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mmmonroe
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 4/28/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | I am a long-time, first-time - meaning I'm a long-time reader of the board, but first-time poster - and I thought it would be interesting to gain the perspectives of others on a very practical issue that I and others face.
My family has come together through the miracle of adoption. In fact, it was after the adoption of our first child that I began to really examine some aspects of my theology, specifically as it related to understanding how God works in this world, how He interacts with us humans (particularly in terms of our decisions) and what our respective roles are in that interaction.
The facts surrounding our first adoption were simply miraculous. Even my non-Christian friends responded to the story of our adoption with breathless expressions of "wow," "that's amazing" or even "what a miracle." But as with so many adoption situations, what was miraculous (and very positive) for us, the adoptive parents, was equally tragic and painful for others, specifically our son's birthmother. So it was against that backdrop that I began to investigate the predominant view that is held by Christians involved in the adoption process (and that was by default held by me as well) - that is, that God knows the child(ren) that He has picked for you (and of course all the implications that carries with it, including God's role in "willing" the infertility that almost invariably predicates an adoption decision).
At the risk of biasing any responses (one way or the other), I must admit in the interest of full disclosure that my investigation has resulted in my being "very sympathetic" to the open view (that's my way of stating that I am still studying the issue but am leaning in one direction). That said, I am very interested to gain the insight of others (from any and every angle) on this very practical issue.
Specifically, how should one view God's providence in connection with an adoption situation (keeping in mind that there is good and bad, joy and grief, gain and pain in virtually any adoption situation). Is God meticulously putting families together (matching exact persons) and/or is there a "perfect" or specific will of God with respect to an adoption decision (i.e., is there a "right" child or a "right" family). To that end, I suppose many if not all of these questions could be asked about any significant decision (if not all decisions). And, to the extent that one comes at these issues from the open view, how do you still acknowledge the undeniable hand of God in so many of these circumstances, including my own.
I apologize in advance for the undeniably selfish nature of my inquiries (along the lines of "hey, can someone help ME sort through MY own experiences), but I trust that others will be able to benefit from any perspectives that are exchanged.
P.S. Is anyone familiar with any books that examine the issue of God's will/providence in relation to adoption?
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/28/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi, and welcome to the board, mmmonroe!
I think this is similar to the "Does God have a perfect spouse in mind for me?" question. I personally would say "Yes" to both this question and your question about God putting people together, but I know that several OVers who post here do not agree with my point of view on this aspect of divine guidance.
Though I embrace the Open View of the future, I do not see why the Open View would inherently preclude God having a will (or "best person") in mind for such a momentous decision as a marriage partner or an adopted child. I also don't see why, in the Open View, God could not lead people to meet and convince people of the wisest choice to make with regard to such a critical decision as marriage and/or adoption.
To my mind, being led by the Spirit is the sine qua non of Christian faith and practice (Rom. 8:14), and to me the Open View only underscores that cruciality. If you think about it, in the "blueprint" view of the future, missing God's will is simply impossible.
That said, I don't see the need to use the concept of "meticulous" when referring to God's providence. In The God Who Risks, Dr. John Sanders makes the case that all who affirm libertarian free will (Arminians, Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Open Viewers, etc.) likewise affirm "general providence" rather than meticulous providence. If we keep in mind Dr. Boyd's terminology, "partly open, partly settled," we likewise can hold free will and providence/sovereignty in tension (tension that is appropriate and Scriptural, in my opinion).
Anyway, that's my 2c. In my experience some people want to push libertarian free will beyond reasonable and scriptural limits, by denying that God can even have a "perfect spouse" in mind for someone. I know He had one for me. 
Psalm 68:5 A father of the fatherless and a judge and protector of the widows is God in His holy habitation.
6 God places the solitary in families and gives the desolate a home in which to dwell; He leads the prisoners out to prosperity; but the rebellious dwell in a parched land. AMP
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/28/2004 9:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by mmmonroe
I am a long-time, first-time - meaning I'm a long-time reader of the board, but first-time poster - and I thought it would be interesting to gain the perspectives of others on a very practical issue that I and others face.
My family has come together through the miracle of adoption. In fact, it was after the adoption of our first child that I began to really examine some aspects of my theology, specifically as it related to understanding how God works in this world, how He interacts with us humans (particularly in terms of our decisions) and what our respective roles are in that interaction.
The facts surrounding our first adoption were simply miraculous. Even my non-Christian friends responded to the story of our adoption with breathless expressions of "wow," "that's amazing" or even "what a miracle." But as with so many adoption situations, what was miraculous (and very positive) for us, the adoptive parents, was equally tragic and painful for others, specifically our son's birthmother. So it was against that backdrop that I began to investigate the predominant view that is held by Christians involved in the adoption process (and that was by default held by me as well) - that is, that God knows the child(ren) that He has picked for you (and of course all the implications that carries with it, including God's role in "willing" the infertility that almost invariably predicates an adoption decision).
