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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/31/2004 4:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | Lee,
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Lee: But John 21:17 was after the resurrection! And 1 Jn. 3:20 is after the ascension, and after Jesus said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Mt. 28:18).
Jeff: Acts 1:7 says "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in is own authority." This might be saying that Christ STILL did not know the day or hour of his parousia. Besides, I'm not aware of a verse that says just because Christ resurrected/ascended He took on omniscience, are you?
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True enough, it's a deduction. Just like you are making deductions, and I believe it is more likely that Jesus is now omniscient, since he is certainly God, and God knows everything.
So was He NOT God between his birth and His ressurection?
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... when you say God foreknows his LFW choices, you are appealing to the "mysterious," in the sense that the human mind can never understand it regardless of how much information is given. I.e., it is counter-intuitive, or at least supra-intuitive. The verses don't REQUIRE us to hold to such an extreme view.
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No, again, this is a deduction, but still a sound one, I think. Most of Christendom has believed these two points throughout the centuries, that God knows all the past, present and future, and that he chooses freely. And this implies God knowing his decisions, and yet having them remain free.
I believed the same thing once. But once I learned a bit about hermeneutics, and the danger of presuppositions (eisegesis), I re-evaluated it. Tradition is fine if it is tested. But "prove all things."
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... just because a verse CAN be taken absolutely does not mean it should be. That's why you weren't able to show a consensus of non-OV'er commentators who hold your view.
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I must have missed that, what point was that in reference to? The only appeal to such tradition I recall making is to the two points of omniscience and free choices being made by God.
The non-OV commentators that you quoted concerning the Proverbs verse all (3) seemed to have fallen short of the absolutist position you take.
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Language is not like math. Thus, one MUST discuss metaphysics and hermeneutics before a fruitful conversation about scripture can happen.
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Metaphysics and hermeneutics are important! But we may understand Scripture without having those concepts all sorted out:
2CO 1:13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.
MT 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."
"A child of five could understand this. Fetch me a child of five" (Groucho Marx).
Do you think a child of five would even contemplate such bizarre notions as that God foreknows his LFW choices?
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Jeff: But to say that God is just, and yet holds creatures with no LFW morally accountable is counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitive statements have no meaning and thus cannot be believed. You can SAY you believe it, but it's like me saying I believe 2+2=4 AND 2+2=5; it's nonsensical.
To make it work, you have to redefine what "just" and "morally accountable" mean to make it sensical. But I've never seen a Calvinist do that.
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Then how is it just that God caused Pharaoh to harden his heart and sin and bring judgment on Egypt? I think even the Open View has this question to answer. You could say Pharaoh hardened his heart, but God did that, too, and it was his purpose for Pharaoh to sinfully harden his heart. So how is Pharaoh accountable?
People get involved in their sins, though those sins are in God's plan, that is my response here. They are not mere shadows, there is a human will involved, though it is a sinful will, and captive to sin. There is even accountability for unintentional sins:
LEV 4:27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, he is guilty.
How much more, when people sin, and mean to?
GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good...
They did God's plan, but they intended evil, and thus they were guilty.
I agree with Keil and Deliztch, that God did not "harden" pharoah's heart literally so much as he "raised him up" knowing that he had an impenitent heart that would not repent at God's miraculous works. Christ said Sodom and Gomorrah WOULD HAVE repented had they seen His signs. God knows the heart. And IF God literally hardened his heart, I would conclude that God would not punish him for it.
All people are guilty of sin, even those sins they can't help but do. The penalty of sin is death. But death is an "enemy" of God and so is sin. The OV says Satan didn't HAVE to sin, and thus neither did Adam - it was not inevitable.
But there seems to be in scripture an accountability of works for which we are punished (not just die). It is counter-intuitive to believe a benevolent being would bring suffering on someone for doing something they had no ability to do otherwise.
You've already admitted, if I remember correctly, that we only know of final (i.e,. LFW) and secondary causes. If humans have no LFW, then their will, choice, or whatever you want to call it, is explicable ONLY in terms of secondary causes - completely determined by antecedent conditions or the fiat of God, Satan, etc. Thus, saying they are "involved" in their sins is meaningless.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/1/2004 3:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: True enough, it's a deduction. Just like you are making deductions, and I believe it is more likely that Jesus is now omniscient, since he is certainly God, and God knows everything.
So was He NOT God between his birth and His resurrection?
Certainly he was God. But he could put off certain attributes, I believe, such as omnipresence. Surely Jesus was not omnipresent, while he was on earth. I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father:
JN 11:42 I knew that you always hear me...
But not direct access to all power and all knowledge, I think:
MT 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
quote:
Jeff: ... when you say God foreknows his LFW choices, you are appealing to the "mysterious," ...
Lee: No, again, this is a deduction, but still a sound one, I think. Most of Christendom has believed these two points throughout the centuries, that God knows all the past, present and future, and that he chooses freely. And this implies God knowing his decisions, and yet having them remain free.
Jeff: I believed the same thing once. But once I learned a bit about hermeneutics, and the danger of presuppositions (eisegesis), I re-evaluated it. Tradition is fine if it is tested. But "prove all things."
Again, this is a deduction, not a proof. You must make deductions as well, and one of the important factors to give consideration to is the conclusions of those who have thought about these matters down through the ages.
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Lee: The only appeal to such tradition I recall making is to the two points of omniscience and free choices being made by God.
