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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 3:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 >>
ghost-dog-girl
12/06/00 9:24 AM
Theology and literature
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At least two people in this discussion are literature buffs, so it might be interesting to see what kind of discussion a thread on theology and literature might generate. Generally among evangelicals, not much. I have a low opinion of evangelical appreciation for literature in general (Luther, maybe you share my disappointment? or maybe your experience has been different?). Now is your chance to prove me wrong!
At the end of the thread on Abraham Luther asked, "I do have an interesting thought (I think so at least), have you read A Wrinkle in Time? I am wondering if Madeline L' Engle thinks/thought the future is "open". She was supposed to be a Christian, and that is quite possible, and she hinted at ideas of an open future. She said that life is like iambic pentameter: it has strict regulations and rules to follow, but we have to write our own life's poem."
L'Engle claims to be a Christian and has published works that reflect her faith. It's been a long time since I read A Wrinkle in Time, but generally speaking, people who speculate about time travel are not open theists. If much of the future doesn't yet exist for God to know, then it certainly doesn't exist as a destination for us to visit. On the other hand, your quote of her in which she suggests that we are authors of our own content within a set form sounds like Greg Boyd's "Choose Your Own Adventure" analogy.
Other authors that might be fun to talk about for theological reasons include: Dante, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, Annie Dillard, Graham Greene, Flannery O'Connor, C. S. Lewis, Dorothy Sayers, Anne Lamott, Denise Levertov, Shusaku Endo, Eli Wiesel, Wendle Berry, bell hooks, Tony Morrison, Gerhard Manley Hopkins, T. S. Eliot...and let's not forget to include literature's distant cousin, the comic book!
Any takers?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
12/06/00 2:41 PM
Literature or Not?
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"Other authors that might be fun to talk about for theological reasons include: Dante, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, Annie Dillard, Graham Greene, Flannery O'Connor, C. S. Lewis, Dorothy Sayers, Anne Lamott, Denise Levertov, Shusaku Endo, Eli Wiesel, Wendle Berry, bell hooks, Tony Morrison, Gerhard Manley Hopkins, T. S. Eliot...and let's not forget to include literature's distant cousin, the comic book!"
GDG-
Would *Harry Potter* qualify?
Just kidding,
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Luther
12/06/00 3:34 PM
RE: Literature or Not?
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TGB-
Of course Harry Potter qualifies! In my experience among "evangelicals" (I use that term loosely because I am not sure what self-proclaimed evangelicals mean by the term today), secular literature is frowned upon. It seems that our present day Christians are thoughtless, and instead of a tyrannical Catholic church suppressing art, we do it to ourselves! I will refrain from going off on this point, but GDG asked about my experience with evangelicals, and it is a pet-peeve of mine.
I do think that those Christians who disdain literature, or anything NOT put out by Max Lucado, are best described as Fundamentalists. The present state of fundamentalism is not a very Christian sect, rather, a moralistic group of people who think of Christianity more in lines of politics and a squeaky clean appearance than in terms of Christ. One rarely hears about Christ from these people, but they are often seen picketing different companies and standing up for American values (which says nothing of the Gospel!). These people try to shove their empty headed thoughtlessness moralism down our throats as if it is Redemptive, and then tell us what is morally sound for us to read or listen to. This is why we have a vomit-inducing subculture of Christianity which cares little for God as much as it does for its ability to live like the world under the guise of religion and hate the unsaved.
TGB, nothing against you, but this just sparked my pet peeve into action! I love the Harry Potter series, and can’t wait for the next book to come out. I pray that some day we will recognize what the Reformation recognized: art is valuable for the sake of art. And while man is sinful, he has much to offer in lines of art, literature, etc.
Luther
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
12/06/00 4:57 PM
RE: RE: Literature or Not?
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Tom, you have quite a knack for asking questions that get people talking!
Luther, your responses are hard core!!!!! You are quite passionate about what you believe.
I am not a fan of pop-Christian consumer or fundamentalist taste (or lack thereof) in literature, but I wouldn't be so quick to knock the Catholic Church--true, some Catholics have worked to suppress and censor some art, but so have some Protestants. The Catholic Church has historically been the largest patron of art and literature. All my favorite Christian authors are Catholic. What does the Protestant church have to show for itself in terms of art and literature? The pickings are slim. Why is this?????
