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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Who grants understanding for salvation? | Forum Quick Jump
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/7/2004 3:46 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
This verse indicates that "some have been granted" and that "some have not been granted" and that Jesus spoke in parables in order not "not grant" and thus prevent the healing of the "some that were not granted" that Isaiah speaks of. As I understand this passage, Jesus seems to indicate that this granting is not the action of the some, but of God the Father whose will and words Jesus gave us. The people didn't direct Jesus to teach in parables, but the Father. The result of this action was that some didn't hear and understand and, thus, were not healed in their heart.
How would the OV look at this verse? I am sure that you have an explanation that makes sense to you.
Spen Lake
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Armchair Theologian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 7/7/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | For starters, Jesus spoke to them in parables in order to fulfill prophecy:
Matthew 13:
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
"I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."
Secondly, He explains how they have stopped up their own eyes and ears:
Matthew 13:
15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
They chose to close their eyes
Zechariah 7:
11 Butthey refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing.
They refused to pay attention
They turned a stubborn shoulder
They stopped their ears from hearing
John 8
43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
They chose to do the desires of their father, the devil
Isaiah 42
19 Who is blind but My servant, Or so deaf as My messenger whom I send? Who is so blind as he that is at peace with Me,
Or so blind as the servant of the LORD?
20 You have seen many things, but you do not observe them; Your ears are open, but none hears.
They chose to not observe what they had seen
Ezekiel 12
2 Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.
A rebellious house refuses to see or hear
Romans 10
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
They choose not to heed the good news
It's incorrect to think God causes Israel's rebellion against Himself (a house divided against itself cannot stand) and then upbraids them and holds them responsible for something He caused.
Genesis 18:25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"
"The LORD said to her,
'Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body'" | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/7/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | | When speaking in parables, Jesus was not hiding truth from sincere seekers, because those who were receptive to spiritual truth understood the illustrations. To others they were only stories without meaning. This allowed Jesus to give spiritual food to those who hungered for it while preventing his enemies from trapping him sooner than they might otherwise have done. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/7/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by cbost6421
spenlake,
I admit that these (and others like it) are the most difficult verses, in my opinion, that Any free-will theist would have a hard time digesting.
I guess that my response is that everytime Jesus healed someone what did He say? He said "Your Faith has healed you". Notice what He didn't say... "you were healed because of understanding that has been granted/imparted by God the Father."
Though I will have to chew on this a while, I would have to say that We must look at God's hardening of hearts, blinding eyes, and not-granting actions correspond with other texts that say He did this because of their choices. Again though, this is not my final answer.
Good Question!
-Chuck
Chuck,
I did a search on "your faith" and there are certainly many verses that speak of this. I don't think, however, that this really addresses the core issue. We "have" certain things such as our body, our ideas, our family, our homes, etc. The fact that some "have faith" doesn't necessarily address the core issue of whether God gave them that faith to have. We believe that God gives us life, bodies, and all that we have. Who can give to God what he has not already received? 1 Cor 4:7 says, "For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" 2 Peter 2 :10 says of mercy and salvation, "for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY."
Once we have received salvation, it becomes "our salvation." The Holy Spirit is the gift of God the Father. We also "have" God's Spirit and God's life living in us and this also is not of ourselves in origin. In any case, the fact that scriptures truly do mention "your faith has healed you" seems to do nothing regarding its origin, just its present location/operation. I could conceive that once we have received God's faith it becomes "our faith" just as the body/life that He has given us becomes "our body/life." Personnaly, I believe that "our faith" is also a gift of God the Father that is activated as we hear the Word of God spoken to us. Do the "dead" have faith that is truly of their own to become healed? Ephesians 2 opens with this exact concept. "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" Somehow, the concept of my having my own faith that was not given to me as life was given to Lazarus seems to imply that I was just "wounded" in my transgressions and sins until I was able to get myself in order to have my faith.
Thus, the "who grants?" still seems to indicate to me that God grants and we receive, not just our healining but even our faith.
Spen Lake
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/8/2004 3:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I think it's worth remembering the first century context in which Jesus ministered.
The Jews were radical about the temple, the sabbath, purity and circumcision. The cohesive glue that kept the Torah, the jew and the land of Israel held together was the religio-political element judiciously administered by (namely) the Pharisees. In this context, Jesus becomes a threat to the system. He seems pro-Torah, but He speaks as one leading the people away from strict adherence to it, which, to do so, could, once again, potentially lead the people into exile.
Jesus' words couched in parables isn't contextualized in determinism--"You get to hear the words and understand them, but you (others) do not. Sorry, that's the way God made it." This wasn't God's point at all in speaking parabolically through the Christ. Rather, there is a delineation being made: those who have an ear to hear of the work the Christ would bring about, let them hear, but they will hear in parables; because others are so trenched in the binding chords of the temple, the Torah, etc., that they cannot hear.
The gospel Jesus preached was not about some getting to go to heaven and some not, or some being made to believe and others being made not able to believe. It was about calling Israel (Jew and Gentile alike) to come into her own, her real eschatological destiny, to follow Jesus out of the confines of the guardian Torah (Galatians 4), and to become the REAL Isreal of God. Not everyone would listen; not everyone could listen. Many were to tied up in the chords of their own Judaistic system.
The means of speaking in parables came about mostly after the Pharisees demeanored the work of the Spirit, and thus the great statement from Jesus about blaspheming the Spirit; an unforgivable act--the act of ultimately rejecting the way of becoming the true Israel of God. It is because of this incident that Jesus began to limit His speaking in parables. Not because some were chosen in eternity past to perish and others were not, but because people are people, in all ages and under all systems. Only those with a heart ready to find the kingdom the way God was setting it up could hear.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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