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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 10:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | TGB
06/19/01 4:03 PM
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Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Hi all-
Daniel 10:20-21: “Then he said, ‘Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I am through with him, lo, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth….’”
As the passage progresses, it becomes clear that the contents of the book of truth which the angel discloses to Daniel regard details of future nations.
Is this an argument for exhaustive definite foreknowledge? Is the Book of Truth a metaphorical reference to God’s knowledge of future events?
I’ve been asked. So I thought I’d ask y’all.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
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Still_unsure
06/20/01 11:40 AM
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RE: Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Hi Tom:
This is indeed an argument for exhaustive foreknowledge, hence the silence, I think. It is difficult to comprehend how God could so accurately know 400-500 years of human history involving several different kingdoms. I suppose one could say that He brought it all about. However this does violence to the concept of an open universe. If this was the case then He must have a VERY specific plan for His creation. It would be quite a feat to preserve any free will and still bring something so precise to pass. Perhaps OVers are wrong in their assumption that the future doesn't yet exist. That view is certainly opposed by Einstein's theory which places time as a fourth dimension or "timescape". Philosophers call it "Block time". Past, present and future are all simply "there". The notion of the fleeting present is simply an illusion. How does one reconcile freedom with this? I don't know the answer.
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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MrIndifference
06/20/01 11:55 AM
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Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Going on the theory of God knowing all possible choices and outcomes, isn't is possible that by God knowing a spacific choice or action that He could know a chain of events that are to follow. For example: If I killed the president, couldn't I pretty well know for a fact that I would be put on the FBI's most wanted list, hunted down, arrested, prossecuted and recieve the death penalty for that action? OK bad example, and I probably just got another page added to my file at the FBI, but I think you probably get my point.
I think that I read somewhere that every action has an equal but opposite reaction. Alot of times the reaction is not all that hard to figure out.
MrIndifference
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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chadd
06/20/01 1:37 PM
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RE: Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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One reason that God gives prophecy is so that we might know that He alone is God, that His will, will be done. Infact there is a verse somewhere stating precisely this (think somewhere in the first 5 books). God need not have any amount of foreknowledge beyond the knowing that he truly is Almighty, has power over all, has perfect knowledge of the character of every individual, and that these facts will remain unchanged. Hence, no matter what the situation ends up being, God has declared that at such and such a time he will interact with the world to bring about the things that he spoke through his prophet so that we might know that He alone is God. Why is any foreknowledge needed for a being who has power over the present to bring about anything in an instant if He so wills it?
There is also the very real possibility that Daniel was written several hundred years after the fact as an account (a poor one) of History, falsely presented as prophecy in an attempt to strengthen faith in the people.
Goodday.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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Still_unsure
06/20/01 4:32 PM
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RE: Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Hi Mr.Indifference:
I don't dispute that God could predict a chain of events given his knowledge of someone's solidified character, however to predict specific events so far into the "unwritten" future would tax even an omniscient being such as God. Chaos theory shows that even if we knew the atmosperic conditions at one foot intervals around the globe, accurate weather forcasting would still only be possible for 4-5 days maximum. Such is "sensitivity to initial conditions". To think it possible to predict the outcome of the interaction of thousands or millions of free wills (both human and other) for hundreds of years is a bit of a stretch(in my mind).
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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Still_unsure
06/20/01 4:38 PM
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RE: RE: Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Hi chadd:
As I stated originally, I don't dispute that God could'nt bring about His will by interfering in creation, but the interference necessary would be massive for such a specific outcome. Your freewill and mine would become an illusion (for all we know, maybe it is). To posit that Daniel is a later addition, falsely proclaiming prophecy is not something I am willing to consider. If this part of the Canon of scripture is false, what else is? I must believe it all or none.
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GODesteem
06/20/01 6:39 PM
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RE: RE: Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Hi Rob! You wrote:
"To think it possible to predict the outcome of the interaction of thousands or millions of free wills (both human and other) for hundreds of years is a bit of a stretch(in my mind)."
It stretches my mind as well. The big hang-up always seems to be that if God predicts something that involves free-will decisions, then those free-will decisions become void. Of course, you can either bring philosophy to the Word of God, or you can simply submit to what God has revealed. People act on their desires, and they freely choose to do so. Yet God is sovereign, and no decision occurs that He did not allow and know beforehand.
Benjamin Musclow
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Still_unsure
06/21/01 6:09 AM
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RE: RE: RE: Daniel 10:20-21: Book of Truth
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Hi GODesteem:
I tend to reject the possibility that God knowledge of the future is dependant on His ability to "predict" our future choices. I think we are still free and hence inherently unpredictable. I think time for God may simply occur "all at once" while we must live it in sequence.
Light travelling from a distant star, say 100,000 light years away, take 100,000 years (in our frame of reference) to reach us. If you were that beam of light, how long would you feel the journey took? To the light the journey was instantaneous! 100000 years into an instant. It would be the same if the light was 1,000,000 or 100,000,000 light years away. Relativity, my man.
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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