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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Author Message
dhemminger
03/01/01 3:20 PM
I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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Gang,
I have not posted in here for a long long time. Not since the gregboyd.org first luanched it's new look.
Wow! I can't believe how many posts are in this discussion board!!!!
O.k. on to the topic at hand: Who will win on Survivor? Anyone? What do you feel are the theological implications of reality shows?
Seriously, I wanted to see what the discussion gang would have to say about my honest problem with Open Theism.
It's not logical, and I suppose not biblical, but for me, it's very real, and I suspect the same for others who can't seem to warm up to the idea the God chooses to partly know the future.
What's bugs me is that Open Theism takes away my comfortable emotional cructh.
When bad things happen to me, things that are out of my control I mean, I always deal with the emotional side of fear, panic, or dissapointment by reminding myself that Jesus is my Lord and that he is in complete control. That somehow, though I cannot see it, this is a part of his plan and will work out for the best.
I don't like the idea of living in a world where stuff happens and I won't know which particular stuff God knew would happen and is in control of.
Open Theism says that I need to engage in more prayer instead living with my crutch with life in cruise control right? But how much prayer is enough? I honestly wonder if I can pray 10 hours a day, and still, stuff will happen to me.
So in a way, prayer does not become my new emotional crutch for the reality that I cannot control what's going to happen in this world. I think this means that Open Theism sets me up to live a life of worry.
I already worry enough now, and my best weapon against worry to my emotional crutch of Jesus. Believing that He's got it all under control, even when I don't understand.
I love to see a response from all of you and hear what you think. This is less about logical argumentation (to me) and more about the reality that I am also an emotional being that needs to deal with my emotions honestly.
What's the feedback gang?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
03/01/01 5:18 PM
It is hard to manuver in a battle feild with a crutch
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I can empathize with your heart issues surrounding open theism. The world is a scary place and I also wish that it wasn’t so scary. The crux of the question of the crutch (oh how clever am I) as I see it is weather or not having the emotional crutch makes any change in reality. If open theism is true than simply believing that Jesus has everything in control won’t make that belief into a reality.
We are in a war and God gives it to us strait. He never gives us false guarantees of safety. Check out the “is truth better than fiction” thread about taking the blue & red pills. If we really are in a war than false securities can even be detrimental. The crutch is the pill of illusion. God does give us some securities but only the ones that he can offer us with integrity. He gives us the helmet of salvation. This handy little piece of equipment might not give us all the safety we desire. It doesn’t guarantee that we will not become a casualty of war. It doesn’t guarantee that we won’t get hurt or that we won’t lose a limb or even our life. What it does guarantee is that the worst that could happen to us is that we get really beat up in this life and then die and go to heaven. This is all we get but its real. And a little real security is better than any amount of false security. Dr. Martin Luther King went through a period in his life when he really began to get frightened after he had received a number of threats on his life and his family’s lives. He thought that maybe the risk was to high and that the best thing to do might be to retreat and seek safety. He sat down and prayed and then made a list of all of the horrible things that people could do to him and all of the things that he could lose. Then he made a list of all of the things that no one could ever take from him. After comparing the lists he realized that all of retreating couldn’t offer him the safety he desired. He realized he was only risking that which is always at risk. If life is a war than the only safety we have is in the risk of warfare and the only hope that we have is in overcoming. There is safety in the heart of danger. And even if we lose everything we couldn’t have protected it with an imaginary crutch. Sorry for sounding a lil’ preachy. Imagine someone reading it to you in a non-preachy tone.
There is an emotional flip side to this question. If Jesus has a reason behind every evil event it also makes it difficult if not impossible to love Jesus. I feel both sides of this emotional coin (the worry and the difficulty to love Jesus) but I feel the second side more intensely.
-Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
might-be-don
03/02/01 6:34 AM
RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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I understand the OV this way on that issue... even if the worst case possibility came along, you know, the one with .0000000001 probability , God will still work the end result out in your favor. That's His promise. That's the more majestic God I hear being talked about.
One would have to believe that God in knowing all the possibilities would have a plan worked out for each of them.
You can ignore this part now. One of the things that bothers me about the above has to do with God being "surprised". If God knows the possibilities how can he be genuinely be surprised. Surprise usually comes about due to unexpected results, but God always knows these things might happen. Oh well...
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
03/02/01 7:22 AM
RE: RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna
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I think that even though God knows everything that could possibly happen, God could still be "surprised" if the least likely possibility came to pass.
For example, people in San Fransisco know that it is possible for an earthquake to totally rock their world at any time. However, when an earthquake comes, they will still be surprised by it even though they knew it was a possibility.
This example doesn't fit very well for God, because I'm pretty sure God can predict earthquakes--human hearts are another matter. God knows us far better than we know ourselves, but somehow we occasionally manage to do the least likely thing against all odds.