Jeff: The non-OV commentators that you quoted concerning the Proverbs verse all (3) seemed to have fallen short of the absolutist position you take.
I actually thought they supported my position very well, though, and I still think that is the case.
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Jeff: Language is not like math. Thus, one MUST discuss metaphysics and hermeneutics before a fruitful conversation about scripture can happen.
Lee: Metaphysics and hermeneutics are important! But we may understand Scripture without having those concepts all sorted out:
2CO 1:13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.
Jeff: Do you think a child of five would even contemplate such bizarre notions as that God foreknows his LFW choices?
That was not the serious part of my point. Maybe I should have left that out. Jesus rejoiced that "little children" got the truth, while the wise and learned missed it completely.
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Jeff: But to say that God is just, and yet holds creatures with no LFW morally accountable is counter-intuitive.
Lee: Then how is it just that God caused Pharaoh to harden his heart and sin and bring judgment on Egypt? I think even the Open View has this question to answer. You could say Pharaoh hardened his heart, but God did that, too, and it was his purpose for Pharaoh to sinfully harden his heart. So how is Pharaoh accountable?
Jeff: I agree with Keil and Deliztch, that God did not "harden" pharoah's heart literally so much as he "raised him up" knowing that he had an impenitent heart that would not repent at God's miraculous works. Christ said Sodom and Gomorrah WOULD HAVE repented had they seen His signs. God knows the heart. And IF God literally hardened his heart, I would conclude that God would not punish him for it.
But Scripture says clearly "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" (Ex. 9:12; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10). And Paul makes this a crucial point in Romans 9:
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
And the plagues were punishment on Pharaoh, as well as on his people:
EX 9:27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The Lord is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong."
And he even said that God was just! And I agree, and Paul says that is true, too:
RO 9:19-20 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
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But there seems to be in scripture an accountability of works for which we are punished (not just die). It is counter-intuitive to believe a benevolent being would bring suffering on someone for doing something they had no ability to do otherwise.
We have to remember the wisdom of the cross, God not only ordains sinful actions, but also bears the pain, and provides the remedy. Then he sets people free:
JN 8:34,36 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. ... So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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You've already admitted, if I remember correctly, that we only know of final (i.e,. LFW) and secondary causes. If humans have no LFW, then their will, choice, or whatever you want to call it, is explicable ONLY in terms of secondary causes - completely determined by antecedent conditions or the fiat of God, Satan, etc. Thus, saying they are "involved" in their sins is meaningless.
No, people are secondary causes, just like the devil is sometimes. But God is the primary cause.
GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good...
Yes, they were involved, but God was too, for a good purpose. Even for the brothers who sinned, their lives were some of the lives that were saved...
God bless you,
Lee
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/1/2004 4:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
Certainly he was God. But he could put off certain attributes, I believe, such as omnipresence. Surely Jesus was not omnipresent, while he was on earth. I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father:
But if he was God without omniscience, your deduction is invalid.
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[quote]You've already admitted, if I remember correctly, that we only know of final (i.e,. LFW) and secondary causes. If humans have no LFW, then their will, choice, or whatever you want to call it, is explicable ONLY in terms of secondary causes - completely determined by antecedent conditions or the fiat of God, Satan, etc. Thus, saying they are "involved" in their sins is meaningless.
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No, people are secondary causes, just like the devil is sometimes. But God is the primary cause.
Then, again, to say people are involved in their sins is as meaningless as saying my dog is involved in her not keeping the law of God.
Moreover, the end result, which you think solves all your difficulties, does not justify the inevitable suffering God brings upon us any more than the husband in my analogy in the other thread is justified of his brutalizing his wife just because he has her healed. If the latter is not benevolent (and you conceded to that), then neither is the former.
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Lee Merrill
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Total Posts : 723
| Posted 6/2/2004 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
I messed up my last post real good (or real bad!), those "quotes" and "/quotes" are tricky sometimes. I fixed it up, so it should be plain what I quoted and what I said now. Onward and upwards!
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Lee: I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father:
Jeff: But if he was God without omniscience, your deduction is invalid.
I am saying Jesus had access to all knowledge, that God the Father was indeed still omniscient, and also thus still knew his free choices. And I think Jesus knew some of his free choices, even while on earth:
MT 4:19 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
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Lee: No, people are secondary causes, just like the devil is sometimes. But God is the primary cause.
Jeff: Then, again, to say people are involved in their sins is as meaningless as saying my dog is involved in her not keeping the law of God.
Glad you have a doggie! But people are involved in their sins, they are not invariably mindless and thoughtless about what they are doing.
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Moreover, the end result, which you think solves all your difficulties, does not justify the inevitable suffering God brings upon us any more than the husband in my analogy in the other thread is justified of his brutalizing his wife just because he has her healed. If the latter is not benevolent (and you conceded to that), then neither is the former.
I'm not saying the end justifies the means. I am saying that the good result would be impossible, without the pain, in those areas of God's plan that involve pain:
REV 5:12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain..."
If Jesus had not died, this praise would be impossible.
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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| Posted 6/2/2004 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
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Lee: I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father:
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Jeff: But if he was God without omniscience, your deduction is invalid.