I really think you would like Flannery O'Connor (a Catholic author who wrote about rural southern life in the 1940 and 50s). Her short stories are quite provocative for both Christians and non-Christians. And her nonfiction (check out Mystery and Manners) is a must-read for any Christian who loves literature. She says that the average Christian reader has "...reduced his conception of the supernatural to pious cliche and has become able to recognize...literature in only two forms, the sentimental and the obscene. He would seem to prefer the former, while being more of an authority on the latter..." She goes on to say, "It is when the individual's faith is weak, not when it is strong, that he will be afraid of an honest fictional representation of life..." And also, "Today's audience is one in which religious feeling has become, if not atrophied, at least vaporous and sentimental."
As for the Harry Potter series, I haven't read any of it, but I am a huge fan of the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings Trilogy and the Chronicles of Narnia--which are full of magic and sorcery--and I somehow managed to get through them all with my soul intact. Imagine that.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Luther
12/06/00 5:56 PM
RE: Theology and literature
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It does sound like I would like this Flannery O'Conner. You are right in making the distinction between Catholicism today and yesteryear. My point in bringing that up was not a commentary on Romanism today, rather, to point out how strange it is Protestants are reverting back to Medeival Romanism. Strange indeed!
I haven't read all of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, I made it through about half, but I loved the Hobbit (Tolkien was also Catholic, I might add!).
And I also want to make it clear I wasn't going off on Tom. The strangest things can spark my mind because I have all sorts of weird neuron transmissions going on in my brain that make me stand on my soap box! Even if he had said something like, "I read Harry Potter and liked it", I still would have talked about the Christian reaction because I have had to confront it as of late when Harry Potter has come up in discussion.
New question about Madeleine L' Engle: Do you think she really was a Christian?
While A Wrinkle in Time is fiction, it is still obvious to me that it was geared toward a Christian message. That is what separates it from the Lord of the Rings. That was certainly influenced by Christianity, and there were affinities, but the line wasn't as clear, which is what makes the work so universal and popular I might add!
At one point in A Wrinkle in Time, the children ask who fought the dark forces in the past, and Mrs. Which, I believe, said Jesus, some other people, and some Eastern Religious leaders, including Buddha I think. Was this a part of the story, or L' Engle's theology?
Luther
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
12/07/00 12:56 AM
Harry Potter
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Luther and GDG-
I was being humorous about the Potter books. But I do have all four (well, the fourth is a Christmas gift for me daughter).
The longer I'm a Christian the more I read "outside" the family, if you catch my meaning. Earlier on I felt the need to be a "man of the Book." All I read was commentaries! Now I'm interested in different genres. I may pick of a few of GDG's authors and see what they have to say!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Proverbs23_23
12/07/00 9:11 AM
RE: RE: Literature or Not?
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WELL, all the more reason to LOVE the Word as literature.
I recommend the book of Ecclesiastes for anyone (Luther) who thinks they can make 'blanket statements' about Harry Potter, Max Lucado, T.S. Eliot, Greg Boyd, or ANY AUTHOR. There is a time for everything.
I have 2 kids, and THROUGH DISCERNMENT I am not going to recommend Harry Potter to them at this time. I do not fit into the fundamentalist personification you have presented nor am I vomit induced, and I Do love the unsaved and I DO speak of Christ.
Furthermore, though ignorant or mislead....I will speak up for those that are still my brothers and sisters in Christ even if I don't concur with their pharisee-like judgmentalism.
Now, back to authors and art. I will gladly hand a book to my children written by Lewis, Eliot, Lucado, and even Alighieri, (very art filled) and ....while I WILL give my kids 'Letters from a Skeptic' by Boyd.....I may hold off on "God at War" or other Boyd books I will do it by discernment and according to the age and understanding of my child. My daughter read Narnia books at 10, but is planning to re-read them for understanding...(prior to reading Harry Potter etc) simply because she feels she will 'glean' more from one than the other.
For what it's worth, I believe in looking at the MOTIVATION and history of the author as well as the edification of the text.
Also, although it is great for YOU that you have extra time to spend stewarding YOUR time in Harry Potter books....everyone does not have that luxury or conviction. Nuff said.....sorry, you hit my pet peeve as well
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
12/07/00 9:45 AM
RE: RE: RE: Literature or Not?
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Wow, I had no idea this thread would occasion such "peeved" replies.
Proverbs 23_23: Every one of my literature classes raises the question of what authors/works are appropriate for Christian readers, and none of my classes have answered this question conclusively. In this case, there is no hard and fast Rule. I think that your approach is the best one: Discernment.
