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BADGERVOL
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 27
| Posted 5/7/2004 4:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | I am not a HUGE Open Theist yet, but I'm a strong lean at this point. My problem is it seems everyone around me is a Calvinist. For me to accept and apply system of theology two things need to be there (or at least need to be strived towards)...
1.) Intellectual Honesty
2.) Logical Consistency
People need to be honest where their position is weak and doesn't make sense. People also need to extend the logic of their position in all ways and accept and embrace and think about what the extent of that logic will mean.
OK, I have a problem with how incredibly illogical prayer and evil are handled amongst people who claim to be Calvinists. They debate until they are blue in the face about how right 5 point Calvinism is, and then pray as though they are open theists and handle the problem of evil as though they are open theists. When I point out their lack of logical consistency they either gloss over it, go back to proving Calvinism, or blindly think they are being perfectly logical.
Here is where I need prayer...I'm getting mad. I find myself more and more not even being able to sit and pray with them without thinking and processing through their prayers and seeing all of the lack of logic and inconsistency and I can't even pray right anymore. I know this is my problem and I need to ask forgiveness for it. But I need help folks. I am the last person in the world who wants to cause division amongst Christians over things like this, but it's griping me so much! Lord help me to be humble and patient with people!
Any thoughts would be much appreciated and your prayers are coveted. I don't lash out at people at all, so don't get the picture that I am walking around yelling about this stuff to people. It's a hidden battle in my own heart.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 5/7/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
I am not a HUGE Open Theist yet, but I'm a strong lean at this point. My problem is it seems everyone around me is a Calvinist. For me to accept and apply system of theology two things need to be there (or at least need to be strived towards)...
1.) Intellectual Honesty
2.) Logical Consistency
...
OK, I have a problem with how incredibly illogical prayer and evil are handled amongst people who claim to be Calvinists. They debate until they are blue in the face about how right 5 point Calvinism is, and then pray as though they are open theists and handle the problem of evil as though they are open theists. When I point out their lack of logical consistency they either gloss over it, go back to proving Calvinism, or blindly think they are being perfectly logical.
Here is where I need prayer...I'm getting mad. I find myself more and more not even being able to sit and pray with them without thinking and processing through their prayers and seeing all of the lack of logic and inconsistency and I can't even pray right anymore. I know this is my problem and I need to ask forgiveness for it. But I need help folks. I am the last person in the world who wants to cause division amongst Christians over things like this, but it's griping me so much! Lord help me to be humble and patient with people!
Any thoughts would be much appreciated and your prayers are coveted. I don't lash out at people at all, so don't get the picture that I am walking around yelling about this stuff to people. It's a hidden battle in my own heart.
Thanks
I'll pray for you...I can totally relate  Also, (now that I am a card carrying OT - wait, do we get cards?) I've found it helpful to remember that just because I hold to this view now - doesn't mean I'll always hold to it. Things happen, people change...even calvinists :) We are all in process, right? Think about your spiritual journey... everyone experiences paradigm shifts, tweaking of doctrine, and changes in opinion. It's all good.
I agree with you that intellectual honesty and logical consistency are important (that's what got me here), but I try to stay open to the possibility that someone could show me a more convincing perspective one day. I may even end up changing my mind, that's ok. No house of cards will fall - because this is only a part of my theology. It's certainly not the part I'd die for...
Christ's love on the cross...for the joy that was set before Him. This is something I'd die for...
Know what I mean?
Prayers and love,
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/7/2004 12:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
When I point out their lack of logical consistency they either gloss over it, go back to proving Calvinism, or blindly think they are being perfectly logical.
Badgervol, have you tried praying for these people when the anger arises? It is commendable that you don't just believe in a theology but question what you believe. I believe sometimes people are too scared to question too far outside of their comfort level.
I will be praying for you. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/7/2004 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | When I first came across the Open View and identified with it as what I had really always believed anyway, I was probably far more zealous than helpful to its cause. I wanted everybody to share in my newfound and thrilling explanation of the nature of the future. However, I was soon disabused of the notion that every Christian who said he believed in free will would love the Open View like I did.
