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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 4:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 3 4 >>
Ecclesiastes5_2
12/18/00 7:50 AM
Does God create people specifically for hell?
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OK Mephi, Take your time, I'm in no rush
If God doesn't want ANY to perish, but knows exactly WHO will...why does He create them? Does this go against His character as I know it?
Are there only CERTAIN doors I should be knockin on to preach the Good News of the Gospel? If this is true (that there is no free choice, instead, we are predestined) what is YOUR take on the great commission? Craig? anyone?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Ecclesiastes5_2
12/18/00 8:28 AM
RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Just a comment on my choice of nickname....
It's a reminder FOR ME to stay accountable for MY time, and MY mouth
Not to be taken personally Mephi
God bless.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Craig
12/18/00 9:21 AM
RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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God did raise up pharoah to make His glory known. Does God create people only to send them to Hell? I don't think God finds His greatest glory in sending people to Hell. The unregenerate God uses to make His glory known, and our richness and love and devotion to God should be increased by looking at the unregerate. What if God should bear with much patience vessels of wrath? That is a question asked in Romans.
We do not know who is predestined, we don't only preach to those who God has elected from eternity past. We are commanded to preach the Gospel to every creature.
I also disagree with your idea of what free choice is. We aren't coerced against our will to choose, or not choose God. If you have the time, I would recommend you scrolling down to the discussion thread "is freedom irrevocable". I was going by the name Luther, and then switched to Craig. I don't feel like rewriting it all sorry! A choice is free if it is uncoerced. I think man is dead in his sins and hates God. He is in bondage to sin, yet that is his free choice, after all, we do love to sin. I believe I freely chose God. He regenerated me, and I was then able to see the truth of Christ, and I necessarily chose Him, but I wanted to choose Him, see Eph.2.
My take on the great commission is to preach the Gospel to all men; but remember, many are called, but the chosen are few.
Craig
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Ken15
12/18/00 10:52 AM
RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Coundn't have said it better myself Craig! Amen and Amen..
esp v22-23
(Rom 9:16-24 NNAS) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. {17} For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." {18} So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. {19} You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" {20} On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? {21} Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? {22} What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? {23} And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, {24} even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
12/18/00 11:33 AM
For Ecclesiastes...
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Dear Ecc,
Check it out. As you may have read, I'm gonna be vacating the premises for quite some time. Between work and leaving town VERY soon, I have to be out. I'll keep your question on my mind...and actually, when Modes and I get this thing together such that we can put it on the board, that should answer this question for you, at least from my perspective.
Sorry for the wait, but thanks in advance for your patience! Christmas, HO!
With Peace and Goodwill in the Heart,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Geebob
12/18/00 3:37 PM
RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Ken, you would have a good case if Rom 9 appeared all by its lonsome, but Romans 9-11 is a unit and though 11:25 does say that God hardens so that others may be saved, verse 11:31-36 says that God has bound all to disobediance that he may have mercy on all. I see no conceptual difference between binding to disobediance and hardening but even if that was the case, the same people who were hardened are also bound to disobediance that they may have mercy. Hardening is no guarantee of damnation.
We were all objects of wrath before salvation. Thus we need to become a new creation, a pot for noble purposes. The state of being an object of wrath does not gaurantee that the person who is an object of wrath will never repent.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
12/18/00 7:12 PM
RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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good word Geebob...
Someone should read Jer. 18 where the whole potter-clay thing is coming from. It may be quite a surprise how completely backwards it is often interpreted by those who read Rom. 9 in isolation. Vs. 12 refutes this typical reading. Also, this discussion would benefit from browsing the website Scripture index to see what Dr. Boyd has said on these passages.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 8:46 PM
RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Geebob you said,
Ken, you would have a good case if Rom 9 appeared all by its lonsome, but Romans 9-11 is a unit and though 11:25 does say that God hardens so that others may be saved, verse 11:31-36 says that God has bound all to disobediance that he may have mercy on all. I see no conceptual difference between binding to disobediance and hardening but even if that was the case, the same people who were hardened are also bound to disobediance that they may have mercy. Hardening is no guarantee of damnation. We were all objects of wrath before salvation. Thus we need to become a new creation, a pot for noble purposes. The state of being an object of wrath does not gaurantee that the person who is an object of wrath will never repent.
Note the highlighted portions of your words. If your interpretation of Paul's two contexts is correct, aren't you bound (pardon my pun) to explain what Paul means, then? Aren't you obligated to explain why Paul would argue as he does in Romans 11:25 concerning God's hardening of Israel that he might save the Gentiles, if in fact Paul means the same thing in 11:32 ("God has shut up all in disobedience so that he may show mercy to all.")? Isn't it rather transparent that Paul does not mean the same thing in 11:32 as he means in 11:25? Surely Paul's argument in Romans 9-11 is not so dense that he is that unclear. Is it? Given your interpretation of Paul's words, I don't understand why he even wrote Romans 9-11, for your interpretation turns Romans 9-11 into nothing more than a repeat of 1:18-3:20.
