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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 9/21/2003 4:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | I have been dialoging about open Theism with a friend who is a professor of New Testament. His question to me is "Why is a (?THE) major tenet of Open Theism not explicitely stated in the New Testament as it is in the Old Testament (e.g., "God 'changed' His mind.")? He is "bothered" that such a "major doctrine" is not explicitely referenced in the NT. Or is it?
Any takers?
It has been a while since I have read Dr Boyd's books.
Is this addressed elsewhere on the board?
Any obvious references in the NT that I am forgetting?
Any other "major doctrines" only referenced in the Old Testament and not in the NT?
I thank God for you all
John | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 9/23/2003 6:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Johnmd,
I'd say for the same compositional reason(s) that the New Testament isn't filled with the historical lives of its protagonists (other than a few episodes in the book of Acts) unlike the Old Testament. The Old Testament's approach was the out-based living of men and women in pursuit of God and in demonstration of the work of God through these people's lives. The New Testament approach, however, deals with the theologies directly; that's why Paul's writings take up almost half of the New Testament.
The point is that there's several issues of difference between the Old and New Testaments, not just the issue of Open Theism (God changing His mind). Heavens, the cultural differences alone are a discussion to keep one busy for aeons!
So, it's not an arugment against Open Theism--and it doesn't sound as if your Prof is arguing against it, as you've phrased his question in your post, as much as he's asking a simple question--that the way God moves and speaks in the Old Testament isn't seen, or is done differently, in the New Testament.
Hope that helps,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/23/2003 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | | OV treats the OT like it is some modern newscast: as if it were transcribed tape recordings. It belongs to "this" era, while the OT was written in "that" era. | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 9/23/2003 4:33 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/24/2003 3:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by johnmd
I have been dialoging about open Theism with a friend who is a professor of New Testament. His question to me is "Why is a (?THE) major tenet of Open Theism not explicitely stated in the New Testament as it is in the Old Testament (e.g., "God 'changed' His mind.")? He is "bothered" that such a "major doctrine" is not explicitely referenced in the NT. Or is it?
God changing His mind is not a "major doctrine". It's one example that shows that God is a dynamic, alive, flexible, personal being and not a static it.
The Old Testament presents God dealing with cantankerous people made in His image (dynamic, alive, flexible, personal) and so you see the flexibility of God the father in the Old Testament directly. God wanted Himself to be the king of the Jews. When they complained, He relented and gave them a human king, Saul.
In the New Testament, God is working through His obedient Son. Was Jesus flexible? When Peter tried to walk on the water (which he was successful at briefly), would Jesus have grabbed Peter if Peter had NOT started to sink? Was Jesus choosing His actions based upon input from others? Of course.
Matthew 12:38,39 because of unbelief, no sign but that of the sign of Jonah
The dynamic, flexible nature of God is seen through Jesus in the gospels.
What about the rest of the New Testament? Do the actions taken by the Holy Spirit in Acts show the dynamic, flexible nature of God? When Paul wanted to preach in Asia Minor and then go to Bithynia, the Holy Spirit redirected him to Macedonia, in Greece. When the early church thought the gospel was for Jews only, did the Holy Spirit do some extraordinary things (Acts 11)?
The New Testament is full of examples of the dynamic, flexible, personal nature of God.
A God who does not and cannot change His mind, is not flexible, is not dynamic. He is not the God in whose image we are made. That's the real issue.
Personally I think God sent Paul to Macedonia because God knew some pagan Greek thought was needed to round out our idea of Him. 
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/24/2003 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
God changing His mind is not a "major doctrine". It's one example that shows that God is a dynamic, alive, flexible, personal being and not a static it.
The Old Testament presents God dealing with cantankerous people made in His image (dynamic, alive, flexible, personal) and so you see the flexibility of God the father in the Old Testament directly. God wanted Himself to be the king of the Jews. When they complained, He relented and gave them a human king, Saul.
Laika's post has both things that are true, and also things that are not true. But perhaps the most important thing that I can say incommenting on them (allowing anyone to disagree with me on the true/not-true part) is the CERTAINTY that the "either/or" part is not true. It is NOT true that we have to choose between God being personal God being immutable. God does not really have to "change his mind" to be represented in those words. The scripture is a presention from man's point of view. God's changing his mind is relative to the formal exchange in the story. And it is recorded as anything else of the time was -- officially, in 'court-speak.'
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
The dynamic, flexible nature of God is seen through Jesus in the gospels.
The New Testament is full of examples of the dynamic, flexible, personal nature of God.
Laika is absolutely correct here. But some grammar is in order. God's nature is "immutable." That is true. But ALSO true is that God is Personal.
This actually says even more than it looks like. Christianity brought into the Greek world a totally new idea of what "person" is. (For the Greek language, prosopon had meant a mask-facade, and not the inner person.) God's actions are manifestations of the Persons of the Trinity united in action/energy. God's nature is not something that God is "made out of" (something static that determines his actions and his personality).
God's flexibility is seen in his action. But God also does not change. God is Love. That does not change. But God can act as a mother bird gathering us by wrapping wings around us, or can be stern or display corrective wrath. God's Love can be expressed dynamically and flexibly. Yet the Personal God is immutable.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/24/2003 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika: God's knowlege increases.
Tom: Changes, OK. But "increases"? What exactly do ya have in mind?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/24/2003 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika: But I sense a trip to the woodshed.
Tom: adiaphora, can we add a little icon picture of a woodshed?  Or maybe a picture of a person bending over with their rear end bare but glowing red? 