I have hopefully learned to be a little more wise in the way I approach the subject now. Most of all, I think it helps to keep in mind that consciously holding to the Open View is not the most important thing in theology or in life, for as you point out, whether they agree with it or not, everyone lives as though the OV were true.
I try to keep in mind that it is not one's theological paradigm that determines whether or not one's heart is right with God, and that this applies to me just as much as it does to those with whom I am disagreeing. And believe me, being a "system" kind of person as I am, for whom logical inconsistency is absolutely intolerable, I find it helps me to just take some deep breaths and relax when I find myself in a debate that is getting heated. There are few things worse than getting into a bitter dispute with someone else for whom Christ died simply over what boils down to a difference in fundamental presuppositions.
The Open View, as wonderful and freeing as it is to people who think like me, is not something worth dividing over. I do find it helps if I first develop a loving relationship with someone before I even think about broaching the subject of how foreknowledge meshes with free will.
I also find it helps to stick to what the Bible says, pointing out passages which plainly depict divine repentance and that prayer changes things rather than coming at things from the angle of "God doesn't know all the future as settled." In my experience, that would generally not be a wise first step in the discussion. I try to first get people to see the Scriptural depictions of God sometimes "changing direction" in response to what people do, and then perhaps they will be ready to realize that the future simply can not 100% settled if these passages express anything resembling truth.
The fact that I work with a classical Arminian pastor has been helpful to me in many ways, in that I have had to continue to cultivate a positive relationship with somehow who, while vehemently disagreeing with certain aspects of the Open View, also in some ways find himself sympathetic to its concerns. For some reason, some people find the classical definition of foreknowledge comforting. (I never did, even when I thought I believed it, though).
Love God, love your neighbor. Everything else is of secondary importance at most. Not saying I implement this approach perfectly consistently yet, but I do make it my goal now.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/7/2004 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | BADGERVOL,
I think 1 Timothy 6 has some relevant things to say. Those who won't draw NEAR to the WORDS of Christ will always argue in ways that are counter-productive. Paul says we are to avoid such. I think this advice is applicable to reasoning from all Scripture. We should remain open-minded, but be able to recognize a closed mind and not let the inevitable end of futile argument overwhelm us.
When I deal with people who refuse to deal honestly with a passage of Scripture, I start asking very simple questions that deal with that dishonesty. If they won't answer the questions, or offer patently absurd answers, I know I'm dealing with one which I should avoid, per Paul's advice. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that I can't enjoy their company in other ways (if they're open to that), but I know then not to allow the Scriptural discussion to degenerate into the problems Paul warns about.
People who like to argue dishonestly tend to dislike answering questions. They typically like to TELL you how it is. So if they refuse to deal with the proper questions, you pretty much will know where the discussion will go.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/7/2004 2:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Badgervol,
quote:
OK, I have a problem with how incredibly illogical prayer and evil are handled amongst people who claim to be Calvinists. They debate until they are blue in the face about how right 5 point Calvinism is, and then pray as though they are open theists and handle the problem of evil as though they are open theists.
The Open View has a worse difficulty, though:
"If you insist that this man must have the power of ultimate self-determination, what is the point of praying for him? What do you want God to do for Him? You can't ask that God overcome the man's rebellion, for rebellion is precisely what the man is now choosing, so that would mean God overcame his choice and took away his power of self-determination."
"Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his." (John Piper)
We pray, I think, because God wants us to be involved, not because he needs something from us. And we pray as if we don't know the outcome, because we don't know the outcome. Daniel even prayed when he did know the outcome:
DA 9:19 O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act!
quote:
... and handle the problem of evil as though they are open theists
I'm not sure what you're saying here, though. I think most Calvinists say that God invariably conquers evil, that the "some casualties in the war" view is mistaken. And also they don't say that God allows evil so that free will can have room to operate...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/7/2004 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
The Open View has a worse difficulty, though:
"If you insist that this man must have the power of ultimate self-determination, what is the point of praying for him? What do you want God to do for Him? You can't ask that God overcome the man's rebellion, for rebellion is precisely what the man is now choosing, so that would mean God overcame his choice and took away his power of self-determination."
"Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his." (John Piper)
Actually, it is Piper's straw man misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the Open View that has "a worse problem."
Prayer, in the Open View, is viewed as persuasive, not causative, and certainly not a way to "make" God (or anyone else) do as we wish. In the Open View, the traditional biblical Christian view of prayer as being truly effectual and as availing much (James 5) is what is implied and expressed. It is not a violation of someone's will to pray for them that they might be converted, any more than one "makes" someone else do anything. It is about persuasion, not coercion.
Of course I realize that this point is usually lost on the typical Calvinist and Universalist. I say this with all due respect, but any theological system that has determinism at its core will by definition misunderstand both prayer and the Open View. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/7/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
When I first came across the Open View and identified with it as what I had really always believed anyway, I was probably far more zealous than helpful to its cause. I wanted everybody to share in my newfound and thrilling explanation of the nature of the future. However, I was soon disabused of the notion that ever Christian who said he believed in free will would love the Open View like I did. I have hopefully learned to be a little more wise in the way I approach the subject now. Most of all, I think it helps to keep in mind that consciously holding to the Open View is not the most important thing in theology or in life, for as you point out, whether they agree with it or not, everyone lives as though the OV were true.
I try to keep in mind that it is not one's theological paradigm that determines whether or not one's heart is right with God, and that this applies to me just as much as it does to those with whom I am disagreeing. And believe me, being a "system" kind of person as I am, for whom logical inconsistency is absolutely intolerable, I find it helps me to just take some deep breaths and relax when I find myself in a debate that is getting heated. There are few things worse than getting into a bitter dispute with someone else for whom Christ died simply over what boils down to a difference in fundamental presuppositions.
The Open View, as wonderful and freeing as it is to people who think like me, is not something worth dividing over. I do find it helps if I first develop a loving relationship with someone before I even think about broaching the subject of how foreknowledge meshes with free will.
I also find it helps to stick to what the Bible says, pointing out passages which plainly depict divine repentance and that prayer changes things rather than coming at things from the angle of "God doesn't know all the future as settled." In my experience, that would generally not be a wise first step in the discussion. I try to first get people to see the Scriptural depictions of God sometimes "changing direction" in response to what people do, and then perhaps they will be ready to realize that the future simply can not 100% settled if these passages express anything resembling truth.
The fact that I work with a classical Arminian pastor has been helpful to me in many ways, in that I have had to continue to cultivate a positive relationship with somehow who, while vehemently disagreeing with certain aspects of the Open View, also in some ways find himself sympathetic to its concerns. For some reason, some people find the classical definition of foreknowledge comforting. (I never did, even when I thought I believed it, though).
Love God, love your neighbor. Everything else is of secondary importance at most. Not saying I implement this approach perfectly consistently yet, but I do make it my goal now.
Amen John, what a wonderful testimony of your spiritual growth. You've portrayed a good example for all of us to aspire to.
God Bless You,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/7/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
BADGERVOL,
I think 1 Timothy 6 has some relevant things to say. Those who won't draw NEAR to the WORDS of Christ will always argue in ways that are counter-productive. Paul says we are to avoid such. I think this advice is applicable to reasoning from all Scripture. We should remain open-minded, but be able to recognize a closed mind and not let the inevitable end of futile argument overwhelm us.
When I deal with people who refuse to deal honestly with a passage of Scripture, I start asking very simple questions that deal with that dishonesty. If they won't answer the questions, or offer patently absurd answers, I know I'm dealing with one which I should avoid, per Paul's advice. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that I can't enjoy their company in other ways (if they're open to that), but I know then not to allow the Scriptural discussion to degenerate into the problems Paul warns about.
People who like to argue dishonestly tend to dislike answering questions. They typically like to TELL you how it is. So if they refuse to deal with the proper questions, you pretty much will know where the discussion will go.
Thanks Jeff,
Some very insightful and wise advise. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/7/2004 10:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
They debate until they are blue in the face about how right 5 point Calvinism is, and then pray as though they are open theists and handle the problem of evil as though they are open theists.
