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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 6:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
writerdad
02/03/01 12:22 AM
If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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To any of my reformed brothers: This is a subject that I know little about, but a friend of mine had told me that reformed believers are, by and large, believers in infant baptism. This kind of surprised me, because I thought all scriptural support is for adult baptism. I was wondering if any of you might give me some general information on the subject, like why, etc. I'm not really putting this down for debate, just wanted to know. Thanks! John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
02/03/01 1:45 AM
RE: If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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Greetings from the Reformed camp!
Classically, it is true that Reformed Churches do baptize infants, but not all do. Reformed Baptists do not baptize infants (surprise surprise, they're baptists!)
Why do Presbyterians and other Reformed churches baptize infants? Baptism is viewed as a covenantal thing, like circumcision. We see the infant as being in covenant with God through his parents. The child benefits from the Salvation of his parents, but this doesn't mean the child is saved by the sacrament, Calvinists do not believe in baptismal regeneration. I would have to disagree with you that the Scripture "clearly" teaches adult baptism. When reading Acts and reading of conversions, you will see that when a person was saved, his WHOLE household was baptized too. Are we to assume all believed? Not necessarily, because the focus is put upon one or two believing, and a bunch of others being baptized. Perhaps unbelieving children of the ages of 8 or even older were baptized! That is speculation, but I don't think the Word is crystal clear on the subject. There is more to infant baptism than that, but I don't really know too much of the details. Its one of those side issues that I haven't gotten to because I am interested in different aspects of theology. I guess since I am baptized, and I am not married, and have no children, I have given less thought to it! Here is what the Westminster Catechism says:
"I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.
II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.
III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.
IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerate
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.
VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person
Hope this helped!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/03/01 11:55 PM
RE: RE: If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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Thanks...actually that does give me some good background. Appreciate it! John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/03/01 11:55 PM
RE: RE: If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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Thanks...actually that does give me some good background. Appreciate it! John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
inprint
02/05/01 1:56 AM
RE: Infant baptism
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Food for thought....
Martin Luther, the great father of the Reformation, says: -- "It cannot be proved by the scriptures, that infant baptism was instituted by Christ, or begun by the first Christians after the apostles."1 John Calvin testifies thus: -- "It is nowhere expressly mentioned by the evangelists, that any child was by the apostles baptized."2 Bishop Burner avers: "There is no express precept, or rule given in the New Testament for the baptism of infants.3 "Strarck says: -- "The connection of infant baptism with circumcision deserves no consideration, since there were physical reasons for circumcising in infancy."4 Angusti says: -- "The parallel between circumcision and baptism is altogether foreign to the New Testament."5
Bishop Jeremy Taylor thus writes: -- "For the argument from circumcision, it is invalid from infinite considerations. Figures and types prove nothing, unless a command go along with them, or some express to signify such to be their purpose."6 Dr. Woods of Andover remarks: -- "It is a plain case that there is no express precept respecting infant baptism in our sacred writings. The proof then, that it is a divine institution must be made out in some other way."7 Prof. Stuart says: -- "Commands, or plain and certain examples in the New Testament, relative to it [infant baptism] I do not find."8 And finally Dr. Neander declares: -- "As baptism was closely united with a conscious entrance on Christian communion, faith and baptism were always connected with one another; and thus it is in the highest degree probable, that baptism was performed only in instances where both could meet together, and that the practice of infant baptism was unknown" to the apostolic age.9 In another work Neander says:
"Baptism was at first, administered only to adults, as men were accustomed to conceive baptism and faith as strictly connected. We have all reason for not deriving infant baptism from apostolic institution."10
Multitudes of other similar declarations could, were they necessary, be readily produced, but these are amply sufficient. It is acknowledged that the word of God does not teach infant baptism. This acknowledgment is made candidly, by those who ought to know, since they were among the most learned men, and best Biblical critics the world has ever produced, made against themselves, voluntarily, freely, and of their own accord, and ought therefore to be considered decisive of the question. Infant baptism is not found in any form in the Bible. Every effort to deduce it from the sacred records, no matter how ingeniously conducted, has proved a wretched failure. It is confessed by its advocates that it is not found in the inspired pages. Infant baptism is therefore, unsupported by the word of God.
THE EVILS OF INFANT BAPTISM
By Robert Boyt C. Howell
The full text can be seen at:
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/howell/howell01.htm
Posted Originally From: CoolBoard.com
vrwc
02/09/01 10:40 AM
RE: If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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Greetings folks. This is my first post, and I really don't have much to say but this: I think that the terms "Reformed" and "Baptist" are oxymorons. I think Reformed Baptists are just wannabe Presbyterians who can't seem to justify infant baptism. I think being Reformed is different from being a Calvinist. Being Reformed means accepting the Reformed creeds, much of which has nothing to do with Calvinism per se--infant baptism, Christian Sabbath, etc.
Blessings,
vrwc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/09/01 2:46 PM
RE: RE: If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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vrwc: I am curious (I was the one who started this post): so you amke a distinction between reformed and calvinist. How would you see them differing theology, or is it just in rites that they differ? I am curious how you would see them differing in matters of faith. Are the reformed creeds different as far as doctrine than, say, what you would consider Calvinism? Thanks. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
02/09/01 6:10 PM
RE: RE: RE: If any of my calvinist brothers could enlightened me on something
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I am curious, too, Writerdad! The only distinction I could come up with (and this is a stretch) is the fact that Reformed Theology doesn't hold teach everything Calvin taught. Calvin says there is a spiritual presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper...Reformed Theology has sided with Zwingli and says it is purely a symbolic meal, along with most other Protestant churches.
Perhaps another way to distinguish the two is the fact that the creeds of Reformed Theology weren't made by Calvin...not even the TULIP was penned by Calvin, that confession was written in response to Arminianism.
I don't understand how Reformed Baptists are "wannabe Presbyterians". If they wanted to be, I figured they would baptize infants
Craig
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