Read the book of Hosea, where God is depicted as a gracious and loving husband deeply in love with a totally underserving whore. In spite of the transforming power of God's freely offered unconditional love, the wife somehow manages to blow it off and go back to her old ways. God always knew this was possible, but I think the book of Hosea really expresses God's grieved and "surprised" heart when his creatures don't let their creator's love soak in and do its cleansing, healing, and creative work in their lives.
Blessings,
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
03/02/01 7:44 AM
RE: RE: RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna
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G-D-G,
I suppose that I am holding surprised to too high a standard. More along the lines of an earthquake on a spacestation. Didn't see that one coming at all.
I can readily grasp God as being disappointed or delighted when we do the least likely thing, but surprised isn't the word I would use. Maybe it's just me.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
03/02/01 9:33 AM
RE: RE: RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna
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I’m with might-be-don. One argument that I’ve heard open theists use it this: “If God genuinely wanted to be surprised could he be? Why constrain him to exhaustive foreknowledge that renders surprise of any kind impossible.”
Well I think you could turn that argument against OT from an even more open position. If how could God experience the surprise of what he had previously thought impossible if he wanted to? Under the OT reading God is only surprised because by the ‘unlikely’ happening. But he still knew it as a possibility. It doesn’t sound like that much fun of a surprise to me. What if God wanted a real surprise—something that ripped Him a new paradigm? Could he experience this even if He wanted to? If not are not OT imposing the exhaustive foreknowledge of all possibilities onto God just as others have imposed the exhaustive foreknowledge of all actualities on God?
-Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
mn777saint
03/02/01 10:33 AM
RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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That's like saying can God create a boulder He can't lift?
Did you read what God's answer was when I asked Him that...?
see "God's will - God's way" thread.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
whasssuuuppp
03/02/01 2:23 PM
RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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Hi dhemminger,
I was actually just laying in bed last night pondering the exact questions you raised in your post. I SO resonate with what you are saying, and I have wondered the same things many times. ESPECIALLY, for example, during times when I'm making a big decision. There's a certain level of comfort in being able to tell yourself that it doesn't matter what you decide or what happens; it will all be in God's perfect will. It does seem, at least on one level, to curtail worrying.
But in the midst of my musings for a safe world in which God's will is always done, I remember that my vision is narrow, that I don't see a lot of the world. Here's what I'm getting at--how do I say this......I may find comfort, an "emotional crutch," in believing that everything that happens in a part of God's will in my life, basically, that I can't mess things up too bad. But, at least for me, this falls apart when I think of the rest of the world.
Because most of the uncertain/worrisome times I face, while very real and important to me (and to God--I'm not trying to diminish them), deal with things that are not life-threatening, not really on the edge. I can, for the most part, proclaim that God's perfect will is being done in my life and not tarnish God's character in the process. Yet there are so many people who I would never want to proclaim "everything that happens to me is God's will!!" A little girl who is raped, a mother who can't feed her children, a family killed in the earthquake in India, little kids with cancer, you know what I mean. Where is the comfort for them? Is knowing that all this is God's perfect will any emotional crutch to them?
Anyways, that's kind of where I'm at. But again, I definitely understand where you're coming from. The world is a scary place...I tend to put my hope in the end, when all evil will be done away with, there will be no more tears, no more hunger, no more suffering. This is guaranteed.
Peace, ms. wassup
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
03/02/01 5:06 PM
RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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“O.k. on to the topic at hand: Who will win on Survivor? Anyone? What do you feel are the theological implications of reality shows?”
Reality shows, talk shows, the news, the OJ Simpson trial, the Monica Lewinski affair, WaterGate, ChinaGate, our last presidential election, All-Star Wrestling, sports in general, the movie industry as a whole, etc. It reminds me of “Gladiator” (no matter how many holes and how historically inaccurate it may be) when they say that the heart of Rome is the mob. How much has the world changed from the time of the gladiators in the Roman coliseums. The United States, and much of the rest of the world is fused to their television sets, night after night, seeking the mere hint of blood. Our life revolves around it. Yes, I know that the actual footage of killing is not allowed on the local news, but that is not the only form out there these days. Blood, blood, blood… we are in a frenzy and lust after the very sight of it. We are a world full of vampires.
In the opening scene of “Tutus” (the movie version of Titus Andronicus by William Shakespeare) Titus the great general of Rome returns with his army from battle. As they enter, they enter into a Roman coliseum where the movie takes place. The movie is one big bloodbath. We either choose or are drug into the coliseum and the choices that we make and the direct or indirect effects of our choices can mean life or death. The world is watching. The ‘world’ wants to see blood spewing from our bodies. That is what the ‘world’ lives for.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
03/02/01 5:57 PM
Die, and be free!
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A couple reflections for dhemminger and others who worry.