At the risk of biasing any responses (one way or the other), I must admit in the interest of full disclosure that my investigation has resulted in my being "very sympathetic" to the open view (that's my way of stating that I am still studying the issue but am leaning in one direction). That said, I am very interested to gain the insight of others (from any and every angle) on this very practical issue.
Specifically, how should one view God's providence in connection with an adoption situation (keeping in mind that there is good and bad, joy and grief, gain and pain in virtually any adoption situation). Is God meticulously putting families together (matching exact persons) and/or is there a "perfect" or specific will of God with respect to an adoption decision (i.e., is there a "right" child or a "right" family). To that end, I suppose many if not all of these questions could be asked about any significant decision (if not all decisions). And, to the extent that one comes at these issues from the open view, how do you still acknowledge the undeniable hand of God in so many of these circumstances, including my own.
I apologize in advance for the undeniably selfish nature of my inquiries (along the lines of "hey, can someone help ME sort through MY own experiences), but I trust that others will be able to benefit from any perspectives that are exchanged.
P.S. Is anyone familiar with any books that examine the issue of God's will/providence in relation to adoption?
Hi,
Nice to have you posting as well as reading. I haven't been here all that long myself. The only book I've ever read on adoption is a book by Anne Kiemel Anderson called "And With The Gift Came Laughter" She just happened to be one of my favourite authors. The book is inspiring and the adoption stories (their own stories of the 4 sons that they adopted) miraculous. There is no doubt that God had his hand in each and every adoption and that people would have been responding to their stories in the same way that they responded to yours. I do not know the details of your story (of course) but I do believe in the open view (I've been exploring it for the past 2 years) and I know that it is about the future and the major tenet of this view is that the future is partly open and partly settled - meaning, as I understand, that God determines some things while other things remain open and depend on our choices, the choices of other humans and non-human agents as well as the complexity of creation. God knew when the mother of your child was expecting, what she was thinking and what she was likely to decide. He also knew the desires of your heart and I have no doubt that He could (sounds like did) bring them together in a miraculous way. I do not (and would never) believe that my Father would have someone sin or be raped or ... just so that you could have a particular child at a particular time. I do believe that the Father is always minimizing evil and maximizing good - that He is always seeking to redeem, restore, heal... That's Him! He looks just like Jesus. Looking at Jesus doesn't answer all of my questions about the Father, but if I'm in doubt, it answers many.
Welcome and as I was told, the new "guy" brings the doughnuts!
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/29/2004 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey mmmonroe,
Within the context of questions like yours, I always try to point out two things: first, we are not nearly as free as we think we are; second, we aren't going to always know (if we even seldom know) when God is or is not pulling in the reins of our freedom. What we do know, though, is that we are to live day to day as if it is neither here nor there, until God says otherwise (Jonah, for instance). Otherwise, God is not interested in telling us all the behind-the-scenes things He is doing, be it to limit or expand our freedoms.
Starkman
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/29/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
To my mind, being led by the Spirit is the sine qua non of Christian faith and practice (Rom. 8:14), and to me the Open View only underscores that cruciality.
John,
What does "sine qua non" mean and can you explain what you mean by this statement?
Thanks and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
From dictionary.com:
si·ne qua non ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn kwä nn, nn, sn, kw)
n.
An essential element or condition: “The perfect cake is the sine qua non of the carefully planned modern wedding” (J.M. Hilary).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Late Latin sine qu (caus) nn, without which (cause) not : Latin sine, without + Latin qu, ablative of qu, which, what, who + Latin nn, not.]
(End Quote)
In the traditional (blueprint) model, it is impossible to miss God's will, because in that model everything that happens is God's will.
However, in the Open View, it is not assumed that God's will is always inevitably done in all cases. Also, in the Open View the dynamic relationship of the believer to God is powerfully underscored.
Thus, my statement about being led by the Spirit being both crucial to Christian faith & practice (Rom. 8:14 defines those who are being led of the Spirit as the children of God), as well as the OV underscoring this biblical emphasis. (If the future is 100% settled, there's absolutely no way anyone can miss God's will in any way).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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mmmonroe
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 4/29/2004 1:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi, and welcome to the board, mmmonroe!
I think this is similar to the "Does God have a perfect spouse in mind for me?" question. I personally would say "Yes" to both this question and your question about God putting people together, but I know that several OVers who post here do not agree with my point of view on this aspect of divine guidance.
Though I embrace the Open View of the future, I do not see why the Open View would inherently preclude God having a will (or "best person") in mind for such a momentous decision as a marriage partner or an adopted child. I also don't see why, in the Open View, God could not lead people to meet and convince people of the wisest choice to make with regard to such a critical decision as marriage and/or adoption.