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I am saying Jesus had access to all knowledge, that God the Father was indeed still omniscient, and also thus still knew his free choices. And I think Jesus knew some of his free choices, even while on earth:
MT 4:19 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
I don't see how Mt 4:19 proves Christ foreknow his LFW choices. Nor do I see that Christ had access to all knowledge. What verse proves it? Regardless, he DIDN'T know all things or he DID. If he DIDN'T, your deduction is invalid.
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Lee: No, people are secondary causes, just like the devil is sometimes. But God is the primary cause.
Jeff: Then, again, to say people are involved in their sins is as meaningless as saying my dog is involved in her not keeping the law of God.
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Glad you have a doggie! But people are involved in their sins, they are not invariably mindless and thoughtless about what they are doing.
Without control=LFW, the intellectual awareness of one's sinning has no moral significance whatsoever. They are still as helpless as a dog or a cow.
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Moreover, the end result, which you think solves all your difficulties, does not justify the inevitable suffering God brings upon us any more than the husband in my analogy in the other thread is justified of his brutalizing his wife just because he has her healed. If the latter is not benevolent (and you conceded to that), then neither is the former.
I'm not saying the end justifies the means. I am saying that the good result would be impossible, without the pain, in those areas of God's plan that involve pain:
REV 5:12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain..."
If Jesus had not died, this praise would be impossible.
But you believe ALL areas of suffering are in God's deterministic plan. And you have not explained why ALL suffering is necessary for a benevolent being to bring about a good result. My idea of a benevolent parent is one who raises his child in the fear of the Lord that he might AVOID needless suffering. Your view says somehow ALL suffering is necessary.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/5/2004 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: I am saying Jesus had access to all knowledge, that God the Father was indeed still omniscient, and also thus still knew his free choices. And I think Jesus knew some of his free choices, even while on earth:
MT 4:19 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
I don't see how Mt 4:19 proves Christ foreknow his LFW choices. Nor do I see that Christ had access to all knowledge. What verse proves it? Regardless, he DIDN'T know all things or he DID. If he DIDN'T, your deduction is invalid.
Mt. 4:19 I think shows Jesus knew one of his free choices. Thus I think this is all that is necessary to show that a choice may be known, and yet be free. And here is why I believe Jesus had access to all knowledge:
JN 11:22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.
Jesus confirmed this!
JN 11:42 I knew that you always hear me...
And thus I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father, on earth.
quote:
Jeff: Without control=LFW, the intellectual awareness of one's sinning has no moral significance whatsoever. They are still as helpless as a dog or a cow.
Book, chapter, verse, please? This is an assumption, and I think Scripture says otherwise:
1PE 2:8 They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
And yet they will be punished.
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Lee: I'm not saying the end justifies the means. I am saying that the good result would be impossible, without the pain, in those areas of God's plan that involve pain:
REV 5:12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain..."
If Jesus had not died, this praise would be impossible.
Jeff: But you believe ALL areas of suffering are in God's deterministic plan. And you have not explained why ALL suffering is necessary for a benevolent being to bring about a good result. My idea of a benevolent parent is one who raises his child in the fear of the Lord that he might AVOID needless suffering. Your view says somehow ALL suffering is necessary.
Yes, without suffering, there would be nothing to reward. "Well done, thou good and cushion-riding servant, you have floated to heaven on a comfy cloud, now continue to enjoy yourself..."
Blessings,
Lee
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/5/2004 4:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
True enough, I don't believe in LFW, just "freedom," within[b/] God's will. I believe God knows the actions even of those to whom he delegates authority, but I believe that those actions are still free, that God lets people make choices within his will.
GE 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden..."
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If He foreknows even His own future "choices", as you've argued in another thread, then God is just as deterministic as you believe we are. Am I misunderstanding you?
Here's what I start from:
1) God knows the past, present and future.
2) God chooses freely.
Now I think I can find warrant in Scripture for both of these:
ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
JN 21:17 He said, "Lord, you know all things..."
1JN 3:20 For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
HOS 14:4 "I will heal their waywardness and love them freely..."
EPH 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
But I can't explain either of them! Nor can I explain the deduction I make from these two statements, that a choice can be known, and yet be free.
Blessings,
Lee
Is this molinism? (sp?) I think I believed this as well, up until a couple of years ago, when I started exploring the open view. The O.V. made more sense to me, but I'm still exploring.
The answer I have often heard where things don't fit is "it is a divine mystery." I know we can't explain everything, but I honestly can't see how we can have freedom in our choices, and have them foreknown at the same time? It just doesn't jive.
Do you think that it's possible that:
1. God knows certain things about the past, present and future, that He knows everything there is to know given our free will? I think Dr Boyd put it this way; that God knows "each and every possibility as though it were the only possibility." Nothing catches Him "off guard." He is able to respond to each choice that we make, to direct our paths toward the best choice. I know that we disappoint Him. Why would He ever be disappointed if He knew all along what we would choose? How could that be genuine disappointment, or genuine grief?
I'm rambling and I've jumped in on this thread having just read the past number of posts, so I may be way off what you are discussing.
 God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
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| Posted 6/5/2004 5:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
"I don't understand everything about electricity, but I'm not going to sit around in the dark until I do" (Vance Havner).
I don't understand airplanes, but I'm not going to take the bus until I do. I don't even understand buses...
I try and understand as much as I can, of course! But I don't think I'm going to master theology, even though people do get Master's degrees in that area...
1CO 8:2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know...