I thought that's all you meant. No prob. I'm not sure I'd use "increases" to describe the sort of change in God's knowledge that's entailed in his knowing a constantly changing world. I mean, I'd just stick to "changes." "Increases" might face the same sort of problem "learns" faces. It's cool if you qualify it. But "learns" most commonly means moving from a state of ignorance to a state of knowledge. And we don't wanna say God does that. "Increases" sounds like God knew less than was knowable and now he knows it.
No woodshed today. You're cool. 
Tom
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/24/2003 1:25 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/24/2003 1:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika: Whew! (taking National Geographics out of his pants)
Tom: Oh, hey, next time use a Bruce Ware book. Nothing gets through.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/24/2003 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
God's flexibility is seen in his action. But God also does not change.
"Action" means change.
"God does not change" is such a blanket statement that it's patently false. He changes His mind, His experiences change, His knowlege increases. When we show how dynamic God is, critics always trot out the false argument that we're charging God with changing His moral nature. My love for my children never changes yet my experience of them does, my knowlege of them does, my thoughts about them do.
Laika, you don't know what you are talking about. But I recognize that you do mean what you say above, and have said the same before.
You represent that when God said "let there be light" (an action) that God was CHANGED in his Essense in some way.
That is clearly heresy! And where it eventually leads is horrible.
The problem here, and often on this site, is a poor understanding of God as CREATOR, and all the significance of that.
You write "patently false," but as creature you cannot say what you do about your Creator.
S0, WE DISAGREE. FINE.
BUT MY MAIN POINT WAS THIS:
It is NOT true that we have to choose between God being personal God being immutable. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/25/2003 9:21 AM (GMT -6) | | POW: I'm pretty sure Laika knows whats shes talking about. She may be wrong or you may disagree with her, but your statement sounds a little presumptous and rude to me.
And I believe all of your understandings of God are "poor" so I don't think any of us has room to boast... | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 9/25/2003 9:21 AM (GMT -6) | | What about the rest of the New Testament? Do the actions taken by the Holy Spirit in Acts show the dynamic, flexible nature of God? When Paul wanted to preach in Asia Minor and then go to Bithynia, the Holy Spirit redirected him to Macedonia, in Greece. When the early church thought the gospel was for Jews only, did the Holy Spirit do some extraordinary things (Acts 11)?
This a good one. Can anyone think of other examples of "change" referable to the Holy Spirit in the NT?
Thanks
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2003 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
POW: I'm pretty sure Laika knows whats shes talking about. She may be wrong or you may disagree with her, but your statement sounds a little presumptous and rude to me.
And I believe all of your understandings of God are "poor" so I don't think any of us has room to boast...
1. I know he is aware of what subject he is talking about. But...he does not know the truth about what he is speaking about. And...he is making statements about a subject in my post that really are not about what my post said. So, in that sense especially, he really does not know what he is talking about.
2. Your comment that "I don't think any of us has room to boast" is well put. I think Laika was overstepping that. And such was the thrust of my post.
3. I summed my post by repeating what the thesis of the preceeding post was: "It is NOT true that we have to choose between God being personal God being immutable. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2003 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by johnmd
What about the rest of the New Testament? Do the actions taken by the Holy Spirit in Acts show the dynamic, flexible nature of God? When Paul wanted to preach in Asia Minor and then go to Bithynia, the Holy Spirit redirected him to Macedonia, in Greece. When the early church thought the gospel was for Jews only, did the Holy Spirit do some extraordinary things (Acts 11)?
This a good one. Can anyone think of other examples of "change" referable to the Holy Spirit in the NT?
Thanks
John, God ONLY acts in Trinity. Anything that the Father does...so does the Son and the Spirit.
Consider that.
Consider too that God elected to save IN the Son from before the foundation of the world. While it is very true that God works through or around our will, or even relents and leaves us to our own ungodly choices...God's will does not change. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2003 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Laika. . . I recognize that you do mean what you say above, and have said the same before.
You represent that when God said "let there be light" (an action) that God was CHANGED in his Essense in some way.
That is clearly heresy! And where it eventually leads is horrible.
The problem here, and often on this site, is a poor understanding of God as CREATOR, and all the significance of that.
God creates ex nihilo. To think that God is changed by his actions is to deny this. Its to fall into distincly Greek thinking. | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 9/25/2003 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | |
This a good one. Can anyone think of other examples of "change" referable to the Holy Spirit in the NT?
John, God ONLY acts in Trinity. Anything that the Father does...so does the Son and the Spirit.
Granted. However, I am looking for explicitely stated references re: the Spirit
Thanks
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/25/2003 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | | | POW: actually I was talking about you when I spoke of boasting. Laika doesn't know what he/she is talking about when speaking about God, but you do. You ARE SURE Laika doesn't know what Laika is talking about but you seem SURE you are. A little boasting there it seems to me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/25/2003 5:48 PM (GMT -6) | | | Did the Father act in the human Jesus? If so, how are they seperate persons? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2003 5:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
* peace and joy in the Holy Spirit
* hope by the power of the Holy Spirit
* sanctified by the Holy Spirit
* no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God
1 Corinthians 12:4
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:8
To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
1 Corinthians 12:11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5:25
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Ephesians 2:22
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 4:3
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
Colossians 1:9
For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of selfdiscipline.
Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Hebrews 6:4
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[ 9:14 Or from useless rituals] so that we may serve the living God!
James 4:5
Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?[ 4:5 Or that God jealously longs for the spirit that he made to live in us; or that the Spirit he caused to live in us longs jealously]
1 John 5:6
This is the one who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
I'VE BEEN THROUGH THEM ALL.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/25/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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