Thanks
Hi Badge,
I have realized the same thing. People say they believe one way but live or pray like they believe something else. I did exactly the same thing. I wasn't a 5 point calvinist, but I believed that there was a divine blueprint and that I was a very tiny dot on that map - a spec. I did not understand my worth to the Father. I did not know who I was in Him. He had exhaustive divine foreknowledge and meticulous control, but then that meant that He chose not to come to the aide of a little girl (me) who was suffering. He was a Father who intimidated me. I couldn't wrap my mind around a Father who could, but chose not to intervene. He was all powerful. But I couldn't really see Him as all loving. We would sing a song; "There is none Like You" and one of the lines was "suffering children are safe in your arms..." and I just couldn't sing it without wondering what exactly that meant. Two years ago I had an experience similar to Dr Boyds that brought about healing and transformation in my life (Seeing is Believing...chapter 8 by Gregory Boyd) and the result has been a cascade of changes in my life.
Badge, I'm rambling on here, but go easy on those who say one thing and live and pray like they believe another. Most of us have been there at one time or another. Love should supercede all else. I do believe that this view of the Father has radically changed my relationship with Him and with others. I think about how my choices will impact others. I pray differently. I understand evil now in a way that makes sense to me and fits the character of a Father I am growing to understand and love more and more. Now I understand what the line "suffering children are safe in your arms" means and I can sing it with my whole heart. He is ALWAYS seeking to minimize evil and maximize good - in every situation. We are safe in knowing that He fights for us. And ultimately we are safe in His arms.
What I have learned is that loving people is more important than being right. You can have the right theology, but if you do not have love, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You can have the wrong theology and love people and people will be drawn to Christ just because of the love that they see. Jesus said that if we love that we will have fulfilled the whole law.
I try to live what I'm learning. If natural opportunities come up to share little bits and pieces that I believe would encourage - then I will do that. My goal is to love. There is only one other person in the church that I attend who embraces this view. Almost all others have never heard of it.
What people really want is a faith, a theodicy, that works in this life. That is why you hear people proclaiming that God has a divine plan, has exhaustive divine foreknowledge, excercises meticulous control, but they still pray like they believe they can make a difference.
What a difference it made for me to realize that the future is partly open and partly settled. I believe that most people (even 5 point calvinists) live like they believe this.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/8/2004 4:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John,
quote:
"Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his." (John Piper)
John: Actually, it is Piper's straw man misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the Open View that has "a worse problem."
Prayer, in the Open View, is viewed as persuasive, not causative, and certainly not a way to "make" God (or anyone else) do as we wish. In the Open View, the traditional biblical Christian view of prayer as being truly effectual and as availing much (James 5) is what is implied and expressed. It is not a violation of someone's will to pray for them that they might be converted, any more than one "makes" someone else do anything. It is about persuasion, not coercion.
Sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent your view. But then are you saying that we can think of something for God to do in the way of persuasion that he has not thought of yet? Or that God himself is reluctant to save them, and needs to be persuaded to do so?
Prayer is a difficult subject for any view, I think! Most people pray because it's natural to do so, even if they haven't worked out all the implications.
quote:
Jo-Anne: You can have the wrong theology and love people and people will be drawn to Christ just because of the love that they see.
Paul didn't seem real worried about the doctrinal slipups of believers (Php. 3:15). We'll all get there, eventually! And love is what is most important. But they're both important! "Speaking the truth in love"...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/8/2004 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent your view. But then are you saying that we can think of something for God to do in the way of persuasion that he has not thought of yet? Or that God himself is reluctant to save them, and needs to be persuaded to do so?
I don't think it is a matter of God having to come up with something new to do to persuade people; instead, Scripture seems to simply indicate that God is giving more time so that more will have the opportunity to repent (2 Pet. 3:9). Based on the work Christ has already done, I don't think it's fair to say that God is reluctant to save anyone at all. This seems to be yet another straw man mischaracterization of the Open View. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/9/2004 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John,
quote:
I don't think it is a matter of God having to come up with something new to do to persuade people; instead, Scripture seems to simply indicate that God is giving more time so that more will have the opportunity to repent (2 Pet. 3:9). Based on the work Christ has already done, I don't it's fair to say that God is reluctant to save anyone at all. This seems to be yet another straw man mischaracterization of the Open View.