Blessings,
Lee
"I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream." (vincent van gogh)
"I know nothing, except what everyone knows -- if there when Grace dances, I should dance." (W.H. Auden)
J
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/5/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
MT 4:19 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Mt. 4:19 I think shows Jesus knew one of his free choices. Thus I think this is all that is necessary to show that a choice may be known, and yet be free.
He was not foreknowing a LFW choice, He was stating what He would do IF they followed Him. Just like I could tell a child I'll spank him if he does such and such. That's not foreknowing an LFW choice.
All things we call choices are not LFW choices. If I promise to do something that requires no control/effort and then do it, that's NOT foreknowing an LFW choice. And even if it DOES require control/effort, I can know that I have the will and ability to do it, and thus I'm not foreknowing anything truly contingent.
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And here is why I believe Jesus had access to all knowledge:
JN 11:22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.
Jesus confirmed this!
JN 11:42 I knew that you always hear me...
And thus I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father, on earth.
Access to all knowledge doesn't = HAVING all knowledge. If Christ was NOT omniscient at ALL times during His incarnation, your deduction is invalid.
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Jeff: Without control=LFW, the intellectual awareness of one's sinning has no moral significance whatsoever. They are still as helpless as a dog or a cow.
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Book, chapter, verse, please? This is an assumption, and I think Scripture says otherwise:
Book, chapter, verse, please? Where does it say that MERELY knowing you're sinning makes you accountable to PUNISHMENT - without having ANY self-determination. I agree that we're accountable to DEATH without knowing or choosing sin, but NOT PUNISHMENT.
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1PE 2:8 They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
And yet they will be punished.
The verse doesn't SAY they were helpless as a dog or cow.
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Yes, without suffering, there would be nothing to reward. "Well done, thou good and cushion-riding servant, you have floated to heaven on a comfy cloud, now continue to enjoy yourself..."
We all agree that SOME suffering has merit. But you say ALL suffering is required. Give me book, chapter, and verse that explains why people have to have tooth-aches to be saved!! You have said that ALL events are decreed by God and that ALL suffering is necessary for God to bring about the ultimate GOOD end - that includes head-splitting tooth-aches!!
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/6/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
quote:
If He foreknows even His own future "choices", as you've argued in another thread, then God is just as deterministic as you believe we are.
No, I would say, because of verses such as these:
HOS 14:4 "I will heal their waywardness and love them freely..."
EPH 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
It helps to believe that God is not in time, as well! If God doesn't move through time like we do, then we don't get into certain tangles. For example saying that God makes a free decision on Monday that he carries out on Tuesday, seems to imply that the carrying out the decision on Tuesday is not free. Just what you said, I think. But if God is not in time, as most theologies hold, then this problem is not critical, I think.
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Is this molinism?
No, I think this corresponds to Calvinism.
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The answer I have often heard where things don't fit is "it is a divine mystery." I know we can't explain everything, but I honestly can't see how we can have freedom in our choices, and have them foreknown at the same time? It just doesn't jive.
I think that believers can have free choices! That God still knows about. Not free choices we know about in advance, because we *are* in time, but free like God's choices are free, if we choose with his will, then our choices are free like his are. It is a mystery! But I don't understand how I move my arm, much less how exactly I choose.
quote:
Do you think that it's possible that:
1. God knows certain things about the past, present and future, that He knows everything there is to know given our free will? I think Dr Boyd put it this way; that God knows "each and every possibility as though it were the only possibility." Nothing catches Him "off guard." He is able to respond to each choice that we make, to direct our paths toward the best choice. I know that we disappoint Him. Why would He ever be disappointed if He knew all along what we would choose? How could that be genuine disappointment, or genuine grief?
God shows us that he knows some of our free-will choices, even before people are born!
LK 1:14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth.
I think that involves some free-will choices of lots of people. And I don't think God is actually disappointed, though there are verses that need to be addressed in this regard:
JER 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not...
But I think God knew this would actually happen:
AM 5:2 "Fallen is Virgin Israel, never to rise again, deserted in her own land, with no one to lift her up."
For this verse is when the Lord is still pleading with Israel:
AM 5:4 This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel: "Seek me and live..."
I do believe that God experiences genuine grief, though, but not in the sense of regret. More verses!
GE 6:6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. (NASB)
GE 6:6 The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. (NIV)
Here I take the NIV translation, and say God was grieved, and his heart was pained, but he was not regretful. For I think there is hope even for those who sinned on earth at this time:
1PE 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
And I think God knew about this in advance, too, and thus he had no regrets.
quote:
"I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream." (vincent van gogh)
I think we can have more than this, though!
JN 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
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I'm not so sure that suffering is being rewarded. It is just an inevitable part of living.
I think it is more than just a part of life to put up with, though!
RO 5:3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us...
HEB 11:25-26 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
Blessings,
Lee
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/6/2004 8:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: Mt. 4:19 I think shows Jesus knew one of his free choices. Thus I think this is all that is necessary to show that a choice may be known, and yet be free.
He was not foreknowing a LFW choice, He was stating what He would do IF they followed Him.
OK, how about this verse, then?