You need to justify your interpretation. I find no warrant in Paul's text to read the two verses as having the same referent. You will have to demonstrate to the rest of us why we should accept your interpretation.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 9:15 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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I've read Jeremiah 18. I've studied it carefully. It doesn't refute the ordinary reading of Paul's use of the potter imagery at all. If you think that because of Jeremiah 18:12 neither Jeremiah nor Paul (Rom 9:19) mean to say that the potter has absolute power over the clay, then you will have to explain both Jeremiah 18:6 and especially Romans 9:19-24. If Paul is using Jeremiah 18, and I believe he is, then Paul contradicts your explanation of Jeremiah 18:12, for Paul draws upon Jeremiah 18 to explain his own words: "One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Of course, Jeremiah 18 isn't the only OT passage upon which Paul draws. He clearly draws upon Isaiah 45:9, also.
Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
"What are you making?"
Does your work say,
"He has no hands"?
Paul uses Jeremiah 18 for two purposes: (1) the potter imagery he uses is in common with Jeremiah 18; and (2) what Paul is saying about Israel, hardened and rejected by God, is the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy in Jer 18. Jeremiah prophesied that the Lord would reject Israel. Paul says the Lord has rejected Israel. The Lord has hardened the larger part of Israel just as he had hardened Pharaoh. As the Lord delivered Israel out of Egypt by hardening Pharaoh so now the Lord has brought salvation to the Gentiles by hardening the larger part of Israel. That's Paul's argument in Romans 9-11.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 9:17 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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I've read Jeremiah 18. I've studied it carefully. It doesn't refute the ordinary reading of Paul's use of the potter imagery at all. If you think that because of Jeremiah 18:12 neither Jeremiah nor Paul (Rom 9:19) mean to say that the potter has absolute power over the clay, then you will have to explain both Jeremiah 18:6 and especially Romans 9:19-24. If Paul is using Jeremiah 18, and I believe he is, then Paul contradicts your explanation of Jeremiah 18:12, for Paul draws upon Jeremiah 18 to explain his own words: "One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Of course, Jeremiah 18 isn't the only OT passage upon which Paul draws. He clearly draws upon Isaiah 45:9, also.
Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
"What are you making?"
Does your work say,
"He has no hands"?
Paul uses Jeremiah 18 for two purposes: (1) the potter imagery he uses is in common with Jeremiah 18; and (2) what Paul is saying about Israel, hardened and rejected by God, is the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy in Jer 18. Jeremiah prophesied that the Lord would reject Israel. Paul says the Lord has rejected Israel. The Lord has hardened the larger part of Israel just as he had hardened Pharaoh. As the Lord delivered Israel out of Egypt by hardening Pharaoh so now the Lord has brought salvation to the Gentiles by hardening the larger part of Israel. That's Paul's argument in Romans 9-11.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
12/18/00 10:52 PM
RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Ken, Craig and Lion Lamb, please check out Boyd's comments on Roman 9 on this site and in God of Possible. You guys quote this chapter like Arminians or Open Theists don't know about it, and like you're interpretation was so obvious it didn't need argumentation. If it is so obvious, why did no one till the 5th century come up with it?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
12/18/00 11:16 PM
RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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straight up beso
I'm glad to here that Mephi is taking a break, I'm going out
of town too and I don't want to get so far behind I can't catch
up.
God bless you all
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 11:25 PM
RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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I'm quite familiar with Boyd's comments on Romans 9. I've read God of the Possible. Actually, your criticism--You guys quote this chapter like Arminians or Open Theists don't know about it, and like you're interpretation was so obvious it didn't need argumentation.--is rather odd. For I just made some rather potent arguments that you have not answered. I have yet to read any reasonable exegetical work on Romans 9:19-24 from any open theist. The accusation you have made against me is really best made against open theism. Every effort open theists make fails to deal with the text Paul has written.
Please have the courtesy to return to my note and respond to it by dealing with the text Paul wrote. Thanks. If you want serious argumentation on Romans 9, I'm quite prepared to do so. I've done it plenty of times. But demonstrate what is wrong with my brief, but clear, exegetical note. Your accusation offers nothing to the discussion. Thank you!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 11:29 PM
RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Oops! I forgot to respond to your final statement: If it is so obvious, why did no one till the 5th century come up with it?
Sorry, you're mistaken. Nobody had to wait until the 5th century before anyone came up with the interpretation I have already offered. Paul's words mean what Paul said. It was the 1st century in which Paul's own words were made clearly known. Augustine did not assign meaning to Paul's words. Paul assigned meaning to his own words.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
12/18/00 11:34 PM
RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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LL wrote:
"I have yet to read any reasonable exegetical work on Romans 9:19-24 from any open theist. The accusation you have made against me is really best made against open theism. Every effort open theists make fails to deal with the text Paul has written."
I too read Dr. Boyd's work on Romans. It was reasonable and so much more. He did not fail to deal with the text.