Sorry (again!) I should have stated that less, ah, pejoratively. I didn't think that was actually your view. But I don't see how the Open View makes prayer more meaningful. But doesn't what you just mention amount to saying (just trying to advance the discussion!) that prayer is to cause God to delay some more? So again, it seems we are back to giving God new information, or back to persuading him to be more patient. Though I still don't think you actually subscribe to this.
Also, people do make specific requests of God, more than just for him to delay his judgment. OVers do this too, I expect. So how is this reasonable, according to the Open View?
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/9/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
Christ gave a parable to His disciples about the woman who finally, by persistent petitioning, got a king, who feared neither God nor man, to grant her request. He said, likewise, we are to petition God. It seems like Christ is trying to say that God is "moveable," but that it might require a lot in some cases - kinda of like the idea implied by the fact that the fervent prayer of righteous man availeth much. There is a verse in one of Peter's epistles that says God doesn't hear the prayers of certain? unrighteous persons.
So the real question, to me at least, is - Do we (God and man) have libertarian free-will? If so, then the verses taken perspicuously seem to suggest that effort and obedience can make a difference in the outcome of our prayers. And if this is the case, isn't Openness implied? If not, what am I missing here?
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/9/2004 12:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Christ gave a parable to His disciples about the woman who finally, by persistent petitioning, got a king, who feared neither God nor man, to grant her request. He said, likewise, we are to petition God.
But doesn't this make God like the unjust judge, who has to be worn down? I think this parable teaches that God is quite different.
quote:
So the real question, to me at least, is - Do we (God and man) have libertarian free-will? If so, then the verses taken perspicuously seem to suggest that effort and obedience can make a difference in the outcome of our prayers. And if this is the case, isn't Openness implied?
I don't think the Open View is inconsistent there, if you grant free-will to both God and man (I don't, though). But I wonder about the point of praying, according to the Open View.
I don't think the OV believes this, but it seems that in the OV, prayer boils down to either giving God new information, or persuading him somehow.
Blessings,
Lee
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/9/2004 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sorry (again!) I should have stated that less, ah, pejoratively.
That's okay. We're kind of used to it. 
quote:
I didn't think that was actually your view.
Then why mischaracterize it as you have?
quote:
But I don't see how the Open View makes prayer more meaningful.
To me, the Open View makes prayer more meaningful as compared to the classical theistic view, as in the classical view, whatever will be will be, regardless of human delusions of free will.
quote:
But doesn't what you just mention amount to saying (just trying to advance the discussion!) that prayer is to cause God to delay some more?
Interestingly, the passage in question reveals that our prayers can somehow hasten the day of God:
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
2 Pet 3:11 ¶ Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2 Pet 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
quote:
So again, it seems we are back to giving God new information, or back to persuading him to be more patient. Though I still don't think you actually subscribe to this.
It is not giving God new information, but it does seem that persuading God to be more patient (in some cases, though definitely not in the 2 Pet. passage above) is revealed in Scripture at times as in fact being the case, such as:
Ex 32:11 ¶ Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Ex 32:12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, 'With evil {intent} He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about {doing} harm to Your people.
Ex 32:13 "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit {it} forever.'"
Ex 32:14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. NASB
In the above passage, Moses doesn't present God with NEW information; He simply pleads the case for mercy. (Wow, what a sermon title that would make!)
quote:
Also, people do make specific requests of God, more than just for him to delay his judgment. OVers do this too, I expect. So how is this reasonable, according to the Open View?
It is not clear to me how making specific request of God is UNreasonable, according to the Open View. What leads you to think this?
Have you studied God of the Possible or The God Who Risks?
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/9/2004 9:18 PM (GMT -6) | | The following article by David Basinger discusses some of the practical implications of the Open View:
http://twtministries.com/articles/9_openness/davisb.html | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/9/2004 9:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BADGERVOL
I am not a HUGE Open Theist yet,
Watch those carbs!  Sitting at a computer or reading books all day doesn't tend to help you stay small. | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/10/2004 2:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff and John,
quote:
Jeff: Do you believe God has libertarian free-will?