MT 13:35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
I think Jesus freely told his parables...
quote:
All things we call choices are not LFW choices. If I promise to do something that requires no control/effort and then do it, that's NOT foreknowing an LFW choice. And even if it DOES require control/effort, I can know that I have the will and ability to do it, and thus I'm not foreknowing anything truly contingent.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Every choice we make requires control and effort, I would say. And I'm not saying we can foreknow our freewill choices, necessarily. I'm saying that God knowing free choices doesn't make them not free.
quote:
... thus I think Jesus had access to all knowledge, and all power, through the Father, on earth.
Jeff: Access to all knowledge doesn't = HAVING all knowledge. If Christ was NOT omniscient at ALL times during His incarnation, your deduction is invalid.
Yes, I believe that Jesus did not have direct access to all knowledge when he was on earth, that he did have to learn Aramaic, and carpentry, and the best roads to Jerusalem. Jesus put aside omnipresence completely, and omniscience and omnipotence, in the sense of not having direct access to all knowledge and power. But he had indirect access to them! And he resumed them, after his resurrection:
JN 21:17 He said, "Lord, you know all things."
MT 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
quote:
Jeff: I agree that we're accountable to DEATH without knowing or choosing sin, but NOT PUNISHMENT.
Two verses!
LEV 4:13 If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.
LK 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
And I think death is a punishment, too, for all people, for sin...
quote:
1PE 2:8 They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
Lee: And yet they will be punished.
The verse doesn't SAY they were helpless as a dog or cow.
No, I can't find a verse that says that! But I can find verses that imply that, I think:
2PE 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity...
quote:
Lee: Yes, without suffering, there would be nothing to reward.
Jeff: We all agree that SOME suffering has merit. But you say ALL suffering is required. Give me book, chapter, and verse that explains why people have to have tooth-aches to be saved!! You have said that ALL events are decreed by God and that ALL suffering is necessary for God to bring about the ultimate GOOD end - that includes head-splitting tooth-aches!!
No, not all suffering is directed towards salvation. Believers suffer, after they are saved! God himself suffers, it's his suffering that we share in, actually, and not the other way around. But God is not a masochist!
All suffering is borne by God, I believe, and thus is for a good purpose:
ISA 53:4 Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried...
ISA 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see and be satisfied...
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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| Posted 6/6/2004 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
OK, how about this verse, then?
MT 13:35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
I think Jesus freely told his parables...
It takes no unique foreknowledge for me to foreknow that I will get up and go to work in the morning. That's the difference, and it's a significant one. For I will have to make much more difficult choices in my life that are not near as easy to foreknow. See the difference?
quote:
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Every choice we make requires control and effort, I would say.
Every true LFW choice DOES require control/effort. Compatibilist choices do NOT. But as I understand it, Calvinists are compatibilists.
When I'm eating chocolate ice cream, I am not using control/effort. Indeed, I would have to use control/effort TO STOP!!!! Thus, just because my eating is "free" doesn't make it LFW. No real choice is being made.
quote:
And I'm not saying we can foreknow our freewill choices, necessarily.
Then we are agreed. WHEW!!
quote:
I'm saying that God knowing free choices doesn't make them not free.
I would agree that what you are saying may be possible. But it is not comprehendable. But the verses you see as absolute I see as equivocal. Thus, I see no need to impose an non-comprehendable view of God onto scripture.
quote:
Yes, I believe that Jesus did not have direct access to all knowledge when he was on earth, that he did have to learn Aramaic, and carpentry, and the best roads to Jerusalem. Jesus put aside omnipresence completely, and omniscience and omnipotence, in the sense of not having direct access to all knowledge and power. But he had indirect access to them! And he resumed them, after his resurrection:
JN 21:17 He said, "Lord, you know all things."
MT 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
The problem with using JN 21:17 (post-ressurection) is that there are other verses, like JN 2:24-25, JN 16:30, etc., that demonstrate the equivocal nature of that verse.
quote:
LEV 4:13 If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.
It is interesting you bring this up. For Hebrews makes clear that sinning WILLFULLY after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH brings capital punishment for an Israelite in the Law - and even worse in the New Covenant. The sins of ignorance, on the other hand, could be atoned for! The most common-sensical reason for this distinction is that people have at least SOME control over what they do, and, thus, knowledge is necessary to control yourself properly.
quote:
LK 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
The context shows that the deeds they will be beaten for are ones which any non-reprobate "knows" are wrong. It talks of the principle of "where much is given, much is required." But Romans 1 makes it clear that very much is knowable to the natural man. When he (the natural man) acts contrary to it, he is simply negligent. The ignorance referred to in this verse is ignorance of the Lord's REVEALED will.
This is in perfect accord with Paul's claim that REVELATION causes the sin to abound (i.e, become TRANSGRESSION) and works WRATH in God. Sinning in ignorance does not work such wrath.
quote:
No, I can't find a verse that says that! But I can find verses that imply that, I think:
2PE 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity...
No OV'er that I'm aware of denies that people can become enslaved to divers lusts and pleasures. But we see that enslavement as a result of taking the path of least resistance rather than using their volition to abstain from such activity. Read Romans 1; it talks of people being "given over" to a reprobate mind due to their refusal to glorify God as God and give thanks to Him. It strongly suggests that they COULD, but DON'T. Hence, it says "therefore they are without excuse." Same idea in Ephesians where it says they "cast off all feeling" - i.e., they harden their heart and BECOME ignorant, therefore. Their ignorance is their own doing.
quote:
No, not all suffering is directed towards salvation. Believers suffer, after they are saved! God himself suffers, it's his suffering that we share in, actually, and not the other way around. But God is not a masochist!
