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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:33 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
ilgwamh
03/17/01 12:34 AM
Getting open with it...
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Will Smith eat your heart out!
This thread is aimed basically at discussing whether EDF violates FW or not, with the Open view, classical theism, predestination, free will, and foreknowledge all in general looming in the background and possibly serving a significant role.
It was recently stated in another thread: 'It [The Open View] considers itself an improvement on Arminianism insofar as it resolves the contradiction in the Arminian claim that “God foreknows the future free actions of moral agents as definite.”'
I don't see how this is so. What if one were to simply say, "God knows what my free actions will be." How does a knowledge of what I will do with my free will violate my free will? Don't forget time had a beginning and God transcendently created the universe (creation ex nihilo, Hebrew verb 'bara' of which the subject is always God). I think that could make a HUGE difference!
My limited understanding tells me the Open View doesn't rest on this though. Its just an argument used in support of the open view. Personally, I see it as a straw man argument that stems from a misunderstanding or poor definition or application of time. God transcends the four-dimensional spacetime we live in and the other dimensions of our universe. The claim the EDF violates FW doesnt seem to be hitting reality.
I think the most important aspect of the open debate is what scripture teaches. Boyd lists plenty of that here on this site. Science and philosophy should be integrated as well.
I like the view the open view presents on prayer. I don't belive prayer conflicts with "classical theism" though. Things like God's perfect will vs His permissable will. Anyways, James Leo Garett offered these points while discussing the nature of God, 'Sytematic Theology', page 218-219
quote:
1. God's changelessness is consistent with Biblical anthropomorphisms. Objection has been raised against divine changelessness on the grounds that certain anthropomorphisms show that God does change. Take, for example the statements that "the LORD repented" concerning something: making Saul king of Israel (1 Sam 15:11); judgements by locusts and fire (Amos7:3,6); of calamity if the nation should turn from evil (Jer 18:8); the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians (Jer 42:0); imminent punishment of the Ninevites (Jon 3:9). Do not these texts, it has been asked, make it impossible to conclude that the Old Testament teaches that God is changeless? no, these texts rather bear out the truth that God "changes in response to" or areacts" to the changing attitude and actions of human beings. "God's behavior alters according to the bahavior of men. For this very reason He is the living God, in contrast to the divinityof abstract thought. Indeed, God "has changed" and "does change" in the creation, in the incarnation, in reconciliation, and in answer to petitions and intercessions. Adrio Konig has referred to the incarnation as "a humiliating change" in God.
2. God's changelessness shpuld not be equated with immobility. E.Y. Mullins warned that immutability, when ascribed to God, should not be taken to mean immobility. Konig has warned against a "metaphysical immutability." God is free to initiate new actions; in this sense God "changes."
4. The changelessness of God means that God's fundamental character and his overall purpose abide or persist without alteration or deviation. Emil brunner commented, "A God who is constantly changing is not a God whom we can worship, He is a mythological being for whom we can only feel sorry." Hendrikus Berkhof wrote of "the changeable faithfulness" of God. Konig has related God's changelessness and His decision-making in a paradoxical way:
." . . God's faithfulness is not something automatic. As the living God he decides how and where he will fufill his promises--but not arbitrarily. There is a fixed pattern. This can be read, among many places, in Jeremiah 18:7-10. This is the unchangeableness of God, that He always unchangingly, changes in this way."
(63) Conner, Revelation and God, p. 89-90
Here is a big list of scripture. Some of the verses below imply predestination and some imply foreknowledge while others speak of God's sovereignty and mix the two.
Taken from the NIV:
Exodus 9:16: But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
Exodus 34:24: I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
Deut 10:15 Yet the LORD set his affection on your forefathers and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today.
Joshua 11:20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
1 Kings 12:15 So the king did not listen to the people, for this turn of events was from the LORD, to fulfill the word the LORD had spoken to Jeroboam son of Nebat through Ahijah the Shilonite.
2 Chron 6:4-6 Then he said: "Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, who with his hands has fulfilled what he promised with his mouth to my father David. For he said, `Since the day I brought my people out of Egypt, I have not chosen a city in any tribe of Israel to have a temple built for my Name to be there, nor have I chosen anyone to be the leader over my people Israel. But now I have chosen Jerusalem for my Name to be there, and I have chosen David to rule my people Israel.'