To my mind, being led by the Spirit is the sine qua non of Christian faith and practice (Rom. 8:14), and to me the Open View only underscores that cruciality. If you think about it, in the "blueprint" view of the future, missing God's will is simply impossible.
That said, I don't see the need to use the concept of "meticulous" when referring to God's providence. In The God Who Risks, Dr. John Sanders makes the case that all who affirm libertarian free will (Arminians, Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Open Viewers, etc.) likewise affirm "general providence" rather than meticulous providence. If we keep in mind Dr. Boyd's terminology, "partly open, partly settled," we likewise can hold free will and providence/sovereignty in tension (tension that is appropriate and Scriptural, in my opinion).
Anyway, that's my 2c. In my experience some people want to push libertarian free will beyond reasonable and scriptural limits, by denying that God can even have a "perfect spouse" in mind for someone. I know He had one for me.
Psalm 68:5 A father of the fatherless and a judge and protector of the widows is God in His holy habitation.
6 God places the solitary in families and gives the desolate a home in which to dwell; He leads the prisoners out to prosperity; but the rebellious dwell in a parched land. AMP
I would tend to agree that this is similar to the "perfect spouse" decision other than the fact that the facts surrounding adoption situations are all too often tragic and predicated by sinful choices. While certainly not always the case, often children are conceived and resultingly placed for adoption as a result of sinful choices (i.e., sex outside of marriage, etc.). With that in mind, I have always viewed adoption as a bit different - but I am not convinced that necessarily bears on the issue directly.
However, your answer was really surprising to me given that you are coming at it from the open view. So are you saying that God might have a perfect spouse or child in an absolute sense or in a dynamic sense (i.e., that there has been from eternity the one right one or that given the situation and as it has unfolded there might be one right one)? Interesting take nonetheless. I must admit that I have always thought the open view and the "one right" spouse/child idea to be mutually exclusive, but you have caused me to re-think that a bit. Thanks for challenging my notion.
To your point about being led by the Spirit, I too have come to the same conclusions (and I like the Latin touch). And, to my (limited) understanding, if there is a "touchstone" of the open view it is becoming more "at home" with tension. Glad to see I am not the only one that finds that tension somewhat comforting and freeing.
Thanks again for the feedback.
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mmmonroe
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 4/29/2004 1:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hi,
Nice to have you posting as well as reading. I haven't been here all that long myself. The only book I've ever read on adoption is a book by Anne Kiemel Anderson called "And With The Gift Came Laughter" She just happened to be one of my favourite authors. The book is inspiring and the adoption stories (their own stories of the 4 sons that they adopted) miraculous. There is no doubt that God had his hand in each and every adoption and that people would have been responding to their stories in the same way that they responded to yours. I do not know the details of your story (of course) but I do believe in the open view (I've been exploring it for the past 2 years) and I know that it is about the future and the major tenet of this view is that the future is partly open and partly settled - meaning, as I understand, that God determines some things while other things remain open and depend on our choices, the choices of other humans and non-human agents as well as the complexity of creation. God knew when the mother of your child was expecting, what she was thinking and what she was likely to decide. He also knew the desires of your heart and I have no doubt that He could (sounds like did) bring them together in a miraculous way. I do not (and would never) believe that my Father would have someone sin or be raped or ... just so that you could have a particular child at a particular time. I do believe that the Father is always minimizing evil and maximizing good - that He is always seeking to redeem, restore, heal... That's Him! He looks just like Jesus. Looking at Jesus doesn't answer all of my questions about the Father, but if I'm in doubt, it answers many.
Welcome and as I was told, the new "guy" brings the doughnuts!
Jo-Anne
Thanks for the response and the Anderson book reference. I will definitely check it out.
You hit squarely on the issue that I, after looking more closely at the matter, seem to get hung up on. Specifically, (acknowledging John's take on the matter might be an exception) it seems to me that the theology of most people I discuss adoption with goes something like this:
I tell them my story and they remark about how God orchestrated the whole thing to specifically match us and that isn't God great because he knew all along (as a certainty the clearly imply) that we would be together as a family.
What they NEVER discuss is that for that all to be true then God must have "willed" the tragic and often sinful events that predicated all too many adoption situations.
That said, I believe, as you said, that God did know the situation, our hearts and was working to bring about good (i.e., redemption) even in the midst of the broken hearts and lives before him (see Romans 8:28). That is the God that I too know and that is the real message of hope not only for adoption situations but for each and every situation.
So one question, how do you pray for such momentous decisions (be it a decision regarding a spouse or a decision regarding adoption or whatever). I have read frequently that the open view makes much more sense of prayer and its power, but the tendenancy in these situations (particularly coming from the backgroud that I have) is too pray that "God's will be done" or that "God's will be revealed" or something to that effect. As John pointed out, if you believe in meticulous providence that is actually nonsensical. It will always be so. But coming from the open view, how would one pray about a situation such as this.
