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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/11/2003 5:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | I apologize if this has been covered here before, but I got into a conversation on another Board, (with an atheist) about whether God knows, in His omniscience, all of His own choices, ahead of time. It seems that a lot of OV'ers have conceded that god knows what HE will do in the future, if he doesn't, then what are the implications? So if he DOES know what all His future choices are, is He then a determined being? And, then, does it not follow that every other being's choices are also determined, since God's choices in relation to humanity's choices have already been known by God himself?
If the alternative is true, and God does not yet know what He will decide to do tomorrow or 100 years from now, why doesn't He? Is it because he has decided to wait to see what humans will do first before he decides what he will do? If so, then of course, the atheist argument follows that God is not all powerful, let alone all knowledgeable - if he has to wait around to see what his own creatures will do before he decides to act, then he is nothing more than a human in that regard.
This is quite a conundrum! Interested in your (civilised) replies....:) | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/11/2003 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | RD,
I think God can be quite determined! Pardon the jest, I just couldn't help myself.
There seems to be some confusion as to whether self-determined is equivalent to determined. God would be self-determined, if He has determined to do something, since there isn't anything or anyone who is greater than He. It's an authority thing. Who has the authority to determine what He will do? No one, so He is self-determined.
He would be an entity who has determined, but not a "determined being".
It is a different situation for us, who have been created a little lower than the angels. It's an authority thing again and I Cor. 11 explains that concept of authority to a degree. Therefore, it is determined, for me, that I will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. In that sense, I am a determined being.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This does not necessarily mean that all things are determined for me, but some things certainly are. I am the one who makes the decision of where my final abode will be, but only because of God's mercy and grace is there provision for other than the lake of fire.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/11/2003 7:23 PM (GMT -6) | | RD: I apologize if this has been covered here before, but I got into a conversation on another Board, (with an atheist) about whether God knows, in His omniscience, all of His own choices, ahead of time. It seems that a lot of OV'ers have conceded that god knows what HE will do in the future, if he doesn't, then what are the implications?
Tom: Hi RD. Choices are events, and like all future events, some God knows as settled and some he knows as possibile. If God has now unconditionally determined some future event, then certainly God knows that choice (as a choice) since he's already made it, and he knows that future event as what "shall" come to pass. Future events that result inevitably from existing circumstances also "shall" certainly come to pass and God would know these too.
But just as God knows all future possibilities, he knows all future possible choices he might make. It follows; if God knows much of the future as what may possibly be, and if this future includes his own interactions with us (mutual responses, etc.), then he can't know the human half as "possibly this or that" and know the divine half as definitely this and not that.
RD: If the alternative is true, and God does not yet know what He will decide to do tomorrow or 100 years from now, why doesn't He? Is it because he has decided to wait to see what humans will do first before he decides what he will do? If so, then of course, the atheist argument follows that God is not all powerful, let alone all knowledgeable - if he has to wait around to see what his own creatures will do before he decides to act, then he is nothing more than a human in that regard.
RD: If possibilities DO exist, if they are real, then God would not be less than omniscient for knowing them. So God doesn't have to wait to see what humans will do and THEN scratch his head scrambling for a response. Being infinitely intelligent, he eternally knew things MIGHT turn out THIS way and was eternally prepared with a plan should THIS come to pass just as if THIS was only thing God had to prepare for from all eternity.
As for omnipotence, there's no limit upon the exercise of God's power outside of limits he freely chooses to make on himself. And what kind of God would God be if he couldn't limit the exercise of his power, if he had to do everything he could do? Now there is a contradiction of terms.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/11/2003 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/12/2003 6:23 AM (GMT -6) | | See, this is why (if possibilities--might or might not) is real, then omniscience simply cannot be defined as knowing ahead of time everything that has yet happened. God knows all the truth- and false-value statements of the future, but it is not insisted upon Him that He know exaustively what I, you ("you" being all of you) or anyone else is going to do, as if He has watched the film ahead of time. I mean, think about it ... it'd be like all of us being able to sit down and watch the real, live drama of our future on a film, already played out for us to see--everything! We sit and see all that is ever going to happen. We know every emotion, thought, will, move, breath, idea, action, etc. There isn't anything we wouldn't know. Nothing!
This is not the what omniscience means, because the future hasn't happened yet (from the Open View perspective). Omniscience does mean, however, all that can be known about and the logic that surrounds what drives the future, but the very life-breath of the future is yet unknown, save that part which God has determined will happenen. (Does God know what we feel, what we can feel, what we can't feel? Of course, but He doesn't know what I'll feel in five years from now. How can He; I'm not there yet.) But even then, as I've aruged before, that "part" of the future God has determined doesn't have to be seen in some exhaustive framework: if God has determined that the end will take place in 2020, not every breath, action, thought, motive, emotion, etc., has to be determined (or can be known). That's the aspect of free-will that isn't included, nor can it be, in those aspects of God's determinism. Otherwise, however, God can determine a hek of a lot.
Lunch time!
For leftover chicken thighs, which God knows are good!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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