Psalm 31:15 My times are in your hands; deliver me from my enemies and from those who pursue me.
Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
Psalm 110 http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=PS+110&language=english&version=NIV
Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
We have some free will.predestination stuff happening in the same verse: Proverbs 16:3-7 Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed. The LORD works out everything for his own ends-- even the wicked for a day of disaster. The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.
Eccl 9:1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.
Isa 40:21-28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing. No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff. "To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing. Why do you say, O Jacob, and complain, O Israel, "My way is hidden from the LORD; my cause is disregarded by my God"? Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
ISA 46:10-11 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
ISA 61:11 For as the soil makes the sprout come up and a garden causes seeds to grow, so the Sovereign LORD will make righteousness and praise spring up before all nations.
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
The dream in Dan 4 http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=DAN+4&language=english&version=NIV
Hosea 11:4 I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love; I lifted the yoke from their neck and bent down to feed them.
Matt 10:29-30 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matt 11:20-26 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Matt 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
Matt 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Mark 13:20-22 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look, there he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "`though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
Luke 18:27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
Luke 22:21-22 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him."
Luke 22:31-34 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."
John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
Acts 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Romans 4:10-11 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
Romans 8:29-31 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Romans 9:11-24 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 11:7-12 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:
1 Cor 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
2 Cor 3:5-6 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead--
Ephes 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2 Thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
2 Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
Titus 1:1-3 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness--a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
Hebrews 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.
Hebrews 10:13-14 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 13:20-21 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
James 4:13-15 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."
1 Pet 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 5:18-20 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true.
I could also quote just as many verses implying free will. Any comments? I guess I believe in both free will and predestination "somehow". Is there another tenable choice? What does the OV say? How much can those verses leave open?
Peace,
Vinnie
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/20/01 9:12 AM
RE: Getting open with it...
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I am sorry to see that no one has taken this quseton up. perhaps, if you are seeking clarification on this topic you should go read the sections of the website which address this. if you are looking for more interactive conversation, you might do well to pose your challenge as succintly as possible. Saying "too much" requires lots of work from your readers and some of us do not have time for that. Particularly on a question which we have done so much work on in the past. Brevity will benefit you should you chose to reframe your challenge.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ilgwamh
03/20/01 10:41 AM
RE: Getting open with it...
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I am under the impression that one need not respond to everything another writes? If It makies it easier, then I guess all the stuff until I started listing all that scripture. It removes well over half of it. And the last paragraph too which is based off the scripture references. One need not address all the excerpts from the Bible I presented to do that. I think the explanation must "cover" them though.
Peace,
Vinnie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
03/20/01 12:40 PM
RE: Getting open with it...
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A couple of things about your post that may keep people from responding. First of all you wrote:
It was recently stated in another thread: 'It [The Open View] considers itself an improvement on Arminianism insofar as it resolves the contradiction in the Arminian claim that “God foreknows the future free actions of moral agents as definite.”'
I don't see how this is so. What if one were to simply say, "God knows what my free actions will be." How does a knowledge of what I will do with my free will violate my free will?
These statements display either a lack of familiarity with the philosophical discussions concerning simple foreknowledge that have been debated for over five centuries or a refusal to take them seriously. The discussion of the logical problems of foreknowing with certainty future contingencies did not origninate with the OV. For a succinct presentation of this issue, see OMNISCIENCE AND FREEDOM: A CASE FOR THE OPPOSITION, which is by a philosophy professor and not a Christian or theologian.
You also state:
Don't forget time had a beginning and God transcendently created the universe (creation ex nihilo, Hebrew verb 'bara' of which the subject is always God). I think that could make a HUGE difference!
This statement also demonstrates a lack of familiarity with the Open View specifically, but the entire discussion of foreknowledge in general. It is also question begging and deals with an issue that is quite open to debate. Must Open Theists would argue that it depends on what you mean by "time" as to whether it is a "created" thing or not. Many would argue that duration, or better yet, succession of thought, is a function of personality, an aspect of being and so not a "thing" which is created. Thus, time, as part of God's universe, simply mirrors Himself in the sense that events occur after one another in succession. Much more could be said about this, but you don't ask so no one takes the time to engage.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ilgwamh
03/20/01 11:22 PM
Getting pathetic with it....