Tom, in my own experience, my knowledge of the Bible has greatly enhanced my appreciation of great literature and vice versa (note to all: I don't think appreciating literature is necessary for appreciating the Bible, although I do think the reverse is true). My sense of the Bible as "set apart" from other merely great books has grown.
Luther, I'm not that familiar with L'Engle's writing or her personal faith. I know that she professes to be a Christian and that her faith comes out in her writing, so I guess I believe her. When given the choice between trust and suspicion, I will choose trust--especially when the subject matter concerns something I am not qualified to judge--namely, the condition of someone else's soul.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
12/07/00 11:46 AM
Isn't that what I said?
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"Tom, in my own experience, my knowledge of the Bible has greatly enhanced my appreciation of great literature and vice versa..."
GDG-
Right. Isn't that what I said too? Maybe I fumbled the ball, but yes, I agree. That's what I was driving at. How I described myself in my previous post on this thread is how I "used" to be. But my thirst for the arts is growing! I'm very interested.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ghost-dog-girl
12/07/00 12:01 PM
RE: Isn't that what I said?
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Um...maybe I'm the one who fumbled--I was trying to agree with you. This whole communication things gets so complicated sometimes...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
12/07/00 1:42 PM
Now THAT'S funny
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GDG-
Gotcha! Communication can ONLY improve after this!
Blessings,
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Luther
12/07/00 3:35 PM
Proverbs 23_23
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I am sorry that I didn't make this clear, so I will say it differently because I believe discernment is the BEST route to take, especially when young children are involved. I appreciate that you are thoughtful in what it is you let your children read. My pet-peeve has ONLY to deal with Christians who get on the radio, write news aricles, speak on television, and scare parents from allowing their children to read certain things. It seems you are not one of these people, I want to assure you this wasn't intended to be a gross over-statement of anyone who doesn't read Harry Potter, only those who denounce it and encourage the masses to gnash their teeth at the author and those who enjoy her literature.
An example I can think of involves what I heard on the radio this summer. Harry Potter books were called "evil", and the fact that the children who love these books dressed as their favorite characters proved that the mark of the beast would be easily accepted by the general populace. They saw it as a sign of the times. I guess I am just not so proned to think the times were all that righteous in the past and see all of history since the fall as being evil.
If I had a child, it would certainly depend on his/her age that I would allow him/her to read certain works.
I must say that I am surprised you would let your children read Dante! Have you read his Inferno? He passes this off a true revelation, and it just so happens that all of the people he doesn't like are in Hell, and he eventually becomes righteous enough to where he can laugh at and torment those in Hell himself. His wonderful lady love appears in his revelation of Heaven. What is interesting is that this woman he was in love with, and his life has borne out that this is true, this woman he adores is not his wife! Just interesting. I find his work fascinating, and very good, but certainly not religious, not that you have even said that it was, this is me standing on my random soap box.
GDG- I wasn't trying to get a discussion about judging a person's Salvation, I only wanted to spark dialogue as to see whether you thought her works brought to light what she believed, or if it was all a part of her fiction not to be taken as her real beliefs. Forgive my not being clear!
Luther
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
12/07/00 3:49 PM
Dante and hell
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This may have some implications for our thread on hell....
The thing that interested me most about Dante's Inferno was his guide---we might expect that the best guide for a tour of hell would be a theologian or a Bible scholar, but Dante is led by none other than Virgil, the great classical poet.
Has anyone else read James Joyce's description of hell (as he recalls it from a Jesuit sermon) in "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man"?
Why is hell so much more popular to depict in art and literature than heaven?????? Evidence of our depravity?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Craig
12/07/00 6:26 PM
RE: Dante and hell
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GDG-
I need to read Joyce's Portrait of the Artist, I have it but haven't read it yet!
I am not sure if our love/hate for hell in literature is a sign of our depravity. Well, I think it is and it isn't! Some may have a gross love for the idea of a hell, a masachistic love. Others see that there is truth, right and wrong, and have a sense of justice. I am sure many believe in Hell, and that they think that many will be there, just not themselves! Since we do have this sense of justice, we do enjoy the idea of Hell.
Why is Hell so popular? I think it is because it has a poetic quality to it. It goes right along with sufferring, perhaps it is easier picture Hell than it is Heaven. It seems far more realistic to the spiritually blind.