I understand the comfort of resignation -- viz. whatever will be will be. I think you're expressing one of the most fundamental reasons why people sometimes react so violently to the open view, and why the classical view is sometimes so passionately embraced. They have a theological form of agoraphobia (fear of the open). But consider:
1) You already know, don't you, that bad things might happen to you, no matter how much you pray, and no matter what you believe. There are no personal gaurantees for immunity from the warzone. Whatever people believe, THEY BEHAVE LIKE OPEN THEISTS. They think ahead, take precautions, etc... as though SOME of the future, and their well being, was up to them. The Open view simply says, the way we experience life is basically right. We are wired for truth.
2) The "God controls all things" philosophy may provide security when things are going tolerably well, but as millions of former believers would testify, it comes around a takes a pound of flesh when YOUR daughter gets kidnapped. The idea that God controls kidnappers, rapists and murders -- to say nothing of long, slow, fatal diseases -- isn't too comforting, esp. when it happens to you or your children.
3) As might-be-don pointed out, whatever security you get from thinking God planned a terrible event, you get from the Open view -- but without the concomitant difficulty of explaining why God plans evil. In all things, God is at work to bring redemptive purpose and meaning out of your circumstances (Rom. 8:28). Purposeless painful events become meaningful when we submit to God's redemptive purposes.
4) The promise of the New Testament is not that terrible things can't happen to us, but that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:38ff).
5) The hope of the New Testament is not that all IS NOW under God's control, but that it someday WILL BE ("thy kingdom come, thy will be done"), and when it IS finally done, it will be more than worth it. I find alot of peace meditating on the glory of heaven. I sometimes picture myself in heaven (after all, I AM already 'seated with Christ in the heavenlies'), after the war is over, sitting with Jesus, filled with unspeakable joy, looking back on a screen of my life and seeing how utterly small and insignifcant it all looks. It's about perspective!
6) Yet, the most peace giving thing I find in the Bible is the recognition that I have God's own life residing within me -- "eternal (zoa) life" -- and this is better than life itself. Take away everything from me, and I'm still okay. Die now, to self, and you never need fear death, or anything that approximates it. I sometimes remember that I've already outlived over 80% of the people that have ever lived (I'm 43, the average life expectancy historically was 45). I'm living on borrowed time, so I feel lucky for every day. When its over, its over. I try to live likes its already over. "I crucify myself daily," Paul says, "so its no longer I that live, but Christ."
Give up trying to be secure in this world, and you find a security this world can't give. Yes, you still lock your doors, pray for protection, take precautions, etc... But you needn't obsess.
Be free in Christ my man. Be free.
GB
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
dhemminger
03/02/01 11:21 PM
RE: It is hard to manuver in a battle feild with a crutch
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Wislaw
Thanks for your response. It gave some things to think about. I saw the Matrix so I get the red pill blue pill idea, but I'll be sure to read that thread.
I definately did not think you were being preachy at all. I think you had a solid response that I need to chew on for a while. THnaks.
DH
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
dhemminger
03/02/01 11:30 PM
RE: RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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I see your point. I'm beginning to think that maybe I've devised my own psychological heaven on earth by creating my crutch? But what I really long for is real heaven. Hmm.... Maranatha!!!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
03/02/01 11:38 PM
RE: RE: RE: I think I lost my crutch! and other musings of a philisopher wanna be
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Maranatha indeed. THIS was the longing of all the early Christians. "Come quickly Lord Jesus."
Consider this: Because many Christians don't want to face the reality of the war now, but rather believe that it's all following a divine blueprint, they disengage from actively and agressively engaging in battle. They work to ACCEPT the world as it is, for (they believe) it all comes from the Father's hand, rather than RESISTING and REVOLTING against the way the world is, recognizing that much of it comes from the hand of Satan (and others who align their will with him). Heaven is in the future. Hell is now. Our task is to push back the latter to bring about the future.
It won't be done effectively so long as we keep accepting Hell as part of the FAther's will.
What did Jesus' ministry most look like? How often did he console the afflicted by saying, "Ah, you must accept this as coming from the Father's hand"?
If you're looking for a reason as to why the modern church is largely apathetic and impotent in confronting and overcoming evil... I think you just found it.
Fight on
GB
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
dhemminger
03/02/01 11:44 PM
RE: Die, and be free!
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Gosh I've been so blessed tonight, sitting here and reading everyone's responses. Thanks to all for taking the time to sensitively share your thoughts.
Thanks GregBoyd for your inspiring points as well.
You've all given me quite a bit to think and pray about. I guess "the crutch" really represents that last "little thing" that's kept me from subscribing to OT.
What you all had to say is a very real challenge to me that isn't quite so much about highly technical, theological debate, but "rubber meets the road" theology that I live my life by.
Every day, every breath really has been a battle to choose to die to self. To die and be free. Sometimes I keep well focused on that, other times I lose sight of it.
It's heaven I long for. Maranatha Lord!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mn777saint
03/05/01 12:08 PM
RE: RE: Die, and be free!
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May God Bless you dhemminger & Be a light unto yor path. And I pray you continue to seek him in the morning & follow Him all of your days.
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