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Oh, I get it. Because I'm not as smart or as well versed as some of you I won't get many responses. Instead of actual responses I get ad hom statements. I'm sorry, did I come to the wrong place? I thought this was a good place to discuss the open view even if you didn't or aren't attending seminary.
quote:
Any proposition whose truth is fixed or established beforehand, that is, prior to its described event's occurrence, let us say, is a proposition whose truth determines the event; for to say otherwise would be to deny that the truth was in fact established beforehand. And we have already proven that proposition (4) is established, based on the assumption that its truth is known by God. So it follows that:
(5) Dr. Santas' coming to class was determined beforehand.
Not if God has the equivalent of two dimensions of time whereas we are limited to a half dimension.
Apparently my ignorance of EDF is what causes me not to see how it contradicts free will. The objection I raised was the first objection in that paper:
"Objection 1: "Although God knows in advance that Dr. Santas would come to class (since God knows everything), it doesn't follow that God causedDr. S. to come to class. This being the case, Dr. S.'s coming to class was not forced, and thus he came to class freely."
I would simply posit that God saw (should I assume the transcendent triune-Godhead has eyeballs and grey matter and "sees" things like us?) or knew what Santas would do with his free will which does and doesn't appear to be very free in many Biblical passages.
Here was the papers excellent refutation of my stupid, ignorant, and moronic objection:
quote:
Reply: Admittedly, foreknowledge doesn't imply that what was known was caused to happen by the knower. But this is irrelevant, since there are examples of determinism other than causal determinism. Logical determinism is such an example: Santas wasn't free not because he was physically compelled by God to come to class, but simply because he was logically bound to attend, given that his attending was known (and thus established as true) beforehand, if an omniscient God exists. On the other hand, if he wasn't so bound, his freedom was due, in part, to the fact that no foreknowledge and truth of his impending action existed beforehand---i.e. because there is no omniscient God."
God with the possible (and I would say very likely) equivalent of at least two time dimensions knowing what Santas will do does not equate to determinism. Santos is still free in this 4-d spacetime if God has extradimensions of time.
And when I refer to time I mean (this is very loosely defined) "the dimension in which cause and effect phenomenon take place. God is recorded in the bible as doing things before the beginning of time.
That is what I was hoping to discuss. Not being told I'm ignorant and no one will talk to me.
"Must Open Theists would argue that it depends on what you mean by "time" as to whether it is a "created" thing or not."
Maybe I should spew out nonsense about these people being ignorant and therefore not deserving a response? If I said the beginning of time OBVIOUSLY I was referring to the Bible verses which state God did things "before" (whatever that might mean) time and the series of papers presented by Hawking, Penrose and Ellis that demonstrated time had a beginning if general relativity is true and there is mass in the universe. Asking that question demonstrates a lack of familiarity with "time" on their part.
If some of what was said in here is true, maybe those pharisees in here can get off their pedestals and come back down to reality and join the rest of us fallible Christians.
Maybe we can start our tour of reality by ostensively defining God.
Next we could move on to the Three-in-Oneness of God.
Vinnie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/20/01 11:49 PM
RE: Getting open with it...
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Vinnie,
I am guilty of not reading long posts sometimes. It's seems easier to keep the flow going when we keep it short. (apologies to all you participaters in our post the longest thread contest.) When I do have time to read the long ones they are worth the time. But it makes it harder for me to stay current.
I agree with you that the scripture says both, thus the tension, our discussion and reams of theology written. I find the solution in OT because it says the future is PARTLY open and PARTLY shut. The more we work with God and make his will ours the more shut it becomes.
incoherant and out
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
03/21/01 7:36 AM
RE: Getting pathetic with it....
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Vinnie,
I did not mean to make any implication about your level of intelligence. However, your opening post made several assertions, and then went on to argue a position from those assertions. The assertions demonstrated a lack of familiarity with the issues and how they have been discussed in the past. No value judgement there, simply an observation. If you want to discuss something, try not to open up with a treatise that ignores much of the discussion that has gone before. The paper was suggested merely for informational purposes and I was not suggesting that it would exhaustively deal with your objections.
Honestly, your positing of "time" being "multi-dimensional" does not strike me as solving the dilemna of contingencies being known as certainties before they occur. The point is, that if they are known as certainties, whatever the cause, they cannot be contingent, they MUST occur in the way they are known, whether the manner by which that knowledge is gained is through a crystal ball or multi-dimensional perception.
In the Lamb
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