Craig (Formerly went by "Luther")
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Misevac
12/08/00 12:06 AM
RE: Proverbs 23_23
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Luther:
I am so glad that you clarified your position about those who choose not to read Harry Potter to their children. When I read your first posting, I have to admit, I was a little shocked at how angry you seemed, especially in light of the other wonderful postings I have read of yours. It seems that it is not the position that you take issue with, but rather the manner in which it is done, which is understandable…
I will not let my son read Harry Potter. I have let my son read J. R. Tolkien. The difference that I see is this: J. R. Tolkien's books present the worldview that Good prevails over evil. Harry Potter series teaches children, who do not always have spiritual discernment, that the practice of Wicca is acceptable, exciting and something cool to learn. I don't want my son involved in this worldview at 8 years old. My understanding through reading the Bible is that we are supposed to stay away from any kind of witchcraft, spiritism and the like. I would also not want my child to read, at age 8, a book promoting Buddhism. I want him to learn about it, but not fantasize about becoming a Buddhist Priest. Am I missing something? Am I interpreting the Bible incorrectly? I just DO NOT get it. I would like to hear from anyone who can relate to this: It seems so clear to me that we are supposed to be REALLY careful when it comes to witchcraft, but then if you express concern you get blasted by brothers and sisters as if you are incredibly naïve. Am I naïve? Someone tell me please because I really don't understand.
I was exposed to such evil in my life, that I want to run from anything that resembles it. Does that mean I can get a little over-zealous? Absolutely. But my heart does not want to go back to that awful place. I have a feeling that there are others like me and that they are being labeled as fundamentalist. But remember Luther…. and I want to say this to Ghost-Dog-Girl too,
("As for the Harry Potter series, I haven't read any of it, but I am a
huge fan of the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings Trilogy and the Chronicles
of Narnia--which are full of magic and sorcery--and I somehow Managed to get through them all with my soul intact. Imagine that.")
you both may be able to read fantasy and not get sucked into to the worldview, but your ability to restrain and recognize truth is a gift. Your ability to do that is a GIFT. Not everyone has that gift. If it is true that 'you have nothing that wasn't given to you from above" then I just want to caution you to be careful not to become boastful in your gifts.
I love both of you and appreciate all of the insights you have added to the discussions. I have learned a lot and am willing to learn so much more!
All in love, Luther! Misevac
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
12/08/00 12:45 AM
RE: RE: Proverbs 23_23
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Misevac:
I fully agree with you and I can relate with your concerns as a parent! When I read Luther's posting I too was a bit shocked. I thought about the Bible's teaching on how we are to stay away from witchcraft, spiritism,... I encourage my children to read a wide variety of literature but see no reason in having them read the Harry Potter series when I see so many other good works to choose from. This is where I personally stand for my own children, however, I don't think anyone should shove their beliefs down others. I agree with Psalm23_23 and GDG that DISCERNMENT is the key
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
12/08/00 9:29 AM
RE: Luther/Craig
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Thank you Luther/Craig for your reply
I hope it is ok to clarify a couple of my ideas...
When I spoke of children, I was not referring to YOUNG children. My daughter is a mature 13 and takes lit/writing classes for FUN (but is not a 'geek' as she says). She is able to read Dante's Inferno, paradiso, and purgatorio without 'entering in', she sees them for their redeeming value...as do I.
As for your clarification of your pet peeve, thank you, I agree. What does Harry Potter have to do with the mark of the beast?????
However, as I disagree with fundamentalist thinking gone astray, I agree with misevac completely when she asks..."Where do WE draw the line?"
If YOU don't want to call Harry Potter books "evil", (even for adults)I will. Simply because I do not see the redeeming value in glorifying wicca or ANYTHING that sets itself up against Christ. And if it is true that kids are dressing up as the characters in re-creating parts of the books...then I will emphatically tell you THEY ARE EVIL! Do you see Dungeons and Dragons as merely a game??
If we are to be 'hot' or 'cold' why is it necessary to blur the lines in the name of literature?? If people are not 'gifted' or 'seasoned' enough (and few are), then they enter in in some aspect as in the case of the kids acting it out. Shouldn't we bind together on this....at least on the point that they are marketed toward children??
What do we take a firm stand on? only dogma? I think we are tempted to NOT take a stand on things in order to NOT be labled fundamentalist in our thinking. What do you think?
Truth tells us Wicca is real, satan is real, and our fight against "Powers and Principalities" is just that......a FIGHT.