All suffering is borne by God, I believe, and thus is for a good purpose:
Since you believe even un-believers will be saved, then if their suffering is not for salvation or sanctification, why does God decree it if he's not a masochist? Please answer this question this time!
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timlings
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| Posted 6/7/2004 1:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey y'all
Really good thread guys!
I just wanted to make a few points really...
My problem with Calvinism (as I understand it  ) is that to me is sounds like doublethink. From our point of view we've got to live life as if our choices were real, that the future isn't settled yet, etc. Yet from God's point of view, he decides everything and know exactly what will happen. They, to me, sound like contradictions. Like a square circle. Just because we can put it in writing doesn't make it work! Even though we can say "God determines my free-will actions" doesn't make it make sense or even be possible.
It reminds me of a little bit from Douglas Adams' Hitch-Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy..."he then went on to prove that black was white and promptly was killed on the next zebra crossing".
Anyway.
Some thoughts about Jesus' death on the cross. The way I understand it, Jesus didn't die to forgive our sins, his dying was him forgiving our sins. The same works with us...when we forgive someone, we pay the debt they owe us ourselves. The debt doesn't just go away: we have to get it cleared ourselves. The same is with God; his anger towards our sin and rebellion can't just disappear, it has to be dealt with. So God takes it out on himself, through his son in the form of sinful flesh on the cross. So now God can relate to us without squishing his anger inside him. Unresolved anger issues eventually cause loads of problems, mental and physical, so God, being the most healthiest being in the universe, has to deal with them.
Anyway, I best be off.
love in Christ
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/7/2004 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
MT 13:35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
Lee: I think Jesus freely told his parables...
It takes no unique foreknowledge for me to foreknow that I will get up and go to work in the morning. That's the difference, and it's a significant one. For I will have to make much more difficult choices in my life that are not near as easy to foreknow.
Are you saying Jesus did not freely tell his parables? And know that he would tell them? And if it's an easy choice, that doesn't make it not be free.
quote:
Lee: Every choice we make requires control and effort, I would say.
Jeff: Every true LFW choice DOES require control/effort. Compatibilist choices do NOT. But as I understand it, Calvinists are compatibilists.
When I'm eating chocolate ice cream, I am not using control/effort. Indeed, I would have to use control/effort TO STOP!!!! Thus, just because my eating is "free" doesn't make it LFW. No real choice is being made.
Again, a choice is not free because it is difficult, and not free because it is easy, I think. And I am not a compatibilist, I believe that unbelievers are bound in sin, and unable to choose freely, and that believers are freed by Christ, and able to make real choices within God's will.
quote:
The problem with using JN 21:17 (post-ressurection) is that there are other verses, like JN 2:24-25, JN 16:30, etc., that demonstrate the equivocal nature of that verse.
Yes, but the verses I quoted are post-resurrection, thus I think my view here is consistent with the pre-resurrection verses you mentioned. "Know all things" could refer to access to all knowledge in Jn. 16:30. Or it could mean that Jesus did have direct access to all knowledge at that point.
quote:
LEV 4:13 If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.
Hebrews makes clear that sinning WILLFULLY after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH brings capital punishment for an Israelite in the Law - and even worse in the New Covenant. The sins of ignorance, on the other hand, could be atoned for!
Yes, but the atonement turns aside the punishment. It doesn't mean there was no punishment.
quote:
LK 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
The context shows that the deeds they will be beaten for are ones which any non-reprobate "knows" are wrong. ... The ignorance referred to in this verse is ignorance of the Lord's REVEALED will.
I'm not sure what you mean here, though. I think the verse here says someone did something that they didn't know was wrong.
quote:
2PE 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity...
No OV'er that I'm aware of denies that people can become enslaved to divers lusts and pleasures. But we see that enslavement as a result of taking the path of least resistance rather than using their volition to abstain from such activity. Read Romans 1; it talks of people being "given over" to a reprobate mind due to their refusal to glorify God as God and give thanks to Him.
Then righteousness could have come through the law, and Christ died needlessly.
quote:
Lee: God himself suffers, it's his suffering that we share in, actually, and not the other way around. But God is not a masochist! All suffering is borne by God, I believe, and thus is for a good purpose...
Jeff: Since you believe even un-believers will be saved, then if their suffering is not for salvation or sanctification, why does God decree it if he's not a masochist? Please answer this question this time!
I can't explain the purpose of everyones' suffering! I don't know the reason for whatever measure of suffering I have experienced, much less other people. But if God bears it, then he's wise enough to know why. And we have good reason to believe that God bears suffering.
quote:
Timlings: Even though we can say "God determines my free-will actions" doesn't make it make sense or even be possible.
I agree, that doesn't make sense. I believe that unbelievers are captive to sin, and not free, and that believers can make real choices, within God's will:
JN 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
quote:
The same is with God; his anger towards our sin and rebellion can't just disappear, it has to be dealt with.
I agree! Though I wouldn't say God takes his anger out on himself, I would state that a little differently, and say that he bears our punishment himself.
JN 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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| Posted 6/9/2004 4:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MT 13:35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
Lee: I think Jesus freely told his parables...
It takes no unique foreknowledge for me to foreknow that I will get up and go to work in the morning. That's the difference, and it's a significant one. For I will have to make much more difficult choices in my life that are not near as easy to foreknow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you saying Jesus did not freely tell his parables? And know that he would tell them? And if it's an easy choice, that doesn't make it not be free.