Thanks again for the feedback.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/29/2004 1:43 PM (GMT -6) | | mmmonroe,
I certainly realize that the need for an adoption oftentimes arises out of sinful circumstances. However, I see no reason why God would not be working to redeem the situation, to bring good out of it. In my understanding, God doesn't have to foreordain sin (in this case, the sexual sin that brought about pregnancy out of wedlock) in order to redeem those involved from the repercussions of that situation.
In the same way, I don't think God foreordained the sin of Adam (though He obviously saw it as a possibility). To grossly understate the case, God certainly has worked very hard to redeem the situation brought about by the first sin!
Given this perspective, I can affirm that God worked to redeem the situation in the case you describe, though He did not cause the sin which brought about the situation.
You asked:
quote:
So are you saying that God might have a perfect spouse or child in an absolute sense or in a dynamic sense (i.e., that there has been from eternity the one right one or that given the situation and as it has unfolded there might be one right one)?
I would opt for the "dynamic sense." That is, "given the situation as it unfolded, the Lord directed your steps to the right choice." I think it is crucial to keep in mind that the Open View sees guidance synergistically (working together with), rather than monergistically (God is the ultimate cause of all things, as in determinism/Calvinism). Of course it should be noted that the leadership of the Holy Spirit presupposes that the believer is truly submitted to such leadership. In other words, it's not automatic.
Blessings,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/29/2004 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by mmmonroe
[quote]
So one question, how do you pray for such momentous decisions (be it a decision regarding a spouse or a decision regarding adoption or whatever). I have read frequently that the open view makes much more sense of prayer and its power, but the tendenancy in these situations (particularly coming from the backgroud that I have) is too pray that "God's will be done" or that "God's will be revealed" or something to that effect. As John pointed out, if you believe in meticulous providence that is actually nonsensical. It will always be so. But coming from the open view, how would one pray about a situation such as this.
I would pray, "Father, lead us in the way that you would have us to go; Jesus, Good and Gentle Shepherd, lead us in the paths of righteousness for Your name's sake; Holy Spirit, guide us into all truth."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/29/2004 7:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
To my mind, being led by the Spirit is the sine qua non of Christian faith and practice (Rom. 8:14), and to me the Open View only underscores that cruciality.
John,
What does "sine qua non" mean and can you explain what you mean by this statement?
Thanks and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
From dictionary.com:
si·ne qua non ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn kwä nn, nn, sn, kw)
n.
An essential element or condition: “The perfect cake is the sine qua non of the carefully planned modern wedding” (J.M. Hilary).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Late Latin sine qu (caus) nn, without which (cause) not : Latin sine, without + Latin qu, ablative of qu, which, what, who + Latin nn, not.]
(End Quote)
In the traditional (blueprint) model, it is impossible to miss God's will, because in that model everything that happens is God's will.
However, in the Open View, it is not assumed that God's will is always inevitably done in all cases. Also, in the Open View the dynamic relationship of the believer to God is powerfully underscored.
Thus, my statement about being led by the Spirit being both crucial to Christian faith & practice (Rom. 8:14 defines those who are being led of the Spirit as the children of God), as well as the OV underscoring this biblical emphasis. (If the future is 100% settled, there's absolutely no way anyone can miss God's will in any way).
Thank you John,
"I once was blind but..."
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/29/2004 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by mmmonroe
[quote]
So one question, how do you pray for such momentous decisions (be it a decision regarding a spouse or a decision regarding adoption or whatever). I have read frequently that the open view makes much more sense of prayer and its power, but the tendenancy in these situations (particularly coming from the backgroud that I have) is too pray that "God's will be done" or that "God's will be revealed" or something to that effect. As John pointed out, if you believe in meticulous providence that is actually nonsensical. It will always be so. But coming from the open view, how would one pray about a situation such as this.
Hello again,
I do believe that prayer is vital (as you do) and that God moves accordingly. He doesn't always give us what we want and He doesn't always get what He wants. But the future is partly open and partly settled and that is why prayer is crucial. I do believe that it is right to pray about an opportunity and that God, knowing each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility to be known, can and does direct you by His Spirit in your decisions. I do not believe there is only one child or one spouse, but I do believe as John that God may have someone who would be best for you. If you somehow miss that, there will be another "best." I don't believe God has a blueprint for our lives, but He knows us so intimately that He does know what would be good for our lives and leads us and speaks to us and it is up to us to listen, to be led and to respond.
One thing that I have realized is that many people who believe (or say they believe that God has absolute meticulous control and exhaustive divine foreknowledge - actually pray as if they believed that the future was partly open and partly settled. Our theology needs to make practical sense in our life as believers and this view makes the most sense to me).
I hope some of this makes sense to you! 
God Bless you and your little family!
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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