Merry Christmas.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 11:38 PM
RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Then demonstrate the reasonableness of the explanation of the text here in this forum. Don't hide behind Boyd. You need to be able to explain your own beliefs, not his.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
12/18/00 11:41 PM
RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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I don't hide behind him.
I support him.
I NEED to go to bed.
g'night
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/18/00 11:54 PM
RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Perhaps after a good night's sleep you and Beso will be ready to demonstrate from Paul's text why I'm wrong and you're right. I won't depend upon Augustine or Calvin or anyone else to demonstrate why we should read Paul's text of Romans 9 as I have already argued. But you and Beso must also not depend upon Boyd or Sanders or anyone else to argue your case either. Is that not fair? And, since open theism is the theological challenger, you and Beso should definitely make the first move. Demonstrate why everyone should understand Paul's text the way you do. Then I will respond and argue my case. Let's have some serious discussion of the biblical text. I hope you're up to it. I surely am.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Geebob
12/19/00 12:44 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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from lion lamb:
"If your interpretation of Paul's two contexts is correct, aren't you bound (pardon my pun) to explain what Paul means, then?"
not really. Craig and Ken asserted something from Rom 9 and I challenged the notion that their usage of hardening was consistent with the scriptures. If it is, they, and the advocates of this view have to explain 11:25,31-32 (36 was a typo). The burden of proof is on you.
from Lion Lamb:
"Aren't you obligated to explain why Paul would argue as he does in Romans 11:25 concerning God's hardening of Israel that he might save the Gentiles, if in fact Paul means the same thing in 11:32 ("God has shut up all in disobedience so that he may show mercy to all.")?"
Oops! silly me. I forgot the word "not" in the phrase "even if this is the case." If hardening and binding over to disobedience are conceptually different, you still cannot take Hardening in the damning sense because the hardening happened to the people who were bound to disobedience so that mercy may be shown to them. If mercy will be shown to them, then they are not damned.
from Lion Lamb:
"Isn't it rather transparent that Paul does not mean the same thing in 11:32 as he means in 11:25? "
yes. Verse 32 does not equal 25. what is not transparent is that hardening and binding to disobedience are not the same thing. If someone is hardened, they actively disobey. If they are bound to disobedience, they will actively disobey. If they are the same, then clearly, two different effects of the same action of God are described in the different verses. God is so ingenious killing two birds with one stone. If they are different, I've made the case that it doesn't matter. God wants to show mercy to the Jews as 31 shows and he wants to show all mercy as 32 demonstrates. Why would he use such a method? I believe this, from anther thread is illustrative:
"Paul said that the Jews would become jealous as a result of the Gentiles acceptance of the Gospel. Also as pharaoh and peter {in his denial ordeal] demonstrated, the hardening caused them to act in such ways that would make visible to themselves the stupidity of their ways. then turning to God [fully turning to God in Peter's case] would be a live option"
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Craig
12/19/00 1:05 AM
RE: RE: RE: Does God create people specifically for hell?
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Beso & Springs-
I checked out what Dr. Boyd had to say about Romans 9. I was not convinced. I agree with Lion-Lamb, if I were to take Boyd's interpretation seriously, then Chapters 9-11 are emptied of any meaning that they have. I have no idea how one could think the natural way to read Romans 9 as saying God chooses those who put faith in Him first, before His choice. Romans demonstrates His sovereign choice.
"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might standNotice that it doesn't say, "Now God chose Jacob because in the womb Jacob demonstrated faith in God, therefore God's election was sustained by Jacob exercising his will")
12 not by works but by him who calls (God calls, it is by His work to choose Jacob before he was even born!)--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [6]
16 IT DOES NOT, therefore, DEPEND ON MAN'S DESIRE, or effort, but on God's mercy (i.e. His choice).
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."(It seems Pharaoh was raised to glorify God, but not in a loving reciprocating relationship!)
Notice what Scripture says, not Boyd:
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." [13]
Who set up the stumbling stone? God. I know what some will say, "the passage says those who believe will not be put to shame". True, but who will have faith? Those God doesn't harden but establishes his choice of election by granting mercy as He distributes. There is a failure of the Open View to define what faith is, and how it is the able vehicle of God's Grace. What is it in our will that enables God to save us? Does man regenerate himself to faith? Eph 2 says while we were dead in our transgression we were made alive by God, it doesn't say we exercised faith while we were dead, God regenerates us and we then respond in faith. Faith is supernatural, not natural. If it is merely an exercise of will or mind, shouldn't one lose his Salvation every day of his life? Surely we all have doubts, so our will is not inclined toward God at every moment of our existence. If this is the case our wills have failed, and likewise our faith. You will have to prove to me that faith is something that is created by a sinful man's will which God uses as a vehicle for his pure Grace, and that a man would be able to sustain his will until the end and be saved. After you do that, you will have to show me how after all that willing man does, that that faith somehow remains free from being a work
Craig
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." [13]
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