I'm saying that I know I'll get up and go to work tomorrow - unless something beyond my control happens, etc. But so what? No super-human foreknowledge is necessary for this. Compatibilists call their choices "free" even though they are deterministic.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee: Every choice we make requires control and effort, I would say.
Jeff: Every true LFW choice DOES require control/effort. Compatibilist choices do NOT. But as I understand it, Calvinists are compatibilists.
When I'm eating chocolate ice cream, I am not using control/effort. Indeed, I would have to use control/effort TO STOP!!!! Thus, just because my eating is "free" doesn't make it LFW. No real choice is being made.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, a choice is not free because it is difficult, and not free because it is easy, I think. And I am not a compatibilist, I believe that unbelievers are bound in sin, and unable to choose freely, and that believers are freed by Christ, and able to make real choices within God's will.
Some actions that we call choices are merely the acting out of our strongest impulses. AGAIN, I know of only final and efficient causes. If the self is not a final cause (i.e., capable of LFW), then we have only blind, efficient causes left to explain phenomena. It's really that simple. Quoting verses doesn't change that.
quote:
quote:
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The problem with using JN 21:17 (post-ressurection) is that there are other verses, like JN 2:24-25, JN 16:30, etc., that demonstrate the equivocal nature of that verse.
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Yes, but the verses I quoted are post-resurrection, thus I think my view here is consistent with the pre-resurrection verses you mentioned. "Know all things" could refer to access to all knowledge in Jn. 16:30. Or it could mean that Jesus did have direct access to all knowledge at that point.
AGAIN, you've already admitted that he had to learn carpentry, etc., so you can't PROVE what you're saying. Your assuming it. That's what I mean when I say those verses are equivocal.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEV 4:13 If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.
Hebrews makes clear that sinning WILLFULLY after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH brings capital punishment for an Israelite in the Law - and even worse in the New Covenant. The sins of ignorance, on the other hand, could be atoned for!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but the atonement turns aside the punishment. It doesn't mean there was no punishment.
What was the punishment? Death or suffering?
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/10/2004 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: Are you saying Jesus did not freely tell his parables? And know that he would tell them? And if it's an easy choice, that doesn't make it not be free.
Jeff: I'm saying that I know I'll get up and go to work tomorrow - unless something beyond my control happens, etc. But so what? No super-human foreknowledge is necessary for this. Compatibilists call their choices "free" even though they are deterministic.
Well, I disagree with compatibilistic-freedom. But again, a choice may be easy, and yet free.
quote:
Jeff: Some actions that we call choices are merely the acting out of our strongest impulses. AGAIN, I know of only final and efficient causes. If the self is not a final cause (i.e., capable of LFW), then we have only blind, efficient causes left to explain phenomena. It's really that simple. Quoting verses doesn't change that.
If God can grant real authority to Jesus, and Jesus can really choose, and if Jesus can give authority to believers, and believers can really choose, then we have freedom, even though not libertarian freedom. People in heaven, and Jesus, cannot choose to sin. But they can still choose. That's what I believe, and that's what I quote verses to try and demonstrate that this is true.
quote:
Jeff: AGAIN, you've already admitted that he had to learn carpentry, etc., so you can't PROVE what you're saying. Your assuming it. That's what I mean when I say those verses are equivocal.
No the verses weren't about learning, they were about knowing, and they were primarily post-resurrection. Thus Jesus learning carpentry does not affect those verses, and they are not therefore equivocal, just because Jesus learned Aramaic while he was on earth.
quote:
Jeff: Hebrews makes clear that sinning WILLFULLY after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH brings capital punishment for an Israelite in the Law - and even worse in the New Covenant. The sins of ignorance, on the other hand, could be atoned for!
Lee: Yes, but the atonement turns aside the punishment. It doesn't mean there was no punishment.
Jeff: What was the punishment? Death or suffering?
Death is suffering, though. The punishment might be suffering without death, but in either case, atonement was a substitute for that punishment, implying a punishment was present.
I forget why we are discussing this, though! And it's late, nite all...
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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| Posted 6/13/2004 4:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff: Some actions that we call choices are merely the acting out of our strongest impulses. AGAIN, I know of only final and efficient causes. If the self is not a final cause (i.e., capable of LFW), then we have only blind, efficient causes left to explain phenomena. It's really that simple. Quoting verses doesn't change that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If God can grant real authority to Jesus, and Jesus can really choose, and if Jesus can give authority to believers, and believers can really choose, then we have freedom, even though not libertarian freedom. People in heaven, and Jesus, cannot choose to sin. But they can still choose. That's what I believe, and that's what I quote verses to try and demonstrate that this is true.
The fact there are realms or areas of possibility where we have no LFW doesn't mean we don't have ANY LFW. I can't choose to fly or not because I'm not equipped to fly like a bird is. But I CAN make LFW choices within other areas/realms of possibility. That's what is so frustrating about this debate - you argue as of we are as extreme in our views as you are in yours; we're not. There are degrees of self-control (as the scripture makes clear) that vary from one person to another; there are areas/realms of possibility that vary from one person to another. The calvinists seem to want to paint the whole debate about self-determination into a hyper-simplistic, false, all-or-nothing dichotomy. Neither the average person on the street nor a judge dealing with accountability in law see things in this extreme way.
quote:
quote:
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Jeff: AGAIN, you've already admitted that he had to learn carpentry, etc., so you can't PROVE what you're saying. Your assuming it. That's what I mean when I say those verses are equivocal.
