alone shows just how unimaginable the pain must have been for him.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/07/01 1:22 PM
RE: Speaking of Libertian Free Will....
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Satan is a supreme sinner. Sin is not merely an outward act, but the attitude of the heart. Every moral being is required to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength. To refuse to do so is sin. Satan, in so far as he stood before God unrepentant, was sinning in his heart. Sin is not a thing, it is an heart attitude resulting in "sins". When Satan stood in the presence of God to accuse Job, there was wilful disobedience going on.
As for your characterization of Christ's agony on the cross, I would ask if you hold the open view? If so, in what sense could Christ be "subjected to the darkness of all the sins of every man to ever live"? Every person to ever live had not lived at the time of Christ, nor have they lived yet.
In the Lamb
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/07/01 1:38 PM
My Apologies
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When I said "every man to ever live" what I was trying to say was, Christ took on him the inheritted sin of Adam that was passed on to every man that ever lived or will live. He crucified that sin on the cross. Sorry for not describing what I meant by that.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
bdsahli
04/15/01 8:37 PM
RE: An Open View of Heaven
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I have a fairly good understanding of what each of the arminian, calvinist and open views believe, but there is one major part of the open view that goes aginst what i have believed for 20 years - Gods forknowledge. how is it that god knows all possibilities but only some things that will happen. why are only some things predistined then? and how do you explain verses that seem to cleary lead to the conlusion that God has exhaustive foreknowledge like Jer 29:10-11, for i know the plans i have for you... Mat 26:36, prophacy of peter denying jesus 3 times, Isa 46:10, for i know the begining and the end...
-just trying to understand, BRETT
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/16/01 2:22 AM
RE: RE: An Open View of Heaven
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Welcome aboard Brett:
The material you ask about has been covered on a number of threads. I'd page through them and check out the discussions. You can also find a pretty exhaustive list of both verses that suggest a partly open future and verses that are cited to support an exhaustively settled future on the Open Theism section of this web site. If you're REALLY interested in getting into this stuff (and if I may be excused for using this discussion board for a little promo), you might get a copy of my book, God of the Possible.
I'll leave you with one or two thoughts. When the Lord tells Israel "I know the plans I have for you, to bless you...etc." was he saying, "I know what's going to happen to you" or "I know what I WANT to do with you and for you..?" Consider the subsequent history of Israel. Did things transpire as God said he WANTED them to transpire here? The answer is "NO." Which tells you that the Lord was giving us a piece of foreknowledge in this verse. He was stating HIS INTENTIONS. So it is with Isa. 46:10. The Peter deal is a different matter, but I don't have time to rehash that again right now.
Blessings
Doc
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