Not libertarian free-will. I think God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). But I do believe that God can make free choices, yes, I subscribe to that.
I will give my view on prayer! I think God wants us to participate, and that our prayer is part of his plan.
DT 10:10 ... and the Lord listened to me at this time also. It was not his will to destroy you.
I haven't got this all clear in my mind, though...
quote:
John: It is not giving God new information...
Jeff: But the point of the parable may still point to the efficacy of persistence...
John: Interestingly, the passage in question reveals that our prayers can somehow hasten the day of God ... it does seem that persuading God to be more patient is revealed in Scripture at times as in fact being the case ...
All right, if we are not to view prayer as giving God new information (I agree, too!), then how are we to view prayer as persuading God, to hasten or slow down or do anything specific that we want him to do?
Certainly God is not reluctant to do good! Back to the unjust judge parable:
LK 18:8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.
So what is to be overcome in God, when people pray?
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
All right, if we are not to view prayer as giving God new information (I agree, too!), then how are we to view prayer as persuading God, to hasten or slow down or do anything specific that we want him to do?
Certainly God is not reluctant to do good! Back to the unjust judge parable:
LK 18:8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.
So what is to be overcome in God, when people pray?
The prhase "and quickly," in Luke 18:8 may suggest that their prayer does hasten the "justice." So "what is to be overcome in God when people pray?" I think it might be, to some extent, kinda of like this:
Christ said that those to whom much is forgiven, love much. Paul said that God chooses the "base" things that they would boast in the Lord. In these verses we see that God prefers much love and glory/boasting in Him - and that God actually providentially chooses mostly the "base" things to make that "boasting" more likely. (Since I believe in libertarian free-will, I can't believe it is inevitable.) Likewise, God may be more likely to reward the persistent and diligent pray-ers because these will more likely result in greater thanksgiving, which God clearly enjoys. Consider the following scriptural example:
2 Corinthians 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God Which raiseth the dead: Who delivered us from so great a death and doth deliver: in Whom we trust that He will yet deliver us; Ye also helping together by prayer for us that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons, thanks may be given by many on our behalf
2 Corinthians 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, "I believed, and therefore have I spoken;" we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that He Which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might, through the thanksgiving of many, redound to the glory of God.
With respect to praying for such things as wisdom, the seeker or diligent pray-er may be answered because such seekers are more likely to use that wisdom for God's glory - remember Solomon (if I remember correctly, God was impressed with Solomon's desire for wisdom, and therefore gave it to him). Thus, God is commanding us to be diligent to prove we're worthy of having those prayers answered. For the scripture makes it clear that God gives "talents" (being parabolical here) to be used for Him. When they're not, they're taken away.
The argument probably needs to be tweaked a bit, but I hope you can see how I'm using the ideas of libertarian free-will and God's lack of absolute foreknowledge to make my points.
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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 5/11/2004 3:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Lee: then how are we to view prayer as persuading God, to hasten or slow down or do anything specific that we want him to do?
Jeff: With respect to praying for such things as wisdom, the seeker or diligent pray-er may be answered because such seekers are more likely to use that wisdom for God's glory - remember Solomon (if I remember correctly, God was impressed with Solomon's desire for wisdom, and therefore gave it to him). Thus, God is commanding us to be diligent to prove we're worthy of having those prayers answered. For the scripture makes it clear that God gives "talents" (being parabolical here) to be used for Him. When they're not, they're taken away.
This seems to make prayer a way for God to evaluate us, so we are not overcoming a reluctance, we are showing how ready we are for an answer, by our virtues, such as persistence. But I think the unjust judge parable shows that God is always eager to help us, that just belonging to him makes him ready to act, and swiftly.
Everyone who asks receives, those who seek find, he who knocks gets the door open.
We can "ask amiss", to consume it on our lusts (James 4:3). But our virtues doesn't seem to be part of God's reason for answering.
2CO 1:11 Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.
Grace is what we don't deserve...
Blessings,
Lee
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