If Harry Potter was re-titled "Glorification of Wicca" would you feel as strongly? Remember who is the prince of deceit..
Try this: pretend you wanted to enter in and deceive, plant seeds of curiousity, doubt, and wonder in children....for your own purpose. How would you go about it? I would suggest that a series of books that are in the 'gray area', even though fiction, containing real practices...would be very effective.
(I am not speaking of the authors intent....but satans)
I can see why God calls us to be 'hot' or 'cold' because lukewarmness is like this 'gray area' ...the place where confusion and doubt live.
The battlefield is in the mind.
In sum, (and I apologize for the typos etc, as I am in a hurry) I want to state that "I AM NOT SINGLING OUT HARRY POTTER, BUT MERELY USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE of the proverbial 'x'. If 'x' plants seeds of doubt, wonder, and curiousity (in things NOT of God) then 'x' is not edifying.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Craig
12/08/00 3:56 PM
RE: Theology and literature
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I still will not label Harry Potter books as being evil. Where do I draw the line? I draw it at the point where THERE IS NO VALUE IN IT AT ALL. I DO NOT expect this of children, to be able to engage a Christian worldview while reading Hilter's Mein Kampf. Will I read it? Probably someday.
Harry Potter books do not glorify Wicca. There is a difference between the ideas in Harry Potter and the Blair Witch Project. It uses magic as a way of imagination, much like Tolkien, only to tell you the truth, Tolkien is more explicit in his use of magic. He was a great literary genius with extensive knowledge of Medeival literature and the Olde English languages. He thought the biggest problem with moderns isour lack of imagination and it is demonstrated in our lack of faery tales (yes I meant to spell it that way!). J.K. Rowling wrote the series to promote good values. With the technique of imagination and faery, the lines are FAR LESS blurred for children with what is good and what is not. Does she tells us to worship Jesus Christ? No. She promotes no religion, she is silent on this. While reading the books, I knew the idea of evil is very pervasive, especially in the most recent book. You can tell it is pervasive because there is a strong dislike and hatred for it expressed by good characters.
Am I asking anyone to read them? NO. Am I asking people like Pat Robertson and the like to keep silence on this? Yes. He is by no means a literary critic and proves time and again great difficulty in integrating his faith into the world.
As for this quote:
"Try this: pretend you wanted to enter in and deceive, plant seeds of curiousity, doubt, and wonder in children....for your own purpose. How would you go about it? I would suggest that a series of books that are in the 'gray area', even though fiction, containing real practices...would be very effective.
(I am not speaking of the authors intent....but satans)
I can see why God calls us to be 'hot' or 'cold' because lukewarmness is like this 'gray area' ...the place where confusion and doubt live.
The battlefield is in the mind."
I think the most subtle, and the most brilliant way Satan spoon feeds us witch craft and gnostic, ritualistic-paganism is through certain sects of so-called Christianity. The name it and claim its are probably the most vocal about Harry Potter, yet their practices far more resemble witch craft than what I have read in Harry Potter. This is coming from one formerly involved with the Charasmatic movement.
With non-Christian authors it is very easy to draw a line, because we can take what they say and enjoy it without considering it as a possible way of life. I find Christian literature far more appauling and frightening than J.K. Rowling.
Craig
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
12/08/00 4:18 PM
RE: RE: Proverbs 23_23
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Misevac,
You say: "If it is true that 'you have nothing that wasn't given to you from above' then I just want to caution you to be careful not to become boastful in your gifts."
Point well made and point well taken. Thanks for expressing your concern so graciously.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
70times7
12/08/00 4:35 PM
RE: RE: Theology and literature
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Craig:
I realize that you are not asking people to read Harry Potter.
"Am I asking anyone to read them? NO. Am I asking people like Pat
Robertson and the like to keep silence on this? Yes. He is by no
means a literary critic and proves time and again great difficulty in
integrating his faith into the world."
So does one need to be a literay critic to have an opinion on the spiritual affect of a book? You may disagree Craig, but I think the average person who does not have an incredible educational background may not understand how to filter like you would be able to. I think Pat Roberston might get a little extreme for most people, but he is a brother and he does preach Christ and may be trying to warn the average person not to mindlessly embrace every peice of literature as acceptable that comes out just because it is good. I think it goes back to discernment and I would discourage the "silence" of anyone's voice in the body of Christ, including yours, because I think we need to balance each other out.
Peace-
70times7
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