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No the verses weren't about learning, they were about knowing, and they were primarily post-resurrection. Thus Jesus learning carpentry does not affect those verses, and they are not therefore equivocal, just because Jesus learned Aramaic while he was on earth.
If Christ learned ANYTHING during His pre-ressurection incarnation, we cannot assume He was omniscient. Therefore, since
1) there is a verse in John where the disciples said He knew all things before the ressurection AND
2) because we cannot assume he was omniscient before the ressurection (by your own admission)
the verse is equivocal. This is simple logic.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff: Hebrews makes clear that sinning WILLFULLY after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH brings capital punishment for an Israelite in the Law - and even worse in the New Covenant. The sins of ignorance, on the other hand, could be atoned for!
Lee: Yes, but the atonement turns aside the punishment. It doesn't mean there was no punishment.
Jeff: What was the punishment? Death or suffering?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Death is suffering, though. The punishment might be suffering without death, but in either case, atonement was a substitute for that punishment, implying a punishment was present.
When an animal dies, is that punishment? Eye for an eye is punishment. Death is not. Death need not entail suffering. But I agree that one cannot live forever without atonement.
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Lee Merrill
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| Posted 6/13/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: If God can grant real authority to Jesus, and Jesus can really choose, and if Jesus can give authority to believers, and believers can really choose, then we have freedom, even though not libertarian freedom. People in heaven, and Jesus, cannot choose to sin. But they can still choose.
Jeff: ... there are areas/realms of possibility that vary from one person to another. The calvinists seem to want to paint the whole debate about self-determination into a hyper-simplistic, false, all-or-nothing dichotomy. Neither the average person on the street nor a judge dealing with accountability in law see things in this extreme way.
I agree that people don't view free will my way. But most folks don't think a coffee cup could float through its saucer. But that's the way God set up the particles we're made of! Part of the weirdness of quantum physics, so I'm told.
And I don't think I'm presenting an all-or-nothing view. FW, but not LFW, for believers, especially for believers in heaven. I think I can make a case from Scripture for this, too! That's what's important to me...
quote:
Lee: No the verses weren't about learning, they were about knowing, and they were primarily post-resurrection. Thus Jesus learning carpentry does not affect those verses, and they are not therefore equivocal, just because Jesus learned Aramaic while he was on earth.
Jeff: If Christ learned ANYTHING during His pre-ressurection incarnation, we cannot assume He was omniscient. Therefore, since
1) there is a verse in John where the disciples said He knew all things before the ressurection AND
2) because we cannot assume he was omniscient before the ressurection (by your own admission)
the verse is equivocal. This is simple logic.
Yes, that verse is equivocal, I agree, but I would say the other verses are not. I agree that Jesus was not omniscient, in the sense of having direct access to all knowledge, while he was on earth, though this may have changed by the time of the disciple's comment at the Last Supper.
quote:
Lee: Death is suffering, though. The punishment might be suffering without death, but in either case, atonement was a substitute for that punishment, implying a punishment was present.
Jeff: When an animal dies, is that punishment? Eye for an eye is punishment. Death is not. Death need not entail suffering. But I agree that one cannot live forever without atonement.
No, animals don't die as a punishment, that is a result of man's sin, but it's not a punishment. And death need not involve pain, I agree, but I think it's still proper to consider it suffering. When believers die, it's not a punishment, though it is still "the wages of sin," for believers it's called "falling asleep."
Blessings,
Lee
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cbost6421
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 7/2/2004 4:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Badger Vol,
I struggle with this too. No matter what you say to a (5-pt) Calvinist, They think they are right. The fact that the early church fathers, the majority of Christians, and logical reason agrees with Open Theism will do nothing ot change thier mind. THey believe the Bible so blindly, they redefine the term "predestination", there is no thought with the faith. Moreover if we look at Luther's view of "double predestination"... "Some do not believe as I that the Holy spirit works good in some and evil in others according to His plan" (not sure if quote is right)... then we must conclude that this is nearing Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, saying that the holy Spirit could work evil, much less is capable of it.
I struggle with this too, how can people of Faith just so blindly believe false doctrine? Isn't our faith supposed to be one in which we honestly seek Him, not blindly obey a man-made system?
My advice is this...
just remember that correcting them in love is key. I cannot stress this enough. The ones with an "Open" (excuse the pun) mind will agree with the logic and interpretatio of Scripture, those who don't will not. I highly doubt that John Piper will become an Open Theist, but i know those who go to His Church might think that He is wrong or not the sole authority on the issue, and might be more "Open" minded. I will not consider John Piper as going to Hell for His beliefs, but I will consider Him my brother in Christ, even if he does not wish to have that title from an Open Theist.
I also struggled with being an open theist while hanging onto my Arminian Beliefs, personally I see Open View Theism as the most logically consistent theology. Who knows I may change my mind and go back to Arminianism in one of its various forms. So I must pray for the other guys hoping that "God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" 2 TImothy 2:25
God Bless,
Chuck Bost
stu.westga.edu/~cbost1/openviewtheism.html
"those who pray truly are theologians and those who are theologians pray truly"
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